https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/jun/13/cormac-mccarthy-dead-novelist
Very sad news. One of my two favorite writers. :'(
I've read a few of his novels and found myself pretty disturbed at the level of violence. It is not clear to me what overall "theme" infuses his fiction, except that the heart of the United States is senseless brutality.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 13, 2023, 08:26:40 PMI've read a few of his novels and found myself pretty disturbed at the level of violence. It is not clear to me what overall "theme" infuses his fiction, except that the heart of the United States is senseless brutality.
I've skipped most of his work largely because of that.
Blood Meridian is supposed to be a masterpiece, but descriptions of it make it sound like a more literate version of
The Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
I did read
The Road. Not bad, but I've read better post-apocalyptic stuff.
I've given
Suttree a couple of shots. This is supposed to be McCarthy in more friendly, less bloodthirsty mode. The problem is that he can't resist showing off his vocabulary, which results in a sluggish reading experience. Maybe if I can get past those first couple of chapters I will be able to enjoy it.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 14, 2023, 08:53:10 AMI've skipped most of his work largely because of that. Blood Meridian is supposed to be a masterpiece, but descriptions of it make it sound like a more literate version of The Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
I did read The Road. Not bad, but I've read better post-apocalyptic stuff.
I've given Suttree a couple of shots. This is supposed to be McCarthy in more friendly, less bloodthirsty mode. The problem is that he can't resist showing off his vocabulary, which results in a sluggish reading experience. Maybe if I can get past those first couple of chapters I will be able to enjoy it.
I've read Blood Meridian, which is striking, and the Border Trilogy (which I don't remember much of). It is a unique body of work, but not something I plan to revisit.
BTW my favorite fun fact about Cormac McCarthy. He was born Charles McCarthy, but he changed his name because he didn't want to be confused with a notorious ventriloquist's dummy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_McCarthy
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 14, 2023, 10:25:55 AMBTW my favorite fun fact about Cormac McCarthy. He was born Charles McCarthy, but he changed his name because he didn't want to be confused with a notorious ventriloquist's dummy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_McCarthy
Only to be confused with John Carson's Carnac character. :)
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 13, 2023, 08:26:40 PMI've read a few of his novels and found myself pretty disturbed at the level of violence. It is not clear to me what overall "theme" infuses his fiction, except that the heart of the United States is senseless brutality.
Even just the trailer for
The Road was so oppressively bleak, I've come away with the feeling that I'll only seek his work out if I have an appetite for oppressively bleak. Hasn't happened yet.
Outer Dark is a good Southern gothic horror tale - so dark, but largely within the constraints of genre
Quote from: Karl Henning on June 14, 2023, 11:19:37 AMEven just the trailer for The Road was so oppressively bleak, I've come away with the feeling that I'll only seek his work out if I have an appetite for oppressively bleak. Hasn't happened yet.
And yet... all that Pettersson! ;)
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 13, 2023, 08:26:40 PMI've read a few of his novels and found myself pretty disturbed at the level of violence. It is not clear to me what overall "theme" infuses his fiction, except that the heart of the United States is senseless brutality.
You'd better not read the Iliad then.
Quote from: Luke on June 14, 2023, 11:50:45 AMAnd yet... all that Pettersson! ;)
Hah! My Pettersson listening has been selective and broadly spaced. For instance, although I've bookmarked the Viola Concerto, I've not set to listening, yet ....
Quote from: Mandryka on June 14, 2023, 12:02:35 PMYou'd better not read the Iliad then.
I've read it more than once. I don't live in Ancient Troy and don't have to worry about being disemboweled in my sleep by Agamemnon.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 14, 2023, 12:36:24 PMI've read it more than once. I don't live in Ancient Troy and don't have to worry about being disemboweled in my sleep by Agamemnon.
You likewise do not have to worry about Glanton's gang scalping you then claiming it came from an Apache so they could claim a Mexican bounty
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 14, 2023, 08:53:10 AMI've skipped most of his work largely because of that. Blood Meridian is supposed to be a masterpiece, but descriptions of it make it sound like a more literate version of The Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
I did read The Road. Not bad, but I've read better post-apocalyptic stuff.
I've given Suttree a couple of shots. This is supposed to be McCarthy in more friendly, less bloodthirsty mode. The problem is that he can't resist showing off his vocabulary, which results in a sluggish reading experience. Maybe if I can get past those first couple of chapters I will be able to enjoy it.
Different strokes ...
I find his writing deeply evocative, endlessly fascinating, and ultimately, persuasive. I rank him with Faulkner. The violence does not bother me, and in BM, is a theme of man's nature. The book opens with three quotes, one of which describes a prehistoric murder: "Clark, who led last year's expedition to the Afar region of northern Ethiopia, and UC Berkeley colleague Tim D. White, also said that a re-examination of a 300,000 year old fossil skull found in the same region earlier shows evidence of having been scalped." The Yuma Daily Sun, June 13, 1982.
Maybe one has to have grown up in the South to appreciate that violence is simply a fact of life.
Blood Meridian is my favorite book of his, but I have enjoyed all of his novels, until
The Road. I much prefer his novels placed in the 19th century, or early 20th century, South or West, and am not a fan of any futuristic apocalyptic fiction.
Quote from: San Antone on June 14, 2023, 12:47:31 PMDifferent strokes ...
I find his writing deeply evocative, endlessly fascinating, and ultimately, persuasive. I rank him with Faulkner. The violence does not bother me, and in BM, is a theme of man's nature. The book opens with three quotes, one of which describes a prehistoric murder: "Clark, who led last year's expedition to the Afar region of northern Ethiopia, and UC Berkeley colleague Tim D. White, also said that a re-examination of a 300,000 year old fossil skull found in the same region earlier shows evidence of having been scalped." The Yuma Daily Sun, June 13, 1982.
Maybe one has to have grown up in the South to appreciate that violence is simply a fact of life.
Blood Meridian is my favorite book of his, but I have enjoyed all of his novels, until The Road. I much prefer his novels placed in the 19th century, or early 20th century, South or West, and am not a fan of any futuristic apocalyptic fiction.
Although the sort of lawless violence described in Blood Meridian would have been very familiar to anyone on the frontiers North of the Mason Dixon line in the 18th century
Quote from: BWV 1080 on June 14, 2023, 12:43:32 PMYou likewise do not have to worry about Glanton's gang scalping you then claiming it came from an Apache so they could claim a Mexican bounty
Correct, I live in Chumash territory.
Quote from: San Antone on June 14, 2023, 12:47:31 PMMaybe one has to have grown up in the South to appreciate that violence is simply a fact of life.
I grew up in The Bronx. :)
I knew someone who was pals with him when she was a fellow at the Santa Fee Institute (a scientist). Apparently he was a charming guy, despite the dark stuff that was rattling around in his brain.
Maybe I'll put McCarthy in my BookBub list and see if any irresistible bargains pop up...
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 15, 2023, 04:33:38 AMCorrect, I live in Chumash territory.
I grew up in The Bronx. :)
I knew someone who was pals with him when she was a fellow at the Santa Fee Institute (a scientist). Apparently he was a charming guy, despite the dark stuff that was rattling around in his brain.
Maybe I'll put McCarthy in my BookBub list and see if any irresistible bargains pop up...
You could try All the Pretty Horses. It's got all the McCarthy trademarks but is somewhat less overwhelmingly bleak and violent than, say, Blood Meridian. A beautiful book.
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 15, 2023, 01:24:41 PMYou could try All the Pretty Horses. It's got all the McCarthy trademarks but is somewhat less overwhelmingly bleak and violent than, say, Blood Meridian. A beautiful book.
As I wrote somewhere above, I've also read the border trilogy, but had no recollection of it. Reading the wikipedia entry, the plots outlines seem familiar. I was thinking of trying the Border trilogy, but I got rid of the hardcopy version I had (Hardcover "Everyman Edition" donated to Good Will, probably). I'm not anxious to pay full price. As I said, if BookBub turns up a deal I may spring for it.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 15, 2023, 02:34:41 PMAs I wrote somewhere above, I've also read the border trilogy, but had no recollection of it. Reading the wikipedia entry, the plots outlines seem familiar. I was thinking of trying the Border trilogy, but I got rid of the hardcopy version I had (Hardcover "Everyman Edition" donated to Good Will, probably). I'm not anxious to pay full price. As I said, if BookBub turns up a deal I may spring for it.
As much as I love McCarthy, I'm not sure the Border trilogy really works as a trilogy. But that first book is amazing.
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 15, 2023, 02:49:36 PMAs much as I love McCarthy, I'm not sure the Border trilogy really works as a trilogy. But that first book is amazing.
That's where I would start, in any case. At the time (more than 10 years ago, I'm sure) I had enough interest to read all three. They were collected in one volume so the barrier was low to continuing.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 15, 2023, 03:55:40 PMThat's where I would start, in any case. At the time (more than 10 years ago, I'm sure) I had enough interest to read all three. They were collected in one volume so the barrier was low to continuing.
Maybe worth another shot, I think. Especially knowing how much you love Faulkner.
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 15, 2023, 07:28:49 PMMaybe worth another shot, I think. Especially knowing how much you love Faulkner.
Oddly, I never noticed a connection between the two.
I've read The Road and it was good but unoriginal. But McCarthy's choice to emulate Joyce and not bother with proper punctuation is just pretentious. And his decision to hold himself aloof from all other writers is arrogant. He is a very good writer, but none of his novels are Ulysses.
My most recent encounter with McCarthy was from my colleague asking me to explain the Physics in his recent novels. They were accurately written, but I also had a feeling that McCarthy was just showing off.
I still want to read Blood Meridian.
Quote from: DavidW on June 16, 2023, 07:04:37 AMMy most recent encounter with McCarthy was from my colleague asking me to explain the Physics in his recent novels. They were accurately written, but I also had a feeling that McCarthy was just showing off.
Presumably got it from hanging out with my friend (and other phycicists) at the Santa Fe institute. :)
Quote from: DavidW on June 16, 2023, 07:04:37 AMBut McCarthy's choice to emulate Joyce and not bother with proper punctuation is just pretentious.
I agree. Pretentious and pointless. At first I thought he was trying to make some point about post-apocalyptic degradation of language, but he doesn't do it consistently or forcefully enough, so it just looks sloppy.
QuoteAnd his decision to hold himself aloof from all other writers is arrogant.
I don't have a problem with this at all. A lot of writers are reclusive or antisocial; it kind of goes with the territory.
Quote from: DavidW on June 16, 2023, 07:04:37 AMI've read The Road and it was good but unoriginal. But McCarthy's choice to emulate Joyce and not bother with proper punctuation is just pretentious.
Dont recall any of Cormac's books not using proper punctuation, he just does not use quotation marks to note dialog, which is OK. His punctuation rules have circulated around the web:
Quote1. Quotation Marks:
McCarthy doesn't use 'em. In his Oprah interview, he says MacKinlay Kantor was the first writer he read who left them out. McCarthy stresses that this way of writing dialogue requires particular deliberation. Speaking of writers who have imitated him, he says, "You really have to be aware that there are no quotation marks, and write in such a way as to guide people as to who's speaking." Otherwise, confusion reigns.
2. Colons and semicolons:
Careful McCarthy reader Oprah says she "saw a colon once" in McCarthy's prose, but she never encountered a semicolon. McCarthy confirms: "No semicolons."
Of the colon, he says: "You can use a colon, if you're getting ready to give a list of something that follows from what you just said. Like, these are the reasons." This is a specific occasion that does not present itself often. The colon, one might say, genuflects to a very specific logical development, enumeration. McCarthy deems most other punctuation uses needless.
3. All other punctuation:
Aside from his restrictive rationing of the colon, McCarthy declares his stylistic convictions with simplicity: "I believe in periods, in capitals, in the occasional comma, and that's it." It's a discipline he learned first in a college English class, where he worked to simplify 18th century essays for a textbook the professor was editing. Early modern English is notoriously cluttered with confounding punctuation, which did not become standardized until comparatively recently.
https://www.openculture.com/2013/08/cormac-mccarthys-punctuation-rules.html
Quote from: BWV 1080 on June 16, 2023, 11:42:09 AMDont recall any of Cormac's books not using proper punctuation, he just does not use quotation marks to note dialog, which is OK.
At least in
The Road, he shuns apostrophes, but he's inconsistent. Thus he writes "dont" and "cant," but "I'm" and "we're." I find it rather annoying.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 16, 2023, 11:57:16 AMAt least in The Road, he shuns apostrophes, but he's inconsistent. Thus he writes "dont" and "cant," but "I'm" and "we're." I find it rather annoying.
I haven't been able to make sense of that either, unless for some reason he has deemed that conjunctions of "not" don't deserve an apostrophe while conjunctions of the "to be" verb do. Perhaps it's because those conjunctions are both pronoun and verb? I'm not sure—or should I say I dont know?
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 16, 2023, 04:14:17 PMI'm not sure—or should I say I dont know?
I dont know either - cant figure it out.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 16, 2023, 11:57:16 AMAt least in The Road, he shuns apostrophes, but he's inconsistent. Thus he writes "dont" and "cant," but "I'm" and "we're." I find it rather annoying.
I find your criticism trivial; many 20th century authors took liberties with spelling, punctuation, and grammar, as well as some making up words entirely. (McCarthy's stye is mild compared to some.)
Just admit it, you are not a fan - but your dislike is not relevant to his stylistic decisions.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 16, 2023, 04:46:58 PMI dont know either - cant figure it out.
Were (we're) in the same boat. See that doesn't work.
I agree that refusing to use standard punctuation is irritating and pretentious.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 16, 2023, 05:50:50 PMWere (we're) in the same boat. See that doesn't work.
I agree that refusing to use standard punctuation is irritating and pretentious.
I am frankly surprised at the reaction to these kinds of stylistic aspects. You and others strike me as fuddy-duddies. :D
It has been a well established practice with authors, of a more adventurous bent, to depart from conventional practice concerning punctuation, and other aspects of writing prose, for more than a century.
I find it a creative choice open to a writer, and enjoy these quirky liberties.
Quote from: San Antone on June 16, 2023, 05:47:51 PMI find your criticism trivial; many 20th century authors took liberties [etc.]
Well yes, my criticism
is trivial; its a very minor aspect of the book, but I still think its worth commenting on, because hes made a peculiar stylistic choice and I dont think it adds anything worthwhile to the story.
If (for instance) he had done something like what Russell Hoban did in
Riddley Walker (another postapocalyptic novel), where the damaged language reflects the shattered world of the novel, I could understand and applaud that. But he doesnt do that.
I guess there is some cognitive dissonance in my view of McCarthy. I've read Blood Meridian, All the Spotted Horses, The Crossing, Cities of the Plain, No Country for Old Men, and The Road. I must have found something to interest me if I continued reading all of those books. But I find myself not attracted. Maybe because the last books I read, No Country for Old Men and The Road, soured me on McCarthy.
Sad news. I have enjoyed (perhaps the wrong word) several of his books.
QuoteAll the Spotted Horses
.
... Pretty ...
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 16, 2023, 06:46:27 PMWell yes, my criticism is trivial; its a very minor aspect of the book, but I still think its worth commenting on, because hes made a peculiar stylistic choice and I dont think it adds anything worthwhile to the story.
If (for instance) he had done something like what Russell Hoban did in Riddley Walker (another postapocalyptic novel), where the damaged language reflects the shattered world of the novel, I could understand and applaud that. But he doesnt do that.
I don't find the lack of apostrophes in your post distracting and had never actually noticed it in McCarthy
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 17, 2023, 06:05:38 AMBrain fart.
This is when you realize you had your handle wrong all this time! ;D
I've only read two McCarthy novels, Suttree and The Road.
I read Suttree over a decade ago and admired it rather than loved it, but admired it in a good way. The language conjured up atmosphere and setting distinctively, often with laser-like focus on minutiae, which meant visits to arcane regions of the dictionary, sometimes to great effect, sometimes slightly wearingly so. But no doubting his facility with words and his striking gift as a writer.
I did try and pick it up again a while ago and found I no longer had the desire to wade through the ornate language and gave up a short way in. The dialogue though I still found very arresting, and have absolutely no problem with the absence of speech marks as some here do. It not only worked, with characters emerging very vividly, but added sth too I think.
The Road I liked, I thought it had a quiet kind of poetry about it. Much less dense prose too. Though again I never quite felt the sense of involvement that I get when I love a book.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 16, 2023, 06:46:27 PMWell yes, my criticism is trivial; its a very minor aspect of the book, but I still think its worth commenting on, because hes made a peculiar stylistic choice and I dont think it adds anything worthwhile to the story.
If (for instance) he had done something like what Russell Hoban did in Riddley Walker (another postapocalyptic novel), where the damaged language reflects the shattered world of the novel, I could understand and applaud that. But he doesnt do that.
McCarthy's personal style is just an idiosyncratic thing. It has nothing to do with the postapocalyptic subject matter of the book. He omits these apostrophes in a number of his books. Applaud it or not, it's there, and as has been admitted, it is a minor aspect in any case that ought not to detract from the reading experience, unless one is a real stickler for perfect grammar. Question: would you fault a poet, like e. e. cummings for their example, for unorthodox style as well?
Quote from: Iota on June 17, 2023, 06:25:00 AMI've only read two McCarthy novels, Suttree and The Road.
I read Suttree over a decade ago and admired it rather than loved it, but admired it in a good way. The language conjured up atmosphere and setting distinctively, often with laser-like focus on minutiae, which meant visits to arcane regions of the dictionary, sometimes to great effect, sometimes slightly wearingly so. But no doubting his facility with words and his striking gift as a writer.
I do want to give
Suttree another shot. The language struck me as unnecessarily ornate, but maybe I'll get used to it.
I don't have a problem with absence of speech marks, either. As long as it's done in an intelligible fashion, it shouldn't be a problem.
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 17, 2023, 06:28:22 AMQuestion: would you fault a poet, like e. e. cummings for their example, for unorthodox style as well?
Paradoxically, my problem with McCarthy's apostrophobia is that it doesn't go far
enough. It looks like a random tic, or bad editing, rather than an element of style. Note for instance that BWV 1080 above didn't even notice the lack of apostrophes in my previous post - it left no impression. In the case of ee cummings or various other experimental writers, they use their style(s) in a more comprehensive and thorough way.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 17, 2023, 08:01:51 AMI do want to give Suttree another shot. The language struck me as unnecessarily ornate, but maybe I'll get used to it.
I don't have a problem with absence of speech marks, either. As long as it's done in an intelligible fashion, it shouldn't be a problem.
Paradoxically, my problem with McCarthy's apostrophobia is that it doesn't go far enough. It looks like a random tic, or bad editing, rather than an element of style. Note for instance that BWV 1080 above didn't even notice the lack of apostrophes in my previous post - it left no impression. In the case of ee cummings or various other experimental writers, they use their style(s) in a more comprehensive and thorough way.
I don't think McCarthy's omission of apostrophes in words like "dont" or "wont" has any kind of experimental or revolutionary intent. It's just an idiosyncrasy among many of his personal style. Taking issue with it for not taking it "far enough" seems to be missing the point.
Edit: As I reread this post and the past few in this page, I realize how silly it is, if not flat out disrespectful, to be engaging in a debate about apostrophes in a memorial thread to a great writer. So this is the last I will say on the matter.
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 17, 2023, 09:19:08 AMAs I reread this post and the past few in this page, I realize how silly it is, if not flat out disrespectful, to be engaging in a debate about apostrophes in a memorial thread to a great writer. So this is the last I will say on the matter.
My feeling exactly. Instead of a place where we could have expressed our sadness over the loss of a favorite writer - we read instead carping about trivialities and a list of all the reasons why some never liked his books.
::)
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 13, 2023, 08:26:40 PMI've read a few of his novels and found myself pretty disturbed at the level of violence. It is not clear to me what overall "theme" infuses his fiction, except that the heart of the United States is senseless brutality.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 14, 2023, 12:02:35 PMYou'd better not read the Iliad then.
Well I was speaking in jest, but I've started reading Blood Meridian and I've come across this description of a battle -- worthy of Homer IMO. Really impressive!
The company was now come to a halt and the first shots were fired and the gray riflesmoke rolled through the dust as the lancers breached their ranks. The kid's horse sank beneath him with a long pneumatic sigh. He had already fired his rifle and now he sat on the ground and fumbled with his shotpouch. A man near him sat with an arrow hanging out of his neck. He was bent slightly as if in prayer. The kid would have reached for the bloody hoop-iron point but then he saw that the man wore another arrow in his breast to the fletching and he was dead. Everywhere there were horses down and men scrambling and he saw a man who sat charging his rifle while blood ran from his ears and he saw men with their revolvers disassembled trying to fit the spare loaded cylinders they carried and he saw men kneeling who tilted and clasped their shadows on the ground and he saw men lanced and caught up by the hair and scalped standing and he saw the horses of war trample down the fallen and a little whitefaced pony with one clouded eye leaned out of the murk and snapped at him like a dog and was gone. Among the wounded some seemed dumb and without understanding and some were pale through the masks of dust and some had fouled themselves or tottered brokenly onto the spears of the savages. Now driving in a wild frieze of headlong horses with eyes walled and teeth cropped and naked riders with clusters of arrows clenched in their jaws and their shields winking in the dust and up the far side of the ruined ranks in a piping of boneflutes and dropping down off the sides of their mounts with one heel hung in the withers strap and their short bows flexing beneath the outstretched necks of the ponies until they had circled the company and cut their ranks in two and then rising up again like funhouse figures, some with nightmare faces painted on their breasts, riding down the unhorsed Saxons and spearing and clubbing them and leaping from their mounts with knives and running about on the ground with a peculiar bandylegged trot like creatures driven to alien forms of locomotion and stripping the clothes from the dead and seizing them up by the hair and passing their blades about the skulls of the living and the dead alike and snatching aloft the bloody wigs and hacking and chopping at the naked bodies, ripping off limbs, heads, gutting the strange white torsos and holding up great handfuls of viscera, genitals, some of the savages so slathered up with gore they might have rolled in it like dogs and some who fell upon the dying and sodomized them with loud cries to their fellows. And now the horses of the dead came pounding out of the smoke and dust and circled with flapping leather and wild manes and eyes whited with fear like the eyes of the blind and some were feathered with arrows and some lanced through and stumbling and vomiting blood as they wheeled across the killing ground and clattered from sight again. Dust stanched the wet and naked heads of the scalped who with the fringe of hair below their wounds and tonsured to the bone now lay like maimed and naked monks in the bloodslaked dust and everywhere the dying groaned and gibbered and horses lay screaming.
The book is riddled with passages like that, like to the point you're going to get sick of them. But it's an amazing book and well worth a read or two (I didn't like it the first time, loved it the second).
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 01, 2023, 04:42:04 AMThe book is riddled with passages like that, like to the point you're going to get sick of them.
Exactly like The Iliad. And in the Iliad, possibly in Blood Meridian too, there's the question: what's the author trying to achieve with this accumulation of gore?
Anyway, it's an impressive book - I know nothing about the context, absolutely nothing, and it's still impressive.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 01, 2023, 04:58:07 AMExactly like The Iliad. And in the Iliad, possibly in Blood Meridian too, there's the question: what's the author trying to achieve with this accumulation of gore?
Anyway, it's an impressive book - I know nothing about the context, absolutely nothing, and it's still impressive.
Now you're making me want to read Homer.
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 01, 2023, 05:24:59 AMNow you're making me want to read Homer.
Lots of stuff like this
There—Pirithous' son the rugged Polypoetes
skewered Damasus, pierced his bronze-sided helmet.
None of the bronze plate could hold it, boring through
the metal and skull the brazen spearpoint pounded,
Damasus' brains splattered all inside his casque—
Polypoetes beat him down despite the Trojan's rage,
then Pylon and Ormenus, killed and stripped them both.
And the tested veteran Leonteus speared Hippomachus,
gouged Antimachus' offspring down across the belt,
then drawing his long sharp sword from its sheath
he rushed the front and took Antiphates first
with a quick thrust, stabbing at close range—
he slammed on his back, sprawled along the ground.
Then Menon, Orestes, Iamenus—Leonteus killed the lot,
crowding corpse on corpse on the earth that rears us all.
Achilles speared him square in the back where his war-belt clasped,
golden buckles clinching both halves of his breastplate
straight on through went the point and out the navel,
down on his knees he dropped
screaming shrill as the world went black before him
clutched his bowels to his body, hunched and sank
But Meriones caught him in full retreat, hed let fly
with a bronze-tipped arrow, hitting his right buttock
up under the pelvic bone so the lance pierced the bladder.
He sank on the spot, hunched in his dear companion's arms,
gasping out his life as he writhed along the ground
like an earthworm stretched out in death, blood pooling,
soaking the earth dark red. . .
Quote from: Mandryka on July 01, 2023, 08:50:46 AMLots of stuff like this
There—Pirithous' son the rugged Polypoetes
skewered Damasus, pierced his bronze-sided helmet.
None of the bronze plate could hold it, boring through
the metal and skull the brazen spearpoint pounded,
Damasus' brains splattered all inside his casque—
Polypoetes beat him down despite the Trojan's rage,
then Pylon and Ormenus, killed and stripped them both.
And the tested veteran Leonteus speared Hippomachus,
gouged Antimachus' offspring down across the belt,
then drawing his long sharp sword from its sheath
he rushed the front and took Antiphates first
with a quick thrust, stabbing at close range—
he slammed on his back, sprawled along the ground.
Then Menon, Orestes, Iamenus—Leonteus killed the lot,
crowding corpse on corpse on the earth that rears us all.
Achilles speared him square in the back where his war-belt clasped,
golden buckles clinching both halves of his breastplate
straight on through went the point and out the navel,
down on his knees he dropped
screaming shrill as the world went black before him
clutched his bowels to his body, hunched and sank
But Meriones caught him in full retreat, hed let fly
with a bronze-tipped arrow, hitting his right buttock
up under the pelvic bone so the lance pierced the bladder.
He sank on the spot, hunched in his dear companion's arms,
gasping out his life as he writhed along the ground
like an earthworm stretched out in death, blood pooling,
soaking the earth dark red. . .
How many people die, these days "clutching his bowels to his body?" More likely in a hospital bed connected to a web of tubes, the last thing you hear is the faint beeping of an alert on some sort of medical monitoring equipment. Maybe the closest equivalent having your ribs broken by some idiot performing CPR, because you neglected to sign a DNR order.
Anyway, I remember reading passages like that. I guess the thing that motivated me to read (and re-read) the Illiad was to appreciate the worldview of people who lived thousands of years ago, guided by a completely different understanding of the world. Among other things, they did not shirk the visceral aspects of human anatomy. I remember a passage where Odysseus sneaks into the enemy camp and slaughters soldiers as they sleep, and it was depicted as heroic, rather than cowardly, as it might be in our current style of glorifying violence.
The Iliad is fascinating and mysterious in many ways. I rememeber reading commentary where there is some evidence of factual accuracy, in that the combatants are depicted using bronze weapons, outdated when the epics were apparently written down, although other passages refer to iron weapons, which hadn't been invented at then presumed time of the Trojan War.
(I'm a Lattimore guy.)
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 02, 2023, 07:47:01 AMAnyway, I remember reading passages like that. I guess the thing that motivated me to read (and re-read) the Illiad was to appreciate the worldview of people who lived thousands of years ago, guided by a completely different understanding of the world. Among other things, they did not shirk the visceral aspects of human anatomy. I remember a passage where Odysseus sneaks into the enemy camp and slaughters soldiers as they sleep, and it was depicted as heroic, rather than cowardly, as it might be in our current style of glorifying violence.
I have four translations, Butler, Fagles, Fitzgerald and Lattimore. I prefer Fagles.
We recently saw an 90 minute one-man show based on the Iliad (http://www.tntechoracle.com/2023/06/22/ttu-faculty-present-an-iliad-as-first-production-for-new-theater-company/),
An Iliad, told from the stand point of "The Poet." The play is made up of a monologue, including some Iliad quotes, about war in general and man's propensity for violence throughout history.
We enjoyed it, and the actor did an amazing job with the text.
Why Do We Accept Cormac McCarthy's Self-Mythology? (https://plus.thebulwark.com/p/why-do-we-accept-cormac-mccarthys)
Quote from: Karl Henning on July 04, 2023, 07:58:42 AMWhy Do We Accept Cormac McCarthy's Self-Mythology? (https://plus.thebulwark.com/p/why-do-we-accept-cormac-mccarthys)
I almost did not read the article you linked. From the title I thought it might be a hit piece (I have no tolerance for those who take pot shots at McCarthy). But I am glad I went ahead and took a stab at it.
He has been a long time favorite author of mine, and I've ignored much about his biography, taking pleasure in the books - which has been enough.
The article was nicely done, and provided me with at least one quote which I found worth the entire piece: "A fuller narrative still gives us someone who worked hard, ignoring many of the personal and interpersonal costs of his radical commitment; someone who eventually got what he deserved to earn, and then some; someone whose money and fame did not appear to change him; someone who kept writing great novels on a $20 typewriter."
Quote from: San Antone on July 04, 2023, 09:00:34 AMI almost did not read the article you linked. From the title I thought it might be a hit piece (I have no tolerance for those who take pot shots at McCarthy). But I am glad I went ahead and took a stab at it.
He has been a long time favorite author of mine, and I've ignored much about his biography, taking pleasure in the books - which has been enough.
The article was nicely done, and provided me with at least one quote which I found worth the entire piece: "A fuller narrative still gives us someone who worked hard, ignoring many of the personal and interpersonal costs of his radical commitment; someone who eventually got what he deserved to earn, and then some; someone whose money and fame did not appear to change him; someone who kept writing great novels on a $20 typewriter."
A good article, I agree. For me, especially informative. I understand the misdoubt whether it might be a hit piece.
Quote from: San Antone on July 04, 2023, 09:00:34 AMsomeone who kept writing great novels on a $20 typewriter.
Maybe I'm the only one who remembers it, but Russell Baker, The New York Times Columnist (and author of a wonderful autobiography, Growing Up) wrote a column in which is said he was going to switch from his typewriter to a word processor. In mid paragraph the style abruptly switch from his usually succinct, elegant prose, to grotesquely discursive, rambling run-on sentences. Probably good that McCarthy stuck with his typewriter. I read that Joyce Carol Oats still writes novels in longhand.
Having just finished Blood Meridian, I'll post something here.
The question I have is whether it is a story book which keeps the reader hooked because of the language style and the gruesomeness. Or whether there is more to it than that. It's clear that it has pretentions to be more than that, but at the moment I can't make head nor tail of it.
That being said, something the Judge says at the end seems to me to maybe contain a bit of real insight
That man there. See him. That man hatless. You know his opinion of the world. You can read it in his face, in his stance. Yet his complaint that a man's life is no bargain masks the actual case with him. Which is that men will not do as he wishes them to. Have never done, never will do. That's the way of things with him and his life is so balked about by difficulty and become so altered of its intended architecture that he is little more than a walking hovel hardly fit to house the human spirit at all. Can he say, such a man, that there is no malign thing set against him? That there is no power and no force and no cause? What manner of heretic could doubt agency and claimant alike? Can he believe that the wreckage of his existence is unentailed? No liens, no creditors? That gods of vengeance and of compassion alike lie sleeping in their crypt and whether our cries are for an accounting or for the destruction of the ledgers altogether they must evoke only the same silence and that it is this silence which will prevail? To whom is he talking, man? Cant you see him?
The man was indeed muttering to himself and peering bale-fully about the room wherein it seemed there was no friend to him.
Here's something that happens towards the end -- is it just pretentious? The "he" is the person referred to elsewhere as "the kid", but who is, I think, now mature.
He went down the walkboard toward the jakes. He stood outside listening to the voices fading away and he looked again at the silent tracks of the stars where they died over the darkened hills. Then he opened the rough board door of the jakes and stepped in.
The judge was seated upon the closet. He was naked and he rose up smiling and gathered him in his arms against his immense and terrible flesh and shot the wooden barlatch home behind him. . . . n the mudded dogyard behind the premises two men went down the boards toward the jakes. A third man was standing there urinating into the mud.
Is someone in there? the first man said.
The man who was relieving himself did not look up. I wouldnt go in there if I was you, he said.
Is there somebody in there?
I wouldnt go in.
He hitched himself up and buttoned his trousers and stepped past them and went up the walk toward the lights. The first man watched him go and then opened the door of the jakes.
Good God almighty, he said.
What is it?
He didnt answer. He stepped past the other and went back up the walk. The other man stood looking after him. Then he opened the door and looked in. . . .
Quote from: Mandryka on July 09, 2023, 07:54:51 AMHaving just finished Blood Meridian, I'll post something here.
The question I have is whether it is a story book which keeps the reader hooked because of the language style and the gruesomeness. Or whether there is more to it than that. It's clear that it has pretentions to be more than that, but at the moment I can't make head nor tail of it.
Horror is a legit theme in and of itself. If I would criticize Blood Meridian on anything, it would be the Judge serving as a vehicle for McCarthy's philosophical musings. In reality, people who commit these acts are just boring psychopaths, but its a bad stereotype in movies and novels to make them something more
Well it's not like the Judge is pnly a mouthpiece for McCormac's "philosophy" - he has a structural role to play in the narrative. It looks like a Bildungsroman, and the Judge is a key figure in the Kid's development - and he does develop, but I'm not sure I can say how.
I'm 40% through All The Pretty Horses now - not impressed! But I'll stay with it a bit longer to see what happens in prison.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 12, 2023, 10:50:32 AMWell it's not like the Judge is pnly a mouthpiece for McCormac's "philosophy" - he has a structural role to play in the narrative. It looks like a Bildungsroman, and the Judge is a key figure in the Kid's development - and he does develop, but I'm not sure I can say how.
I'm 40% through All The Pretty Horses now - not impressed! But I'll stay with it a bit longer to see what happens in prison.
Its been a while since I read the book, but I recall Judge Holden as the main protagonist with The Kid only providing a view for the reader. McCarthy gravitates to these 'evil archetype' characters, like the Judge or Chigurh in No Country for Old Men.
This appears to be the sole historical source material for Judge Holden:
QuoteThe second in command, now left in charge of the camp, was a man of gigantic size called "Judge" Holden of Texas. Who or what he was no one knew but a cooler blooded villain never went unhung; he stood six feet six in his moccasins, had a large fleshy frame, a dull tallow colored face destitute of hair and all expression. His desires was blood and women, and terrible stories were circulated in camp of horrid crimes committed by him when bearing another name, in the Cherokee nation and Texas; and before we left Fronteras a little girl of ten years was found in the chapperal, foully violated and murdered. The mark of a huge hand on her little throat pointed him out as the ravisher as no other man had such a hand, but though all suspected, no one charged him with the crime.
Holden was by far the best educated man in northern Mexico; he conversed with all in their own language, spoke in several Indian lingos, at a fandango would take the Harp or the Guitar from the hands of the musicians and charm all with his wonderful performance and out-waltz any poblana of the ball. He was "plum center" with a rifle or revolver, a daring horseman, acquainted with the nature of all the strange plants and their botanical names, great in geology and mineralogy, in short another Admirable Crichton, and with all an arrant coward.
Not but that he possessed enough courage to fight Indians and Mexicans or anyone else where he had the advantage in strength, skill, and weapons. But where the combat would be equal, he would avoid it if possible. I hated him at first sight and he knew it, yet nothing could be more gentle and kind than his deportment towards me: He would often seek conversation with me and speak of Massachusetts and to my astonishment I found he knew more about Boston than I did. [sic][5]
When I read it my impression of the Judge was essentially a personification of man's worst appetites, but I think more particularly he is used to embody the excesses of American expansionism. The secondary literature on Blood Meridian that I have read seems to show a consensus of interpretation regarding the Judge as the Devil, although Harold Bloom for example argues he is beyond any particular culture or mythology.
Quote from: Crudblud on July 12, 2023, 12:01:25 PMWhen I read it my impression of the Judge was essentially a personification of man's worst appetites, but I think more particularly he is used to embody the excesses of American expansionism. The secondary literature on Blood Meridian that I have read seems to show a consensus of interpretation regarding the Judge as the Devil, although Harold Bloom for example argues he is beyond any particular culture or mythology.
That's where I would criticize McCarthy, does not take much reading of either history or current events to realize how depressingly common psychopaths like Judge Holden are. Even worse would be making the Judge some sort of symbol of America, like somehow we have a monopoly on this sort of violence.
The Judge is described as being fluent in a number of languages, playing the violin, dancing, all excellently: "He masters everything he puts his hand to," demonstrated with the scene of making gunpowder - as well as many others.
It is superficial to call him a common psychopath, and dismisses McCarthy's prose mastery. There are extended descriptions of the group riding through the country which are some of the best writing I've ever read. Poetic prose.
To describe the book as a violent celebration of a psychopath completely misreads it.
Quote from: San Antone on July 12, 2023, 12:30:35 PMThe Judge is described as being fluent in a number of languages, playing the violin, dancing, all excellently: "He masters everything he puts his hand to," demonstrated with the scene of making gunpowder - as well as many others.
Sure, but the talented psychopath is not unusual, Oskar Direlwanger had a PhD, their is Jimmy Saville or James Levine etc
QuoteIt is superficial to call him a common psychopath, and dismisses McCarthy's prose mastery.
psychopaths are common, but dont see how criticizing one aspect of the book dismisses other aspects
QuoteThere are extended descriptions of the group riding through the country which are some of the best writing I've ever read. Poetic prose.
dont disagree, also the Comanche attack
QuoteTo describe the book as a violent celebration of a psychopath completely misreads it.
Of course that was not what I said, curious that you interpret it that way.
I'm not sure I'm right about this, but I think a bit of close reading would show that McCarthy is at pains to give The Judge a strange, other worldly, aura. Some of his behaviour is psychopathic (like killing the little Apache boy) - but he's hardly the biggest psychopath in the novel.
The landscape writing is indeed magnificent
@San AntoneCan you put me on to some good secondary literature
@Crudblud ?
I'm trying to find a bit which really left a mark on me, but I can't. The Kid sees an old lady alone in the desert, at the scene of a massacre. He goes to help her, to get her out of there and save her. He speaks to her, offering her help. He touches her, and finds she is already long dead, just an empty shell.
One reason I think it's "about" the kid's development is that he, maybe more than any others, seems to manifest humanity, kindness. But of course The Judge can be kind - he saved The Imbecile from drowning. And so can the others (maybe, more close reading required!)
Quote from: Mandryka on July 12, 2023, 10:50:32 AMWell it's not like the Judge is pnly a mouthpiece for McCormac's "philosophy" - he has a structural role to play in the narrative. It looks like a Bildungsroman, and the Judge is a key figure in the Kid's development - and he does develop, but I'm not sure I can say how.
I'm 40% through All The Pretty Horses now - not impressed! But I'll stay with it a bit longer to see what happens in prison.
Too bad. I really liked that one; the way McCarthy writes about the north Mexican scenery is very evocative, and the "horse whisperer" protagonist was compelling for me.
P.S. I wouldn't call the Judge the protagonist of Blood Meridian, but maybe I don't know the correct definition of that word.
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 12, 2023, 02:19:26 PMP.S. I wouldn't call the Judge the protagonist of Blood Meridian, but maybe I don't know the correct definition of that word.
Maybe I am misusing the word, but the Judge is the central focus of the book - and if you can find Captain Ahab referred to as the protagonist then why not Judge Holden?
Quote from: BWV 1080 on July 12, 2023, 12:42:22 PMSure, but the talented psychopath is not unusual, Oskar Direlwanger had a PhD, their is Jimmy Saville or James Levine etc
psychopaths are common, but dont see how criticizing one aspect of the book dismisses other aspects
dont disagree, also the Comanche attack
Of course that was not what I said, curious that you interpret it that way.
Keep in mind the events of this book took place in the 1850s, and in a very uncivilized area of the United States. Being violent, as well as being ruthless, were necessary aspects of staying alive.
Also, I found the Judge character interesting from the very beginning when he takes down the con man preacher, accusing him of moral turpitude in Fort Smith Arkansas, and being run out of town, tar-and-feathered. It only comes out later in the bar that he admits to having never been in Fort Smith.
I found the character very entertaining. Only in the last scene does he gross me out, and I have trouble with how the book ends.
Quote from: San Antone on July 12, 2023, 04:28:04 PMAlso, I found the Judge character interesting from the very beginning when he takes down the con man preacher, accusing him of moral turpitude in Fort Smith Arkansas, and being run out of town, tar-and-feathered. It only comes out later in the bar that he admits to having never been in Fort Smith.
I loved that part too. Edit: just picked up the book and read through the first chapter. Might reread the whole thing :D
]
Quote from: BWV 1080 on July 12, 2023, 03:30:09 PMMaybe I am misusing the word, but the Judge is the central focus of the book - and if you can find Captain Ahab referred to as the protagonist then why not Judge Holden?
Well just as
Call me Ishmael makes you know that Ishmael is a main player in Moby Dick,
See the child makes you know that The Kid is a main player in Blood Meridian. The incipits are too similar for it not to be significant IMO.
An analogous novel, I suggest, is Mann's Magic Mountain. The Kid = Hans Castorp; The Judge = Settembrini; The Expriest = Castorp. I'd even argue that the mountain and the desert have common traits (distant from civilisation, a magical place)
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 12, 2023, 02:19:26 PMToo bad. I really liked that one; the way McCarthy writes about the north Mexican scenery is very evocative, and the "horse whisperer" protagonist was compelling for me.
Abandoned - it just seemed to be saying "look at how those evil Mexicans treat our wholesome American boys."
I'm half way through The Road. Something is keeping me turning the pages despite the linearity of the structure.
Father and son - and in Blood Meridian The Judge wants to be The Kid's father, arguably that's what it's mainly "about." And the hostile lifeless landscape of the road, with its threatening gangs - is like the desert and the "savages" too.
Just look at this prose poem from Suttree (I am all of 2% through) -- astonishing at the level of style. Reading it, the thing that caught my attention was the rhythm of "The heart beneath the breastbone pumping"
He crossed the cabin and stretched himself out on the cot. Closing his eyes. A faint breeze from the window stirring his hair. The shantyboat trembled slightly in the river and one of the steel drums beneath the floor expanded in the heat with a melancholy bong. Eyes resting. This hushed and mazy Sunday. The heart beneath the breastbone pumping. The blood on its appointed rounds. Life in small places, narrow crannies. In the leaves, the toad's pulse. The delicate cellular warfare in a waterdrop. A dextrocardiac, said the smiling doctor. Your heart's in the right place. Weathershrunk and loveless. The skin drawn and split like an overripe fruit.
He turned heavily on the cot and put one eye to a space in the rough board wall. The river flowing past out there. Cloaca Maxima. Death by drowning, the ticking of a dead man's watch. The old tin clock on Grandfather's table hammered like a foundry. Leaning to say goodbye in the little yellow room, reek of lilies and incense. He arched his neck to tell to me some thing. I never heard. He wheezed my name, his grip belied the frailty of him. His caved and wasted face. The dead would take the living with them if they could, I pulled away. Sat in an ivy garden that lizards kept with constant leathery slitherings. Hutched hares ghost pale in the shade of the carriagehouse wall. Flagstones in a rosegarden, the terraced slope of the lawn above the river, odor of boxwood and mossmold and old brick in the shadow of the springhouse. Under the watercress stones in the clear flowage cluttered with periwinkles. A salamander, troutspeckled. Leaning to suck the cold and mossy water. A rimpled child's face watching back, a watery isomer agoggle in the rings.
In my father's last letter he said that the world is run by those willing to take the responsibility for the running of it. If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.
From all old seamy throats of elders, musty books, I've salvaged not a word. . .
Quote from: Mandryka on July 16, 2023, 01:43:30 PMI'm half way through The Road. Something is keeping me turning the pages despite the linearity of the structure.
Father and son - and in Blood Meridian The Judge wants to be The Kid's father, arguably that's what it's mainly "about." And the hostile lifeless landscape of the road, with its threatening gangs - is like the desert and the "savages" too.
Finished. Not convinced that it's got anything really going for it at the level of structure, style, character or idea. But it's an "entertaining" (not the word really) read, and there are some purple passages.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 20, 2023, 09:58:45 AMJust look at this prose poem from Suttree (I am all of 2% through)
That reminds me, I have to try that book again. I think I made it about 3% through. If I can get through that initial intimidating wall of text things might go more smoothly.
That's one of a couple that I haven't read. Not sure what I'm waiting for. Maybe I'll pick up a copy when I'm all set up in my new place next month.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 12, 2023, 01:27:36 PMCan you put me on to some good secondary literature @Crudblud ?
Sorry, I didn't see this. I would have to go digging through my university's library system again, these were articles I read while researching for an essay that I ended up not writing.
Quote from: Crudblud on July 21, 2023, 06:11:36 AMSorry, I didn't see this. I would have to go digging through my university's library system again, these were articles I read while researching for an essay that I ended up not writing.
This arrived this afternoon
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1526172054?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 20, 2023, 11:03:12 AMThat reminds me, I have to try that book again. I think I made it about 3% through. If I can get through that initial intimidating wall of text things might go more smoothly.
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 20, 2023, 03:44:48 PMThat's one of a couple that I haven't read. Not sure what I'm waiting for. Maybe I'll pick up a copy when I'm all set up in my new place next month.
I'm 25% through Sutree. It is a fabulous book, so far full of humanity and humour. It's a great portrait of a city (Knoxville), like Les Miserables and Berlin Alexanderplatz. Wonderful prose poems throughout, as you would expect.
Good musical joke in The Passenger -- which is a bit like a novel by David Lynch. I had to look up Betsy Ross, of course.
Martha Washington and Betsy Ross are sitting in front of the fire sewing the first flag and they're reminiscing about the old days and all the parties and dances and everything and Betsy says to Martha: Oh and do you remember the minuet? And Martha says Lord honey I cant hardly remember the ones I screwed.