Called today by PM Rishi Sunak for 4th July - a day for celebrating liberty in the US, but probably not going to make a huge amount of difference here, whatever the outcome.
I did wonder when the news earlier claimed inflation had dropped into the target range whether this would be their chance ::) .
I think Sunak's a total fool. He could have looked at Accuweather and postponed it, held it inside, had a flunky hold an umbrella over him. But no, presumably defying all advice he intrepidly steps outside, knowing that he would probably get drenched and certainly be accompanied by Things Can Only Get Better.
Quote from: DaveF on May 22, 2024, 10:09:57 AMCalled today by PM Rishi Sunak for 4th July - a day for celebrating liberty in the US, but probably not going to make a huge amount of difference here, whatever the outcome.
Well I can't help think that Starmer is slightly less corrupt.
I think it's good for democracy not to have the one party ruling for ever.
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 22, 2024, 08:39:20 PMI think it's good for democracy not to have the one party ruling for ever.
Political parties have become the scourge of democracy. To have any chance of getting elected, one has not only to join a party, but also to kowtow to its line --- and since meritorious and decent people are usually independent in thought and action, the system quickly filters them out in favor of the mediocre and the corrupt. Nominally it is a democracy but for all intents and purposes it has been turned into a partitocracy.
Quote from: Florestan on May 23, 2024, 12:56:13 AMPolitical parties have become the scourge of democracy. To have any chance of getting elected, one has not only to join a party, but also to kowtow to its line --- and since meritorious and decent people are usually independent in thought and action, the system quickly filters them out in favor of the mediocre and the corrupt. Nominally it is a democracy but for all intents and purposes it has been turned into a partitocracy.
True, elected individuals who vote independently on each issue could be better, but the choice we get here is between sh*t and sh*te :( .
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 23, 2024, 04:41:28 AMTrue, elected individuals who vote independently on each issue could be better, but the choice we get here is between sh*t and sh*te :( .
Pretty much the same in my country.
Quote from: Florestan on May 23, 2024, 04:53:04 AMPretty much the same in my country.
Plus we don't have proportional representation so if 51% of voters in every constituency voted for the blue party they'd get 100% of the members of parliament.
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 23, 2024, 05:00:30 AMif 51% of voters in every constituency voted for the blue party they'd get 100% of the members of parliament.
AFAIK, this never happened, though. Or did it?
During the 2005 parliamentary election, the Labour Party won 56.5 percent of the legislative seats though the Party received only 36.1 percent of the popular votes in the nation. It's because the UK (and USA etc) uses single member district system rather than proportional representation system like Israel. The Labor Party won a slight majority of districts with a very narrow margin while it received very few votes in the districts it didn't win.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 23, 2024, 06:05:10 AMDuring the 2005 parliamentary election, the Labour Party won 56.5 percent of the legislative seats though the Party received only 36.1 percent of the popular votes in the nation. It's because the UK (and USA etc) uses single member district system rather than proportional representation system like Israel. The Labor Party won a slight majority of districts with a very narrow margin while it received very few votes in the districts it didn't win.
It does however generally reduce the influence of minority extremist parties.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on May 23, 2024, 06:05:10 AMIt's because the UK (and USA etc) uses single member district system rather than proportional representation system like Israel.
Israel is not a good example to use when covering the topic of democracy.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 22, 2024, 01:37:47 PMWell I can't help think that Starmer is slightly less corrupt.
Paul Gambaccini would not hold that view. On the subject of corruption Angela Rayner has questions to answer. Lets face it they all have their noses in the trough. ::)
The 'they're all as bad as each other answer' is a cop out which the right wing press like to encourage as it lets them off the hook. In this case what Rayner may or may not have done re her living arrangements concerns sums in the low 1000s; the self-interested corruption the Tories have been getting away with for years (PPE contracts for mates, Johnson's many loans from his mates, etc etc, I really don't want to list everything) runs into the many 1000000s. Really not comparable, no matter what the Mail and Telegraph would like to pretend.
Quote from: Luke on May 23, 2024, 07:20:04 AMThe 'they're all as bad as each other answer' is a cop out which the right wing press like to encourage as it lets them off the hook.
Yes, the whitabootery winds up benefiting the right-wing extremists.
Quote from: Luke on May 23, 2024, 07:20:04 AMJohnson's many loans from his mates, etc etc, I really don't want to list everything) runs into the many 1000000s.
That's it? At least in the states, national level corruption involves real money, and sometimes gold bars stored at home.
Quote from: Todd on May 23, 2024, 07:30:40 AMThat's it? At least in the states, national level corruption involves real money, and sometimes gold bars stored at home.
Yes well as an addict of Shark Tank and the UK equivalent, Dragons Den, I've learned that everything to do with money is bigger in he USA. However, I think if we look at Sunak's grift, we'd find some very significant sums making their way from the UK treasury to companies he has a stake in.
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 23, 2024, 06:15:13 AMIt does however generally reduce the influence of minority extremist parties.
But the Tories are right wing extremists.
Quote from: Todd on May 23, 2024, 07:30:40 AMThat's it? At least in the states, national level corruption involves real money, and sometimes gold bars stored at home.
You'll be shocked then at how much the parties here spend on their campaigns. I found this BBC News Article (https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50170067) from 2019:
Political parties' spend is also capped at £30,000 for each constituency that it contests in a general election. So if a party stood a candidate in each of the 650 UK constituencies, its maximum spend would total £19.5m. :laugh:
Quote from: Mandryka on May 23, 2024, 07:36:33 AMBut the Tories are right wing extremists.
They're not a minority though ;) .
Well not until the election anyway >:D .
Quote from: Todd on May 23, 2024, 07:30:40 AMThat's it? At least in the states, national level corruption involves real money, and sometimes gold bars stored at home.
Yes, I should have said 100s of 1000000s as in eg the 200000000 contract given to a Tory lingerie peer to make PPE during the pandemic (she took the money, including 29000000 for herself, IIRC, but provided unusable PPE in return). Bottom line is, the Tories have had their hands in the till for years, for themselves and their mates. Their behaviour has been scandalous, appalling. But Angela Rayner...
Quote from: Mandryka on May 23, 2024, 07:33:49 AMYes well as an addict of Shark Tank and the UK equivalent, Dragons Den, I've learned that everything to do with money is bigger in he USA. However, I think if we look at Sunak's grift, we'd find some very significant sums making their way from the UK treasury to companies he has a stake in.
To his wife's companies too.
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 23, 2024, 07:41:57 AMPolitical parties' spend is also capped at £30,000 for each constituency that it contests in a general election. So if a party stood a candidate in each of the 650 UK constituencies, its maximum spend would total £19.5m. :laugh:
Pfft, that ain't democracy. This is democracy:
Dem convention prime spots: $5M (https://www.politico.com/newsletters/illinois-playbook/2023/06/20/dem-convention-prime-seats-5m-00102625)
No Corruption Here.PNG
But the parties here are very, very, very, very, very different from one another.
Quote from: Todd on May 23, 2024, 07:53:07 AMPfft, that ain't democracy. This is democracy:
Dem convention prime spots: $5M (https://www.politico.com/newsletters/illinois-playbook/2023/06/20/dem-convention-prime-seats-5m-00102625)
No Corruption Here.PNG
But the parties here are very, very, very, very, very different from one another.
It's a lot of money to spend cancelling out what the other party spends. Does anyone end up with some or is it all annihilated like matter and anti-matter?
Politics has returned to GMG? :o
Quote from: Luke on May 23, 2024, 07:44:38 AMYes, I should have said 100s of 1000000s as in eg the 200000000 contract given to a Tory lingerie peer to make PPE during the pandemic (she took the money, including 29000000 for herself, IIRC, but provided unusable PPE in return). Bottom line is, the Tories have had their hands in the till for years, for themselves and their mates. Their behaviour has been scandalous, appalling. But Angela Rayner...
Angela Rayner is much more a threat to the Tories in the way she usually makes mincemeat of them in parliament (like Yvette Cooper does). There is no comparison in terms of scale with Mone or that JCB bloke etc... but the Tories will claw to that story to weaken her in one way or another.
That said, purely in terms of principle, that makes it more difficult for her to call the other side "scum" if/when you have (allegedly) fiddled the books yourself (even in a very minimal manner).
Quote from: 71 dB on May 23, 2024, 08:00:33 AMPolitics has returned to GMG? :o
Well, I suppose that discussing British politics is more fun than listening to Vaughan Willims, Britten, and other English composers... >:D
But you have a point,
Poju. Thanks!
All GMGers be advised that if this thread gets nasty, it will be locked immediately without any warning.
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 23, 2024, 07:59:18 AMDoes anyone end up with some or is it all annihilated like matter and anti-matter?
The money is funneled to campaigns, PACs, and Super-PACs, which in turn funnel money to law firms and consultancies and ad agencies, all of which in turn spend money on internet, radio, direct, and above all, TV advertising. So, it's one group of superrich people indirectly paying money to another group of superrich people. The irony here is that the majority of TV stations in the US are owned by a small number of companies, and most of the privately held companies are owned by "conservatives". (Hence the genius of LBJ - meaning Lady Bird, not Lyndon Baines - who owned her own radio (KLBJ - I'm not making it up) and TV (KTBC) stations so she got to keep the ad dollars!)
Quote from: ritter on May 23, 2024, 08:06:48 AMWell, I suppose that discussing British politics is more fun than listening to Vaughan Willims, Britten, and other English composers... >:D
But you have a point, Poju. Thanks!
All GMGers be advised that if this thread gets nasty, it will be locked immediately without any warning.
I may have been a lot into political discussions/debate in the past, but not anymore. People can keep their views and I keep my views on politics. The only political power I have is voting in Finnish elections. Beyond that it doesn't matter what I say/write and think. If anything, saying something political can get me in trouble on discussion boards thanks to all the toxicity of current internet culture. That's why I don't really share my political views online anymore and I have to say, listening to British composers is more attractive idea.
Haha. I'm prepared to lay down money that this thread will go South PDQ :)
It's a good job we have Vaughan Williams, Britten, and other fine English composers to raise the tone of the inevitable cucumber sandwich fight... 8)
Quote from: 71 dB on May 23, 2024, 08:00:33 AMPolitics has returned to GMG? :o
It's only British politics, nothing serious ;) .
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 23, 2024, 08:31:14 AMIt's only British politics, nothing serious ;) .
And as such, I must ask, does Liz Truss stand a chance of returning as PM? I hear a head of lettuce wants a rematch.
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 23, 2024, 07:59:18 AMIt's a lot of money to spend cancelling out what the other party spends. Does anyone end up with some or is it all annihilated like matter and anti-matter?
Negative campaigning on both sides may cancel in terms of votes. But it doesn't cancel in terms of the cynicism that it leaves in its wake.
Quote from: ritter on May 23, 2024, 08:06:48 AMWell, I suppose that discussing British politics is more fun than listening to Vaughan Willims, Britten, and other English composers...
Burn!
This year Romania will have 4 rounds of elections: local, EU-level, parliamentary and presidential.
A very good friend I alluded to in another thread tries hard to convince me to vote for a specific party --- unsuccessfully, for three reasons:
(1) politically and economically, I lean toward classical liberalism; culturally, I lean toward cosmopolitanism; religiously, I lean toward liberal Eastern Orthodoxy, whereas that party is authoritarian, protectionist, nationalist and fundamentalist;
(2) I am pro-EU and pro-NATO, whereas that party is anti-EU and anti-NATO;
(3) I believe partisan politics and policies are part of the problem, not of the solution, whereas he believes that if only the party he supports won a comfortable majority, Romania would instantly turn into paradise on earth.
Aditionally, the cynic in me believes that, in the contemporary world, corrupt and unprincipled politicians might perhaps be the price of freedom. I'd rather live under Rishi Sunak than under Maximilien Robespierre.
Quote from: Luke on May 23, 2024, 07:20:04 AMThe 'they're all as bad as each other answer' is a cop out which the right wing press like to encourage as it lets them off the hook. In this case what Rayner may or may not have done re her living arrangements concerns sums in the low 1000s; the self-interested corruption the Tories have been getting away with for years (PPE contracts for mates, Johnson's many loans from his mates, etc etc, I really don't want to list everything) runs into the many 1000000s. Really not comparable, no matter what the Mail and Telegraph would like to pretend.
Corruption is what it is. I don't follow the line low scale corruption is OK.
Quote from: Irons on May 24, 2024, 07:28:39 AMCorruption is what it is. I don't follow the line low scale corruption is OK.
1) Corruption is secret bungs given to your mates, it's using your position to gain unfair advantage, it's rigging the system in your favour etc. It's what the Tories have been doing, shamelessly, and increasingly seriously, as long as they have been in power. The Rayner issue is of a different type to this, not just of a totally different financial magnitude.
2) Rayner hasn't been found guilty of anything. The police are investigating because a Tory MP asked them to, just as they investigated Starmer when the same Tory MP asked them to investigate so-called 'Beergate.' As with Rayner the right wing press had a field day, as the accusations allowed them to propose that insidious 'all as bad as each other' line and thus take some heat off their beloved Johnson. Starmer, of course, was found entirely innocent (unlike Johnson). Let's see what happens with Rayner
On a lighter note, might I suggest that as an American that it's rather amusing that the election will be held on the Fourth of July? :) ;) :-*
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on May 24, 2024, 10:05:33 AMOn a lighter note, might I suggest that as an American that it's rather amusing that the election will be held on the Fourth of July? :) ;) :-*
PD
It was democratic in the sense of getting rid of the people who had no vote ;) .
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 24, 2024, 10:55:56 AMIt was democratic in the sense of getting rid of the people who had no vote ;) .
Stamps, I don't buy very often [Apologies to the USPS] though I've liked Twinings Earl Grey Tea for many years...though I'm normally mostly a coffee drinker.
PD
Quote from: Florestan on May 23, 2024, 12:31:49 PMThis year Romania will have 4 rounds of elections: local, EU-level, parliamentary and presidential.
A very good friend I alluded to in another thread tries hard to convince me to vote for a specific party --- unsuccessfully, for three reasons:
(1) politically and economically, I lean toward classical liberalism; culturally, I lean toward cosmopolitanism; religiously, I lean toward liberal Eastern Orthodoxy, whereas that party is authoritarian, protectionist, nationalist and fundamentalist;
(2) I am pro-EU and pro-NATO, whereas that party is anti-EU and anti-NATO;
I assume these are Putin fans that don't believe that Putin will eat
them.
(https://render.fineartamerica.com/images/rendered/default/greeting-card/images-medium-5/he-tells-it-like-it-is-paul-not.jpg?&targetx=82&targety=25&imagewidth=535&imageheight=450&modelwidth=700&modelheight=500&backgroundcolor=ffffff&orientation=0)
Hi all,
This thread is specifically about the UK general election, let us keep it on topic please. This should not become a rehash of the European politics thread. There is a reason it was locked so long ago.
Quote from: Luke on May 24, 2024, 09:48:42 AM1) Corruption is secret bungs given to your mates, it's using your position to gain unfair advantage, it's rigging the system in your favour etc. It's what the Tories have been doing, shamelessly, and increasingly seriously, as long as they have been in power. The Rayner issue is of a different type to this, not just of a totally different financial magnitude.
2) Rayner hasn't been found guilty of anything. The police are investigating because a Tory MP asked them to, just as they investigated Starmer when the same Tory MP asked them to investigate so-called 'Beergate.' As with Rayner the right wing press had a field day, as the accusations allowed them to propose that insidious 'all as bad as each other' line and thus take some heat off their beloved Johnson. Starmer, of course, was found entirely innocent (unlike Johnson). Let's see what happens with Rayner
Best to stay factual if that is possible, Rayner was not exposed by a Tory MP but by Lord Ashcroft. If you go around calling people "scum" expect reprisals. As we both know and so does Rayner she will not be prosecuted by the police, the HMRC is a different matter entirely.
Quote from: DavidW on May 24, 2024, 05:43:05 PMHi all,
This thread is specifically about the UK general election, let us keep it on topic please. This should not become a rehash of the European politics thread. There is a reason it was locked so long ago.
I don't remember any European politics thread. The one that was locked was about US politics. But I agree, sooner or later a thread about politics will get nasty and eventually be locked. :laugh:
Quote from: Irons on May 25, 2024, 12:22:46 AMBest to stay factual if that is possible, Rayner was not exposed by a Tory MP but by Lord Ashcroft. If you go around calling people "scum" expect reprisals. As we both know and so does Rayner she will not be prosecuted by the police, the HMRC is a different matter entirely.
The Tory MP who asked the police to investigate Rayner was James Daly, the same MP who asked the police to investigate Starmer. As you say, best to stay factual.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/angela-rayner-council-house-james-daly-b2530174.html
So far nearly 80 Conservative MPs have thrown in the towel and announced they won't be standing for re-election. Which suggests they don't expect to win.
BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv22pk09478o)
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 25, 2024, 07:26:29 AMSo far nearly 80 Conservative MPs have thrown in the towel and announced they won't be standing for re-election. Which suggests they don't expect to win.
BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv22pk09478o)
Any thoughts about why he decided to call an election
now? I mean, it looks like he's got a death wish.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 25, 2024, 07:29:46 AMAny thoughts about why he decided to call an election now? I mean, it looks like he's got a death wish.
The energy price cap has been reduced and is expected to drop further in July, inflation has allegedly dropped, the economy is allegedly out of recession, summer is generally less disastrous for the NHS. Things can only get worser ;) .
As an American who knows nothing of UK politics, or UK politicians until they become PM, and assuming Sir Keir becomes PM, should I expect a new, bold, independent UK foreign policy?
You should expect him to engage more with Europe, at the very least. To try to rebuild all those idiotically burnt bridges without frightening the horses
Quote from: Todd on May 25, 2024, 08:43:41 AMAs an American who knows nothing of UK politics, or UK politicians until they become PM, and assuming Sir Keir becomes PM, should I expect a new, bold, independent UK foreign policy?
No. He will continue to support Israel's actions in Gaza, he will supply them with the arms they need to do it. I expect he'll get on well with Trump.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 25, 2024, 09:25:07 AMNo. He will continue to support Israel's actions in Gaza, he will supply them the arms they need to do it.
Will he maintain the current policy on Ukraine, will he continue membership in the Five Eyes, and will he continue forward with AUKUS?
Have a read of Boris Johnson's polemical article in the Daily Mail
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13456697/Boris-Johnson-Keir-Starmer-dangerous-left-wing-1970s.html
You may need to clean it up with this
https://12ft.io/
Quote from: Todd on May 25, 2024, 09:27:15 AMWill he maintain the current policy on Ukraine, will he continue membership in the Five Eyes, and will he continue forward with AUKUS?
Not clear.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 25, 2024, 09:30:12 AMHave a read of Boris Johnson's polemical article in the Daily Mail
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13456697/Boris-Johnson-Keir-Starmer-dangerous-left-wing-1970s.html
I confess that I do not know UK politics. Who was/were the dangerous left-wing PM/PMs in the 70s?
Quote from: Todd on May 25, 2024, 09:34:29 AMI confess that I do not know UK politics. Who was/were the dangerous left-wing PM/PMs in the 70s?
Tony Benn, Harold Wilson, Michael Foot, Barbara Castle.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 25, 2024, 09:41:58 AMTony Benn, Harold Wilson, Michael Foot
So, then, it goes Stalin, Mao, Benn/Wilson/Foot? Is that right? I mean, clearly Bojo is a trustworthy fellow, and all.
Quote from: Todd on May 25, 2024, 09:34:29 AMI confess that I do not know UK politics. Who was/were the dangerous left-wing PM/PMs in the 70s?
Harold Wilson? He let the country vote to join the European Economic Community ::) .
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 25, 2024, 09:49:34 AMHarold Wilson? He let the country vote to join the European Economic Community ::) .
Oh, shit, then Wilson was merely just Satan in disguise. I had no idea.
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 25, 2024, 07:55:14 AMThe energy price cap has been reduced and is expected to drop further in July, inflation has allegedly dropped, the economy is allegedly out of recession, summer is generally less disastrous for the NHS. Things can only get worser ;) .
Or has he simply had enough? Going to lose anyway.
Quote from: Luke on May 25, 2024, 01:51:10 AMThe Tory MP who asked the police to investigate Rayner was James Daly, the same MP who asked the police to investigate Starmer. As you say, best to stay factual.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/angela-rayner-council-house-james-daly-b2530174.html
That is true Daly did report Rayner to police but the story was broke by Lord Ashcroft in his unauthorised biography of Rayner "The Red Queen".
https://news.sky.com/story/what-is-angela-rayner-accused-of-why-deputy-labour-leader-is-being-investigated-and-what-shes-said-13115839
I know, but if you look at the original exchange we had I wasn't talking about the person who made the allegation but about the person who urged the police to investigate.
Quote from: Irons on May 26, 2024, 09:22:55 AMOr has he simply had enough? Going to lose anyway.
One thing that I'm curious about: who owns/runs various utilities in the UK? I know that there have been problems with services such as water (which I believe is controlled by private companies). Where does heating fall under? And gas and electric (which I know can also be sources of heating). Are they all privately held? If so, what are the caps like?
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on May 26, 2024, 09:48:57 AMOne thing that I'm curious about: who owns/runs various utilities in the UK? I know that there have been problems with services such as water (which I believe is controlled by private companies). Where does heating fall under? And gas and electric (which I know can also be sources of heating). Are they all privately held? If so, what are the caps like?
PD
Most were under state ownership and as they were in a mess the Conservative government sold them off to privatise them. Now they are in a bigger mess.
Quote from: Irons on May 26, 2024, 10:00:18 AMMost were under state ownership and as they were in a mess the Conservative government sold them off to privatise them. Now they are in a bigger mess.
Eck! Roughly, when did that happen (or various dates)?
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on May 26, 2024, 10:32:55 AMEck! Roughly, when did that happen (or various dates)?
PD
Mid 1980s. It was interesting because the companies were publicly owned, and so in a way she was selling off an asset which was the people's. What she did was make the share offer very cheap for ordinary people, in order to create an asset owning working class. Same with her sell off of publicly owned housing.
I remember the adverts on TV -- and the excitement about it all
Quote from: Mandryka on May 26, 2024, 12:08:48 PMWhat she did was make the share offer very cheap for ordinary people, in order to create an asset owning working class
Are ordinary, working class people the majority shareholders, or even material minority shareholders, of the publicly traded companies, or do large institutional investors, including foreign sovereign wealth funds, own most shares?
Quote from: Irons on May 26, 2024, 10:00:18 AMMost were under state ownership and as they were in a mess the Conservative government sold them off to privatise them. Now they are in a bigger mess.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on May 26, 2024, 10:32:55 AMEck! Roughly, when did that happen (or various dates)?
PD
Quote from: Todd on May 26, 2024, 12:19:13 PMAre ordinary, working class people the majority shareholders, or even material minority shareholders, of the publicly traded companies, or do large institutional investors, including foreign sovereign wealth funds, own most shares?
I was wondering too as to how this worked. Does the government still own any of the shares? Or, as Todd asked, do mostly big corporations or others own the biggest chunks of them?
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on May 26, 2024, 01:31:36 PMOr, as Todd asked, do mostly big corporations or others own the biggest chunks of them?
My question was rhetorical. If a company is publicly traded, large institutional investors own the vast majority of shares. Only if there is a multi-tiered share structure (eg, Facebook) does publicly traded share ownership not reflect actual ownership and control. There is a reasonable probability that some of the companies have multi-tiered ownership structures, and ultimately, governments always have the power to nationalize such companies and industries if they choose, and they have done so before, so such companies and industries are not perfect equivalents to pure private market companies. I was curious and did about fifteen minutes of digging and found this regarding the largest traded utilities on the FTSE:
Leading utilities companies listed on London Stock Exchange (UK) in August 2023, by market capitalization (https://www.statista.com/statistics/889724/utilities-companies-on-lse/)
I then looked up National Grid Plc to check share ownership, and all the standard names appear, with Vanguard the largest single shareholder. BlackRock is listed, various sovereign wealth funds are listed, and interestingly, Capital Research & Management Co. (American Funds on the retail side) is listed twice, through two different entities. That implies that in the UK as in the US, there are additional requirements if a company owns 5% or more of publicly traded shares. More interesting yet would be to know which, if any, companies are owned outright by private equity funds, hedge funds, or special purposes entities (assuming those exist in the UK).
This article from The Graun from a couple years ago also popped up:
Revealed: more than 70% of English water industry is in foreign ownership (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/nov/30/more-than-70-per-cent-english-water-industry-foreign-ownership)
The British have fully and passionately embraced private ownership of utilities, for good or for bad.
I may have materially misstated reality on the ground, of course, so if I did, perhaps a UK forum member can shed additional light on the affected companies and industries.
Quote from: Todd on May 26, 2024, 02:50:01 PMThe British have fully and passionately embraced private ownership of utilities, for good or for bad.
It's true that the powers-that-be have embraced private ownership. I'm not so sure it's embraced by 'the British' in the sense of public opinion. In general those in charge of the privatised utilities are unloved because they seem to put shareholders before service, and, in some cases (eg a current case would be that of the water companies responsible for filling our rivers with unspeakable pollutants whilst raking in enormous bonuses) positively reviled.
(https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/26/england-water-companies-shareholders-dividends-river-sea George Monbiot on the environmental results of privatisation; he's a polemical, passionate writer but I'd say he probably reflects the views of most of the country when it comes to this issue - I may be wrong of course)
(https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-8465ac94-e976-43b4-804c-1ab40e3b0651.jpeg)
40 years since privatization, are the services better and cheaper than they were when state-owned? That is the question.
Quote from: Luke on May 26, 2024, 03:57:50 PMthe water companies responsible for filling our rivers with unspeakable pollutants whilst raking in enormous bonuses
Who owns the rivers? IOW, who has the right (or perhaps the duty) to issue anti-pollution regulations and the power to enforce them?
Quote from: Florestan on May 26, 2024, 11:12:54 PM40 years since privatization, are the services better and cheaper than they were when state-owned? That is the question.
The service is better, I would say, in the case of Telecoms and primary and secondary Education. And the service seems to have deteriorated in the case of some key health outcomes, both absolutely and relatively.
Quote from: Florestan on May 26, 2024, 11:12:54 PM40 years since privatization, are the services better and cheaper than they were when state-owned? That is the question.
A lot has changed in forty years which makes it a difficult question to answer. The Royal Mail is a case in point, forty years ago we enjoyed two deliveries a day six days a week. Today we are lucky to receive four deliveries total a week. But perhaps email and competition has more to do with drop in standards then privatization.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 26, 2024, 11:28:32 PMThe service is better, I would say, in the case of Telecoms and primary and secondary Education. And the service seems to have deteriorated in the case of some key health outcomes, both absolutely and relatively.
I'd say that some services are predisposed by their very nature to a good, even better, outcome in private hands than in the state's, and telecom and education are prime examples. Healthcare is a thorny issue, though.
Quote from: Irons on May 26, 2024, 11:34:51 PMA lot has changed in forty years which makes it a difficult question to answer. The Royal Mail is a case in point, forty years ago we enjoyed two deliveries a day six days a week. Today we are lucky to receive four deliveries total a week. But perhaps email and competition has more to do with drop in standards then privatization.
That's my opinion as well.
In the case of healthcare, two things have happened in the Uk over the past 25 years. One is greater involvement of private provision, and the other is inadequate of real per capita spend by Government. It's hard to separate the effect of these. You'd also have to separate out the private provision of day to day healthcare within the National Health Service, and the private funding of major infrastructure projects for the National Health Service.
To add to the complexity, health care capacity is partly dependent on the possibility of safely discharging hospital patients to free up a bed. But whether a hospital can discharge a patient is itself dependent on the availability of personal care for that patient once out of hospital. The UK's personal care sector is privatised, and has suffered greatly from tougher immigration controls and Brexit, it's a low pay sector and Britain's unemployment rate is low. So there's a political element too.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 27, 2024, 12:16:54 AM...and the other is inadequate of real per capita spend by Government.
The US spends far more per capita on healthcare than any other country in the world, yet measurable outcomes are often inferior. The relationship between expenditure and outcomes is substantially more complicated than simply throwing money at the problem (the American specialty). However, since the UK is below the advanced economy average, it perhaps should endeavor to match at least France in this regard. One would think that would be a matter of national pride.
One thing that I would hope the Brits could take the lead on is killing off silly talk of a suitable percentage of GDP being an idealized cap on such expenditures.
Quote from: Irons on May 26, 2024, 09:43:48 AMThat is true Daly did report Rayner to police but the story was broke by Lord Ashcroft in his unauthorised biography of Rayner "The Red Queen".
https://news.sky.com/story/what-is-angela-rayner-accused-of-why-deputy-labour-leader-is-being-investigated-and-what-shes-said-13115839
Just to round that off, the police have just said they are not going to investigate Rayner any more.
Quote from: Irons on May 26, 2024, 11:34:51 PMA lot has changed in forty years which makes it a difficult question to answer. The Royal Mail is a case in point, forty years ago we enjoyed two deliveries a day six days a week. Today we are lucky to receive four deliveries total a week. But perhaps email and competition has more to do with drop in standards then privatization.
Often we get no post for several days - then it all arrives at once.
QuoteOften we get no post for several days - then it all arrives at once.
Isn't that just your CD purchasing pattern............???!! ;D
Quote from: vandermolen on May 29, 2024, 07:47:38 AMOften we get no post for several days - then it all arrives at once.
Which is isn't great if waiting for hospital appointments etc.
Announced yesterday that Daniel Kretinsky aka "Czech Sphinx" has taken full control of Royal Mail. I am familiar with him as he has a 25% stake in West Ham United FC (similar stake in Sainsburys too).
If (when?) the Conservatives and Reform join forces, everything will change.
I can't vote for any party which allows the sale of arms to Israel. I think I will not vote at all.
Quote from: Irons on May 26, 2024, 11:34:51 PMA lot has changed in forty years which makes it a difficult question to answer. The Royal Mail is a case in point, forty years ago we enjoyed two deliveries a day six days a week. Today we are lucky to receive four deliveries total a week. But perhaps email and competition has more to do with drop in standards then privatization.
In Finland Postal services have weakened too. Instead of getting mail every day (Mon. - Fri.), we have a system where the weekdays are divided between two areas so that half the manpower is needed. Since Monday to Friday is 5 days, the arrangement changes every other week. So on even weeks I get mail (if there is anything to deliver) on Monday, Wednesday and Friday (while the same postman works on another area on Tuesday and Thursday). On odd weeks it is the other way around and I get mail on Tuesday and Thursday. So, mathematically I get mail 2.5 times a week. If I have been expecting something to arrive on Friday and it doesn't, I need to wait until the next Tuesday for the next change. That can be annoying. They say these changes have been necessary because people sent much less paper mail than they used to in the past.
Quote from: Florestan on May 26, 2024, 11:12:54 PM40 years since privatization, are the services better and cheaper than they were when state-owned? That is the question.
Who owns the rivers? IOW, who has the right (or perhaps the duty) to issue anti-pollution regulations and the power to enforce them?
For UK politics I watch the Youtube videos of Michael Lambert (https://www.youtube.com/@MichaelLambert1/featured). He says the mistake has been selling important infrastructure to foreigners who don't care about anything else than profits. China doesn't care much how polluted the rivers are in the UK.
Quote from: Irons on May 26, 2024, 09:22:55 AMOr has he simply had enough? Going to lose anyway.
Seems like Sunak wants to move to the US with his family and leave the mess behind...
Quote from: Florestan on May 23, 2024, 12:31:49 PMThis year Romania will have 4 rounds of elections: local, EU-level, parliamentary and presidential.
Wow. That's a lot. We had the presidential election earlier this year and now the EU-election.
Quote from: Florestan on May 23, 2024, 12:31:49 PMA very good friend I alluded to in another thread tries hard to convince me to vote for a specific party --- unsuccessfully, for three reasons:
That sounds weird to me. In Finland who you vote for is everybody's own business. Often people don't even tell others how they voted. Finns rather debate political ideologies in general, but who we vote for in the end is a personal matter and it is respected.
Quote from: Florestan on May 23, 2024, 12:31:49 PM(1) politically and economically, I lean toward classical liberalism; culturally, I lean toward cosmopolitanism; religiously, I lean toward liberal Eastern Orthodoxy.
I lean politically green/left/social democrat as an atheist. So, I am for religious freedoms (people should be allowed to practice whatever religion they want), but religion should not dictate politics.
Quote from: Florestan on May 23, 2024, 12:31:49 PM(2) I am pro-EU and pro-NATO, whereas that party is anti-EU and anti-NATO;
I'm also pro-EU. I used to be mildly against Finland's NATO membership until Russia attacked Ukraine. Most Finns are like me in this.
Quote from: Florestan on May 23, 2024, 12:31:49 PM(3) I believe partisan politics and policies are part of the problem, not of the solution, whereas he believes that if only the party he supports won a comfortable majority, Romania would instantly turn into paradise on earth.
Those who offer the easiest solutions to problems are to be trusted the least in politics. Unfortunately a lot of people do not understand/accept this.
Quote from: Florestan on May 23, 2024, 12:31:49 PMAditionally, the cynic in me believes that, in the contemporary world, corrupt and unprincipled politicians might perhaps be the price of freedom. I'd rather live under Rishi Sunak than under Maximilien Robespierre.
Are those your only options?
Quote from: 71 dB on May 30, 2024, 01:34:35 AMChina doesn't care much how polluted the rivers are in the UK.
China doesn't even care much how polluted the rivers are in China. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on May 30, 2024, 02:49:12 AMChina doesn't even care much how polluted the rivers are in China. ;D
Are you sure? We westerners have our biased views about how backwards countries like China are, but that's not always the truth.
Quote from: 71 dB on May 30, 2024, 02:34:44 AMThat sounds weird to me. In Finland who you vote for is everybody's own business. Often people don't even tell others how they voted. Finns rather debate political ideologies in general, but who we vote for in the end is a personal matter and it is respected.
It's a cultural thing, I guess. First, Romanians are talkative like all Latins. Second, there's no taboo subject matter, we discuss everything, especially between good friends. Third, and related, there is a Romanian saying: "everybody is an expert in football and politics" (irony, of course). Last but not least, most Romanian voters are not constant in their vote: they can vote one party in an election and a different one in the next, or even different parties in the same election (I did both), so it's rather natural to share ideas and suggestions, especially on the eve of an election. The final option is of course personal.
Quote from: 71 dB on May 30, 2024, 01:40:25 AMSeems like Sunak wants to move to the US with his family and leave the mess behind...
I think Sunak is a nice man but an awful Conservative leader and Prime Minister. The policy announcement of mandatory national subscription was the last straw for me. Absolutely bonkers!
Quote from: 71 dB on May 30, 2024, 03:11:24 AMAre you sure? We westerners have our biased views about how backwards countries like China are, but that's not always the truth.
From the South China Morning Post: China unveils new plan to clean up major rivers and lakes (https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3214837/china-unveils-new-plan-clean-major-rivers-and-lakes)
Since that is owned by Alibaba and therefore very unreliable, unlike outlets owned by western multinationals, which are pure of intent and report with only complete honesty, here's a report from The Nature Conservancy: Securing Freshwater in China (https://www.nature.org/en-us/about-us/where-we-work/asia-pacific/china/stories-in-china/china-freshwater/)
It remains common, even on this forum, for some people to rely on lazy stereotypes. But that's understandable. That old t-shirt from The Onion had it right: stereotypes are a real time saver.
Quote from: Irons on May 29, 2024, 11:29:44 PMAnnounced yesterday that Daniel Kretinsky aka "Czech Sphinx" has taken full control of Royal Mail. I am familiar with him as he has a 25% stake in West Ham United FC (similar stake in Sainsburys too).
I will admit that I did not know that the Royal Mail was not stated owned. Perhaps in ten or twenty years, four or five multinationals could create a proper international cartel in the space.
Quote from: Irons on May 30, 2024, 06:41:30 AMI think Sunak is a nice man but an awful Conservative leader and Prime Minister. The policy announcement of mandatory national subscription was the last straw for me. Absolutely bonkers!
Since Finland has conscription, I don't see this announcement being "bonkers", but I wonder if the UK really needs it?
Quote from: Irons on May 30, 2024, 06:41:30 AMI think Sunak is a nice man but an awful Conservative leader and Prime Minister. The policy announcement of mandatory national subscription was the last straw for me. Absolutely bonkers!
I don't think he's a nice man.
Honestly, who cares about National Subscription? It's not going to happen. No-one listens to Sunak.
Quote from: 71 dB on May 30, 2024, 07:32:49 AMSince Finland has conscription, I don't see this announcement being "bonkers", but I wonder if the UK really needs it?
Finland for good reason.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 30, 2024, 07:34:34 AMI don't think he's a nice man.
Honestly, who cares about National Subscription? It's not going to happen. No-one listens to Sunak.
As always whether he is or not is somewhere down the middle. But who cares.
Agreed.
Quote from: Irons on May 30, 2024, 07:40:39 AMFinland for good reason.
As always whether he is or not is somewhere down the middle. But who cares.
Agreed.
Well you know, he's fuelled culture wars - that's not very nice to Trans people. He's introduced some draconian legislation to limit freedom of protest, authoritarian people aren't very nice in my experience. He's planning to send refugees to Rwanda - which is not really nice and friendly. Eat out to Help Out killed a lot of people, which isn't a nice thing to do.He's done nothing about Levelling Up, which is not being nice to people in, let's say, Blackpool. He's not paying keyworkers a wage that keeps up with inflation, which isn't very nice for them.
And the crowning example of nastiness. He's sending arms to Israel which are being used to kill innocent people including children - and that's definitely not nice.
Plus, there's all the grift. Nice people don't do that.
Wish I could like that more than once.
Quote from: Florestan on May 30, 2024, 09:45:31 AMWhat is that?
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/get-a-discount-with-the-eat-out-to-help-out-scheme
Quote from: Mandryka on May 30, 2024, 09:51:28 AMhttps://www.gov.uk/guidance/get-a-discount-with-the-eat-out-to-help-out-scheme
Thanks. How did that killed a lot of people?
AKA Eat Out to Kill Granny
From wiki:
The 2021 academic study said "EOHO scheme may have contributed to indirect economic and public health costs that vastly outstrip its short-term economic benefits"
John Edmunds of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, a member of the Sage committee of advisers during the pandemic described the scheme as "a spectacularly stupid idea and an obscene way to spend public money".At the COVID-19 enquiry, Edmunds stated that he was still angry about the scheme and that while it did not cause the second wave of COVID-19, it "encourage[d] people to take an epidemiological risk".
Abstract of the paper quoted above:
This paper documents that a large-scale government subsidy aimed at encouraging people to eat out in restaurants in the wake of the first 2020 COVID-19 wave in the United Kingdom has had a significant causal impact on new cases, accelerating the subsequent second COVID-19 wave. The scheme subsidised 50% off the cost of food and non-alcoholic drinks for an unlimited number of visits in participating restaurants on Mondays–Wednesdays from 3–31 August 2020. Areas with higher take-up saw both a notable increase in new COVID-19 infection clusters within a week of the scheme starting and a deceleration in infections within two weeks of the program ending. Similarly, areas that exhibited notable rainfall during the prime lunch and dinner hours on the days the scheme was active record lower infection incidence—a pattern that is also measurable in mobility data—and non-detectable on days during which the discount was not available or for rainfall outside the core lunch and dinner hours.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 30, 2024, 07:54:49 AMNice people
Politics is the last place where I would look for nice people.
Quote from: Luke on May 30, 2024, 10:06:30 AMAKA Eat Out to Kill Granny
From wiki:
The 2021 academic study said "EOHO scheme may have contributed to indirect economic and public health costs that vastly outstrip its short-term economic benefits"
John Edmunds of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, a member of the Sage committee of advisers during the pandemic described the scheme as "a spectacularly stupid idea and an obscene way to spend public money".At the COVID-19 enquiry, Edmunds stated that he was still angry about the scheme and that while it did not cause the second wave of COVID-19, it "encourage[d] people to take an epidemiological risk".
If I understand correctly, he says that because of EOHO people crowded the restaurants, thus increasing the risk of infection. Is that right?
Yes. My edited post has a bit more on it, above.
Quote from: Luke on May 30, 2024, 10:10:39 AMYes. My edited post has a bit more on it, above.
Read that part as well, thanks.
The study itself (just been reading it) concludes that the scheme increased detected cases by between 8%-17% over that summer, and likely many more undetected cases.
(Having said all that, I must admit that, against my better judgement and cajoled into it by my in-laws my wife and I went out a couple of times under the scheme. :-\ The first time was outside, no one else around, but the second was in a crowded room and felt very wrong)
Quote from: Mandryka on May 30, 2024, 10:21:42 AMWhat about good people?
I'm sure there are good people in the rank and file of any party but I'm not sure it applies to the top echelon.
Quote from: Florestan on May 30, 2024, 10:06:03 AMThanks. How did that killed a lot of people?
The thing to stress is that it wasn't just a lethal scheme
in hindsight. Sunak never consulted his scientific advisors about it, presumably because he knew what they would say. His reasoning must have been: let the bodies pile high as long as the money keeps coming in.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 30, 2024, 07:54:49 AMPlus, there's all the grift. Nice people don't do that.
On this side of the Pond, it is said that anyone who still gives their money to [a certain party] probably doesn't deserve to keep it.
Quote from: Karl Henning on May 30, 2024, 10:39:32 AMOn this side of the Pond, it is said that anyone who still gives their money to [a certain party] probably doesn't deserve to keep it.
Except large donors, both individual and corporate, I presume. ;D
Re Sunak, he was a merciful relief after Johnson and Truss, but as a politician he seems cloaked in mediocrity and rather nondescript. Starmer is hardly a swashbuckling inspiration either, but I'll be voting Labour as usual, the biggest reason for which is that I trust them more with NHS. There are other reasons, but the aching tragedy of allowing the NHS to be insidiously dismantled by the Tory right is too nightmare-ish to contemplate.
Quote from: Iota on May 31, 2024, 12:08:14 PMRe Sunak, he was a merciful relief after Johnson and Truss, but as a politician he seems cloaked in mediocrity and rather nondescript. Starmer is hardly a swashbuckling inspiration either, but I'll be voting Labour as usual, the biggest reason for which is that I trust them more with NHS. There are other reasons, but the aching tragedy of allowing the NHS to be insidiously dismantled by the Tory right is too nightmare-ish to contemplate.
|I'mnot convinced that the NHS will fare better with Starmer's Labour.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 01, 2024, 06:42:14 AM|I'mnot convinced that the NHS will fare better with Starmer's Labour.
Well it's all speculation of course, and if you asked me are there lots of blurred lines between Tory and Labour these days, I'd say yes. But if you asked me if I thought most Tory MP's really believe in the NHS, I think I'd say no, whereas if you asked me if most Labour MP's do, I'd certainly say yes.
I still think the sort of person that wants to become a Labour MP is going to be different from the sort that wants to become a Conservative MP. And ideologically the idea of subsidising the poor still requires something of a nosegay for the Tory party, where for Labour it doesn't at all.
Quote from: Iota on June 01, 2024, 10:35:21 AMthe idea of subsidising the poor still requires something of a nosegay for the Tory party, where for Labour it doesn't at all.
Poverty should be reduced rather than subsidized. Just saying.
Quote from: Florestan on June 01, 2024, 11:45:53 PMPoverty should be reduced rather than subsidized. Just saying.
Or this other approach
(https://arquine.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/mafalda-y-susanita_los-pobres-1.jpg)
Apologies to non-Spanish spreaders, but I cant find an English translation of
Mafalda, and in many instances it would be untranslatable anyway.
Good day to you,
Andrei.
Quote from: ritter on June 01, 2024, 11:51:06 PMOr this other approach
(https://arquine.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/mafalda-y-susanita_los-pobres-1.jpg)
;D
Quote from: Irons on May 29, 2024, 11:29:44 PMWhich is isn't great if waiting for hospital appointments etc.
Announced yesterday that Daniel Kretinsky aka "Czech Sphinx" has taken full control of Royal Mail. I am familiar with him as he has a 25% stake in West Ham United FC (similar stake in Sainsburys too).
Your point about hospital appointments (several of which I have coming up) is a very good one Lol.
Quote from: Florestan on June 01, 2024, 11:45:53 PMPoverty should be reduced rather than subsidized. Just saying.
Yes, by investing in people's health for example .. But tbh your point is a non sequitur in this instance, as I was talking about poverty in relation to health, which tends to require immediate treatment and does not have time to wait around for long term poverty-reducing measures to kick in.
There are always going to be people not able to afford private medical costs the way things are and have been for hundreds of years, and one needs to deal with them in the here and now, and the NHS throughout its history has done just that in an inspiring and laudable way imo. I'm all for reducing poverty, but it doesn't solve the problems of the present.
Quote from: ritter on June 01, 2024, 11:51:06 PMOr this other approach
(https://arquine.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/mafalda-y-susanita_los-pobres-1.jpg)
Apologies to non-Spanish spreaders, but I cant find an English translation of Mafalda, and in many instances it would be untranslatable anyway.
I tried to produce an English translation anyway:
spanish2english.png
Quote from: 71 dB on June 02, 2024, 01:54:22 AMI tried to produce an English translation anyway:
spanish2english.png
Well done,
Poju! Thanks. :)
Mafalda, by Argentinian cartoonist
Quino (1932 - 2020) was published for 10 years up to 1973, and has achieved iconic status in the Spanish speaking world. It managed to be hugely successful on both sides of the Atlantic.
Quote from: Florestan on June 01, 2024, 11:45:53 PMPoverty should be reduced rather than subsidized. Just saying.
How do you reduce poverty without granting a subsidy? Somehow people who are doing well don't understand at all the problems poor people face in everyday life. People assume things that are easy for them are easy for everybody.
Quote from: ritter on June 02, 2024, 02:01:50 AMWell done, Poju! Thanks. :)
I'm glad you think I did well.
Quote from: ritter on June 02, 2024, 02:01:50 AMMafalda, by Argentinian cartoonist Quino (1932 - 2020) was published for 10 years up to 1973, and has achieved iconic status in the Spanish speaking world. It managed to be hugely successful on both sides of the Atlantic.
I have never heard about
Mafalda before. Do younger people in Spanish-speaking countries know about it anymore? Perhaps these cartoons are being re-released thanks to the iconic status?
Quote from: 71 dB on June 02, 2024, 02:11:26 AMI have never heard about Mafalda before. Do younger people in Spanish-speaking countries know about it anymore? Perhaps these cartoons are being re-released thanks to the iconic status?
They've never been out of print, and are sold in book form. Many young people know about
Mafalda...
Quote from: ritter on June 02, 2024, 02:15:21 AMThey've never been out of print, and are sold in book form. Many young people know about Mafalda...
I see. :)
Quote from: Iota on June 02, 2024, 01:40:37 AMI was talking about poverty in relation to health, which tends to require immediate treatment and does not have time to wait around for long term poverty-reducing measures to kick in.
I thought you were talking in general. In the case of healthcare, I agree.
Quote from: 71 dB on June 02, 2024, 02:03:34 AMHow do you reduce poverty without granting a subsidy?
It's not about not granting subsidies where and when needed. It's about creating and sustaining economic conditions that will make such subsidies superfluous.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 02, 2024, 01:01:43 AMYour point about hospital appointments (several of which I have coming up) is a very good one Lol.
Same here, Jeffrey. My wife is due for a fairly minor op next month.
I don't wish to make the mistake of lighting the blue touch paper on this thread again but I must say after a double knee replacement last year, which was life changing, and as I say my wife's procedure coming up, the NHS have been fantastic. No way political and I fully realise people in other parts of the country are far less fortunate. There are lots of room for improvement which hopefully the next government will address.
Quote from: Irons on June 02, 2024, 05:11:38 AMSame here, Jeffrey. My wife is due for a fairly minor op next month.
I don't wish to make the mistake of lighting the blue touch paper on this thread again but I must say after a double knee replacement last year, which was life changing, and as I say my wife's procedure coming up, the NHS have been fantastic. No way political and I fully realise people in other parts of the country are far less fortunate. There are lots of room for improvement which hopefully the next government will address.
I'm pleased for you and your wife.
You can't judge a system as large as the NHS by anecdotes, you have to look at statistics. Many of those statistics don't look so good. The Daily Mail nails it
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12264717/DAILY-MAIL-COMMENT-Radical-treatment-NHS-100.html
As I said before, I am don't see any reason to think that there will be significant improvement from Labour.
Quote from: 71 dB on June 02, 2024, 02:03:34 AMHow do you reduce poverty without granting a subsidy?
You don't.
Quote from: Florestan on June 02, 2024, 03:18:38 AMIt's not about not granting subsidies where and when needed. It's about creating and sustaining economic conditions that will make such subsidies superfluous.
Most of the world lives in poverty. Roughly half of the world population lives on less than ~$7/day per the World Bank, with that threshold itself set for upper middle-income countries in order to have a metric to compare to the international poverty line. But, yes, creating and sustaining undefined economic conditions will result in outstanding outcomes.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 02, 2024, 05:22:14 AMI'm pleased for you and your wife.
You can't judge a system as large as the NHS by anecdotes, you have to look at statistics. Many of those statistics don't look as good as they were. The Daily Mail nails it
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12264717/DAILY-MAIL-COMMENT-Radical-treatment-NHS-100.html
Thanks. Of course the list of NHS horror stories is endless. Please believe me, I wasn't making a political point. I'm done with that. Mail and not Guardian makes a refreshing change. ;)
What's really astonishing is that absolutely no one I've come across takes the Tories seriously. It has become unacceptable to say you'll vote for them, as if only stupid people would trust them. They've gone from hero to zero in five years, entirely by their own doing, as if they had a death wish.
Decline and fall through decadence - like Gibbon said about the Roman empire.
They were never heroes to me! I'm enjoying their fall, I must say.
It's interesting that candidates for other parties are now asking us to vote for them; not as they have any hope of their party winning, but so as to provide some effective opposition to a Labour government :o .
I think I will spoil my ballot paper. I don't want any of them. To hell with them all.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 13, 2024, 01:09:52 AMI think I will spoil my ballot paper. I don't want any of them. To hell with them all.
There is an anecdote/urban legend that people quoted Isaiah 41, 24 (about false gods/idols) to spoil a ballot:
"Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you."
(in the classic Lutheran German translation the last phrase is rendered differently, more like "to choose/vote for you is an abomination", so that fits better.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 13, 2024, 01:09:52 AMI think I will spoil my ballot paper. I don't want any of them. To hell with them all.
That's just stupid. Always support the lesser evil when better options do not exist.
Quote from: 71 dB on June 13, 2024, 04:00:08 AMThat's just stupid. Always support the lesser evil when better options do not exist.
Not stupid at all. Some people, including me, are fed up with always voting for the lesser evil. A lesser evil now, a lesser evil five years ago, a lesser evil after five years etc etc etc: sum up all these "lesser" evils over two or three decades and the net result is a "greater" evil.
Until a month ago I was decided to spoil my ballot too but eventually I didn't. This doesn't mean that I love, or even moderately like, the party I voted for in the EU elections, it's just that it was unthinkable for me to vote for any other: I never voted and will never vote for the center-left Social-Democrats (the most corrupt and cronyism-practicing Romanian party whose ancestors are the ex-Communists); it's been a long time since I ceased voting for the center-right Liberals (shamelessly betraying both their principles and their electorate, they allied themselves with the SDP twice in a decade, each time just one year after bitterly denouncing them as a danger for democracy); and I am in complete and irreconcilable opposition to most, though not all, of what the nationalist party AUR stands for. That left me with only one option, the center-right party USR which in the preceding EU elections got 22% of the votes and were perceived back then as a fresh and viable alternative, only to hugely disappoint afterwards: in these elections they got only 9%. And I wouldn't have voted even for them, had they not supported the incumbent mayor of Bucharest, an independent (who actually founded the USR party, to be excluded two years later following shameless internal struggles for power) who just won a second term with 47%, that is 16% more than the votes for the SPD and NLP candidates taken together.
Bottom line, I am with
@Mandryka all the way: to hell with them all. We live not in a democracy but in a partitocracy. Unless and until the vicious circle of cumulative "lesser evils" is broken, things will improve, or even stay as relatively good as they are, at a slower rate than that at which they deteriorate. Otoh, I am fully aware that true and full democracy is an utopian ideal and that corrupt, stupid and inefficient politicians might be the price of liberty. Be it as it may, spoiling one's ballot is as legitimate and intelligent as voting for this or that party.
I just read an article stating that Reform UK, apparently Nigel Farage's party, has overtaken the Tories in polling. Did the Tories really shit the bed so badly that they have slipped to third place? Seriously, what did they do? Or maybe not do?
Quote from: Gore VidalDemocracy is supposed to give you the feeling of choice like, Painkiller X and Painkiller Y. But they're both just aspirin.
I never have to vote for the lesser evil. There are three parties in Finland I could give my vote to:
- The Green Party
- The Left Party
- The Social Democrats.
The Green and Left parties especially are to my liking since I am politically left/green meaning these parties advocate for policies I support. I'm sorry for people who live in corrupt countries with no good candidates/parties to vote for. If I did, I would vote for the lesser evil. That's the best that could be done.
Quote from: Todd on June 13, 2024, 12:20:17 PMSeriously, what did they do?
They only destroyed the UK for decades...
Quote from: Todd on June 13, 2024, 12:20:17 PMI just read an article stating that Reform UK, apparently Nigel Farage's party, has overtaken the Tories in polling. Did the Tories really shit the bed so badly that they have slipped to third place? Seriously, what did they do? Or maybe not do?
0. The highest personal taxes in living memory - possibly ever. Combined with the worst public services.
1. Partygate, which feels like a breach of confidence, and immoral to boot.
2. Truss, which feels like major major incompetence.
3. Johnson, who was the architect of Partygate, but also a liar.
4. Broken promises - in particular the promise to "level up" - google it.
5. Austerity for 14 years - with an attendant increase in poverty including child poverty and homelessness, and poorer public health provision.
6. A whole bunch of corruption and sex scandals, many not insignificant.
7. Support for Israel's genocide - this doesn't look good to anyone, and Muslims are particularly sensitive about it.
8. Increased (illegal and legal) immigration.
9. Sunak's campaign has been terribly mismanaged - from his announcement of the election in torrential rain, to leaving D Day commemorations early.
10. The feeling that they're not very serious about global warming.
All of the above, although I would say that the state of the country is markedly worse than the neutral tones of that list suggest.
There have been so many high points of Tory misrule that it is hard to know where to start. I can't even begin to describe my thoughts on Brexit, so I won't. But in terms of a single moment of colossal stupidity and arrogance, it was Truss and Kwarteng's devastating mini-budget. In one afternoon's work they put £100s onto mortgages - mine went up about £400 in total. How they can ever hope to be trusted with the economy again is beyond me.
This, coupled with the horrific levels of sleaze, lies, cronyism, corruption, greed, ignorance, cruelty, crassness... I think they may well - finally - have done for themselves.
Farage is a detestable, vile man in every sense. But if his nasty little party can split the Tory/Right vote as the Labour/Left vote has been split over the years (by Greens, Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid etc) then we might begin to see a somewhat more representative politics.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 14, 2024, 01:24:20 AM0. The highest personal taxes in living memory - possibly ever. Combined with the worst public services.
1. Partygate, which feels like a breach of confidence, and immoral to boot.
2. Truss, which feels like major major incompetence.
3. Johnson, who was the architect of Partygate, but also a liar.
4. Broken promises - in particular the promise to "level up" - google it.
5. Austerity for 14 years - with an attendant increase in poverty including child poverty and homelessness, and poorer public health provision.
6. A whole bunch of corruption and sex scandals, many not insignificant.
7. Support for Israel's genocide - this doesn't look good to anyone, and Muslims are particularly sensitive about it.
8. Increased (illegal and legal) immigration.
9. Sunak's campaign has been terribly mismanaged - from his announcement of the election in torrential rain, to leaving D Day commemorations early.
10. The feeling that they're not very serious about global warming.
An interesting list. Items 0 and 5 could work together if the UK did not run deficits, but I see that the UK runs high deficits, so it is literally and objectively the worst of all worlds. Item 8 seems bizarre to me given that the UK is an island nation with only one non-seaport entry, so one would think managing immigration would be quite easy. Item 7 seems refreshing. In the US, support for Israel is politically mandatory and criticizing the obvious genocide (with ~1.5% of the Gazan population already mass murdered by Israel) is politically costly or deadly.
Corruption and individual incompetence and sex scandals are all natural parts of politics, and I often choose to see them as free entertainment, no matter the country. And I confess I have some sympathy for Liz Truss for having been bested by produce.
(It looks like even Tony Blair used the phrase "level up", so I would have thought that phrase forever tainted, but obviously not.)
Quote from: Todd on June 14, 2024, 04:34:36 AMAn interesting list. Items 0 and 5 could work together if the UK did not run deficits, but I see that the UK runs high deficits, so it is literally and objectively the worst of all worlds. Item 8 seems bizarre to me given that the UK is an island nation with only one non-seaport entry, so one would think managing immigration would be quite easy. Item 7 seems refreshing. In the US, support for Israel is politically mandatory and criticizing the obvious genocide (with ~1.5% of the Gazan population already mass murdered by Israel) is politically costly or deadly.
Corruption and individual incompetence and sex scandals are all natural parts of politics, and I often choose to see them as free entertainment, no matter the country. And I confess I have some sympathy for Liz Truss for having been bested by produce.
No sympathy here. Her pig headedness is costing me and many thousands of others £100s every month. What bested her was common sense.
Quote from: Todd on June 14, 2024, 04:34:36 AM(It looks like even Tony Blair used the phrase "level up", so I would have thought that phrase forever tainted, but obviously not.)
Speaking of 'levelling up' here's one of Sunak's older gaffes (there have been so many). Unbelievable, really, allowing yourself to be filmed saying this:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/05/video-emerges-of-rishi-sunak-admitting-to-taking-money-from-deprived-areas
Quote from: Luke on June 14, 2024, 04:48:26 AMNo sympathy here. Her pig headedness is costing me and many thousands of others £100s every month. What bested her was common sense.
I was kidding. When whichever paper it was put up the head of lettuce and a clock, it provided several guffaws. When the triumph of the lettuce was announced, I laughed heartily. We need something like that here in cases where it could apply - eg, disgraced Congressman George Santos. We'd need something that takes longer to wilt in the case of Honest Bob Menendez.
With Sunak, he is associated intimately with Infosys, so I am naturally disposed to despise everything about that ambulatory meatbag. (The video is like watching a real-world episode of
Veep.)
Quote from: Todd on June 14, 2024, 04:34:36 AMUK is an island nation with only one non-seaport entry,
Incorrect. Beside the Eurotunnel, UK has terrestrial border with Ireland.
Quote from: Florestan on June 14, 2024, 05:01:35 AMIncorrect. Beside the Eurotunnel, UK has terrestrial border with Ireland.
Immigrants stuck in Northern Ireland would obviously want to get to big island.
Quote from: Todd on June 14, 2024, 04:58:24 AMambulatory meatbag.
Fabulous phrase, I'll be using that, thanks!
Quote from: Luke on June 14, 2024, 02:24:09 AMBut in terms of a single moment of colossal stupidity and arrogance, it was Truss and Kwarteng's devastating mini-budget. In one afternoon's work they put £100s onto mortgages - mine went up about £400 in total. How they can ever hope to be trusted with the economy again is beyond me.
We wonder, occasionally, who now has the £7000 that was swept away almost overnight from our lifetime savings (which we thought were very safely and responsibly invested) by Liz Truss and her henchman. I confess that I await eagerly the demise of the Tories, simply to see a measure of justice done.
For me the killer was Partygate. Sometimes I watch those hospital documentaries called something like "24 hours in A and E", an old one, set in lockdown, and there are people who cannot be with their suffering, agonising, loved ones because of COVID restrictions, people everywhere wearing masks. And it makes my blood boil -- this was going on everywhere in Britain except for one place: 10 Downing Street.
And there's this of course
(https://e3.365dm.com/21/08/768x432/skynews-queen-obit-philip-funeral_5475397.jpg?20220425163911)
https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-downing-street-apologises-to-the-queen-for-number-10-lockdown-parties-held-on-eve-of-prince-philips-funeral-12515732
This is real decadence in action!
Yes, all of the above, and so many more. They are an utter disgrace.
Quote from: ultralinear on June 14, 2024, 06:24:25 AMFor me it was the RAF plane that was laid on to evacuate from a besieged Kabul airport a load of stray dogs belonging to a charity run by a friend of Mrs Johnson, leaving behind on the tarmac many desperate Afghans who had aided the British military, a list of whom had helpfully been supplied to the Taliban. It is inconceivable that that was not approved at the highest level.
Yes, I agree.
Exasperating as all those things were and are, if we're talking about why the Tories are leaking votes to Reform, and allowing the latter to sneak ahead of them, I think 'getting Brexit dun' is probably still a major driver. The loss of Boris and the many post-Brexit ambiguities and consequent ideological unease of Brexiteers, means the appearance of Farage must be like the big (very) white hope reborn, and for many on the right surely a beacon towards which they can gravitate.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 14, 2024, 01:24:20 AM0. The highest personal taxes in living memory - possibly ever. Combined with the worst public services.
1. Partygate, which feels like a breach of confidence, and immoral to boot.
2. Truss, which feels like major major incompetence.
3. Johnson, who was the architect of Partygate, but also a liar.
4. Broken promises - in particular the promise to "level up" - google it.
5. Austerity for 14 years - with an attendant increase in poverty including child poverty and homelessness, and poorer public health provision.
6. A whole bunch of corruption and sex scandals, many not insignificant.
7. Support for Israel's genocide - this doesn't look good to anyone, and Muslims are particularly sensitive about it.
8. Increased (illegal and legal) immigration.
9. Sunak's campaign has been terribly mismanaged - from his announcement of the election in torrential rain, to leaving D Day commemorations early.
10. The feeling that they're not very serious about global warming.
Looks like a gang of unrepentant and irredeemable SOB.
My question is: how much better and trustful is the Labour Party? Too high hopes placed on them may result in bitter disappointment. And beside that, at least the right has Reform as an alternative to the Tories, no matter how good or bad --- is there any decent alternative to Labour? And on top of it all, the first-past-the post system is imho far worse than the proportionally representative one: at least in the latter people who are unhappy with both the main parties still have a good chance to be represented in the parliament by other parties, whereas the former drastically reduce such a chance. The drawback is that proportional representation may result in extreme political fragmentation and stalemate, but again imho even this is preferable to a two-party monopoly on politics whereby they regularly change place as "government" and "opposition". After all, political fragmentation is natural and the norm rather than the exception. I don't believe that two parties only suffice to offer an accurate picture of a nation's real political spectrum.
Quote from: Florestan on June 15, 2024, 04:33:37 AMLooks like a gang of unrepentant and irredeemable SOB.
My question is: how much better and trustful is the Labour Party?
It doesn't matter when it comes to the outcome of this election. The Tories are unelectable.
Quote from: Florestan on June 15, 2024, 04:33:37 AMLooks like a gang of unrepentant and irredeemable SOB.
And beside that, at least the right has Reform as an alternative to the Tories, no matter how good or bad --- is there any decent alternative to Labour?
My own view is that Reform and the Conservatives will merge into one new party.
Quote from: Florestan on June 15, 2024, 04:33:37 AMis there any decent alternative to Labour?
No. The labour party is in practice the Conservative party with a different brand identity. Their policies are conservative. There is no Left in the UK.
Quote from: Florestan on June 15, 2024, 04:33:37 AMAnd on top of it all, the first-past-the post system is imho far worse than the proportionally representative one: at least in the latter people who are unhappy with both the main parties still have a good chance to be represented in the parliament by other parties, whereas the former drastically reduce such a chance. The drawback is that proportional representation may result in extreme political fragmentation and stalemate, but again imho even this is preferable to a two-party monopoly on politics whereby they regularly change place as "government" and "opposition". After all, political fragmentation is natural and the norm rather than the exception. I don't believe that two parties only suffice to offer an accurate picture of a nation's real political spectrum.
The first past the post system is one of the ways Capitalism has invented to manage universal enfranchisement while ensuring that power and wealth remains in the hands of an elite. It ensures that minority interests are not represented at all.
@Florestan Well, no, this is precisely right, we need PR, FPTP is a flagrantly ridiculous system that often results in a hugely distorted HOC. But as it favours the Con/Lab duopoly to keep it, there's very little hope of change. The Labour party membership are generally pro-PR, but it is a matter that the leadership have never really allowed discussion on.
Re your previous point, yes, there have always been other parties on the left, from Greens to Lib Dem (traditionally a 'centre' party but these days to the left of Labour in a number of issues). The existence of these parties has no doubt pulled a lot of votes from Labour in the past, so in that sense the fact that Reform are doing so to the Tories is a kind of justice! ;D
Mandryka's comment about there being no Left left, as it were, is also true, though Just different shades of Right.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 15, 2024, 05:07:16 AMNo. The labour party is in practice the Conservative party with a different brand identity. Their policies are conservative. There is no Left in the UK.
You'll get used to it. Americans have.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 15, 2024, 05:07:16 AMNo. The labour party is in practice the Conservative party with a different brand identity. Their policies are conservative. There is no Left in the UK.
The first past the post system is one of the ways Capitalism has invented to manage universal enfranchisement while ensuring that power and wealth remains in the hands of an elite. It ensures that minority interests are not represented at all.
Single-member-district system discourages ideologue candidates and encourages moderate, centrist candidates as the former don't win plural vote within districts. Proportional representation system, utilized in Scandinavia, Low Countries, et al., doesn't discourage ideological parties. But after elections, all these ideologue members may have difficulty making consensus in legislature.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 15, 2024, 05:07:16 AMThe Tories are unelectable.
Except for those who will vote for them. ;D
QuoteMy own view is that Reform and the Conservatives will merge into one new party.
I'm willing to bet 10 to 1 that the "new" party's name will be the Conservative Party. ;D
Merging by absorption --- I've seen that so many times in Romanian politics.
QuoteNo. The labour party is in practice the Conservative party with a different brand identity. Their policies are conservative. There is no Left in the UK.
The French say:
La même Jeannette, autrement coiffée. (literally,
The same Jane, differently hair-dressed).
The Romanian say:
Aceeaşi Mărie, cu altă pălărie. (literally,
The same Mary, (with) different hat).
The rhyme and rhythm in Romanian are stronger. 8)
[]quoteThe first past the post system is one of the ways Capitalism has invented to manage universal enfranchisement while ensuring that power and wealth remains in the hands of an elite. It ensures that minority interests are not represented at all.
[/quote]
I guess it depends on how you define Capitalism.
[/quote]
Lord Cameron accuses Nigel Farage of 'trying to destroy Conservative Party' (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/15/david-cameron-nigel-farage-trying-to-destroy-conservatives/)
From an outside perspective, it appears that Cameron is a right proper bitch.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 15, 2024, 05:07:16 AMThere is no Left in the UK.
Quote from: Luke on June 15, 2024, 05:16:30 AMMandryka's comment about there being no Left left, as it were, is also true, though Just different shades of Right.
I've always identified myself as center-right (making allowance for Continental Europe CR being somewhat different from UK and US) --- but the complete absence of left in any country is not good. It's positively bad, actually.
Imho, what the world desperately needs today more than ever is the Center-Center, or even the Far-Center. ;D
Unfortunately, they'll never win any election in any country.
Quote from: Florestan on June 15, 2024, 06:20:15 AMImho, what the world desperately needs today more than ever is the Center-Center, or even the Far-Center. ;D
Words have no meaning on GMG.
Quote from: Todd on June 15, 2024, 06:22:33 AMWords have no meaning on GMG.
That might be true. What is certainly true is that some GMGers utterly lack any sense of humor/irony.
Quote from: Florestan on June 15, 2024, 06:26:39 AMThat might be true. What is certainly true is that some GMGers utterly lack any sense of humor/irony.
It has nothing to do with a sense of humor, but rather a sense of reality.
Quote from: Todd on June 15, 2024, 06:27:30 AMIt has nothing to do with a sense of humor, but rather a sense of reality.
You want a sense of reality? Fine, here's some sense of reality.
You said:
Quote from: Todd on June 15, 2024, 05:32:56 AMYou'll get used to [not having any Left in the UK]. Americans have.
Now, either you believe that the American political system is the universal standard by which all others should be judged --- in which case you are a cultural chauvinist. Or, you don't believe that the American political system is the universal standard by which all others should be judged --- but in this case, why recommend American complacency to non-Americans?
Quote from: Florestan on June 15, 2024, 06:41:03 AMNow, either you believe that the American political system is the universal standard by which all others should be judged --- in which case you are a cultural chauvinist. Or, you don't believe that the American political system is the universal standard by which all others should be judged --- but in this case, why recommend American complacency to non-Americans?
Yep, you are detached from reality.
Quote from: Todd on June 15, 2024, 06:53:48 AMYep, you are detached from reality.
Who brought American reality into this discussion? ::)
And here's another sense of reality.
You said:
Quote from: Todd on June 14, 2024, 04:34:36 AMthe UK is an island nation with only one non-seaport entry
This is false. Besides the Eurotunnel and the terrestrial border with Ireland, each and every international UK airport is a non-seaport entry to UK.
Frankly, I'm surprised you made such a colossal blunder.
Quote from: Florestan on June 15, 2024, 06:56:42 AMAnd here's another sense of reality.
You said:
This is false. Besides the Eurotunnel and the terrestrial border with Ireland, each and every international UK airport is a non-seaport entry to UK.
Frankly, I'm surprised you made such a colossal blunder.
Florestan is on fire again.
Quote from: Todd on June 15, 2024, 06:57:13 AMFlorestan is on fire again.
Each and every time I made a mistake with respect to you, I publicly acknowledged it and stood corrected; nay, I even publicly apologized. As different from you, who have never ever. I guess it's a cultural thing... ;D
Quote from: Florestan on June 15, 2024, 07:00:28 AMEach and every time I made a mistake with respect to you, I publicly acknowledged it and stood corrected; nay, I even publicly apologized. As different from you, who have never ever. I guess it's a cultural thing... ;D
Incorrect. You falsely claimed that the Taliban defeated the USSR and then doubled down on it.
Quote from: Todd on June 15, 2024, 07:02:24 AMIncorrect. You falsely claimed that the Taliban defeated the USSR and then doubled down on it.
Did I? Well, okay: I was wrong and I publicly stand corrected. The Taliban did not defeat the USSR. My bad. I publicly apologize for making a factually incorrect statement.
Now, how many non-seaport entry points are there into UK?
Quote from: Todd on June 14, 2024, 04:34:36 AMItem 8 seems bizarre to me given that the UK is an island nation with only one non-seaport entry, so one would think managing immigration would be quite easy.
Unfortunately people would rather risk their lives crossing the English Channel in unsuitable boats than live in the EU ::) .
Quote from: Florestan on June 15, 2024, 07:04:59 AMNow, how many non-seaport entry points are there into UK?
I do not know. Please provide the appropriate links. Keep in mind that the topic at hand was immigration, with a partial/special focus on illegal/irregular immigration, where airports do not factor in. When providing the links, you should easily be able to also include the applicable statistics pertaining to immigration. Since you are the subject matter expert on this topic, I await your informative posts with no little eagerness.
Quote from: steve ridgway on June 15, 2024, 07:06:19 AMUnfortunately people would rather risk their lives crossing the English Channel in unsuitable boats than live in the EU ::) .
If you were otherwise forced to live in Belgium, surely such a tradeoff would make sense.
Quote from: Todd on June 15, 2024, 07:12:49 AMIf you were otherwise forced to live in Belgium, surely such a tradeoff would make sense.
They need to be shown some of the grimmest British reality TV. Can't we send some information into France attached to balloons like North Korea does?
Quote from: Todd on June 15, 2024, 07:09:48 AMI do not know. Please provide the appropriate links. Keep in mind that the topic at hand was immigration, with a partial/special focus on illegal/irregular immigration, where airports do not factor in. When providing the links, you should easily be able to also include the applicable statistics pertaining to immigration. Since you are the subject matter expert on this topic, I await your informative posts with no little eagerness.
Once again, you said:
Quote from: Todd on June 14, 2024, 04:34:36 AMthe UK is an island nation with only one non-seaport entry
This is factually incorrect --- and you can ex-post facto rationalize it till you're blue in the face. It won't change the fact that your statement went against (a sense of) reality.
Now, if you had said:
the UK is an island nation with only one non-seaport entry for illegal immigrantsyou might have been right, provided ID and passport checks are required or effective for flights from Belfast to Great Britain island proper.
Quote from: Florestan on June 15, 2024, 07:18:59 AMOnce again, you said:
This is factually incorrect --- and you can ex-post facto rationalize it till you're blue in the face. It won't change the fact that your statement went against (a sense of) reality.
Now, if you had said:
the UK is an island nation with only one non-seaport entry for illegal immigrants
you might have been right, provided ID and passport checks are required or effective for flights from Belfast to Great Britain island proper.
Context is crucial. I still await your informative posts.
Quote from: steve ridgway on June 15, 2024, 07:17:17 AMThey need to be shown some of the grimmest British reality TV.
The Real Housewives of Cheshire?
Quote from: Florestan on June 15, 2024, 07:18:59 AMOnce again, you said:
This is factually incorrect --- and you can ex-post facto rationalize it till you're blue in the face. It won't change the fact that your statement went against (a sense of) reality.
Now, if you had said:
the UK is an island nation with only one non-seaport entry for illegal immigrants
you might have been right, provided ID and passport checks are required or effective for flights from Belfast to Great Britain island proper.
They're actually going the other way now, to the Republic of Ireland so as to avoid being sent to Rwanda.
Quote from: Todd on June 15, 2024, 07:22:28 AMThe Real Housewives of Cheshire?
I haven't seen this but it appears to be a UK version of an American show.
Quote from: steve ridgway on June 15, 2024, 07:25:31 AMI haven't seen this but it appears to be a UK version of an American show.
I assume so, and if it is, it should dissuade even the most desperate soul yearning to cross the channel.
Quote from: Todd on June 15, 2024, 07:22:28 AMThe Real Housewives of Cheshire?
Have you seen TOWIE in America?
I live in Essex
The Republic of Ireland wants to define the UK as a safe country to which they can push asylum seekers back.
BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/czq588jqz8lo)
They no doubt got this idea after the Conservatives made Rwanda safe by law so the courts could no longer say it wasn't ::) .
Quote from: Mandryka on June 15, 2024, 07:49:51 AMHave you seen TOWIE in America?
I have not. I shall place it atop my 2079 viewing queue forthwith.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 15, 2024, 05:07:16 AMThere is no Left in the UK.
Of course there is Left in the UK. Workers Party of Britain, Green Party of England and Wales, People Before Profit... ...the Left just doesn't have any real political power. The UK is a class society mentally still in the 19th century. The system is rigged to be against the Left as much as possible.
Quote from: Irons on June 16, 2024, 12:45:04 AMI was born in Essex
I was born in Yorkshire and live in Lancashire.
How messed-up is that?
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on June 16, 2024, 05:03:00 AMI was born in Yorkshire and live in Lancashire.
How messed-up is that?
Real Yorkshire and Lancashire or one of the bits with the wrong boundaries?(https://saddind.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/By-Craig-Hannah.jpg)
Nigel Farage raps an Eminem song
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x90bif2
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on June 16, 2024, 05:03:00 AMI was born in Yorkshire and live in Lancashire.
How messed-up is that?
Why? Ignorant American here. :-[
Quote from: steve ridgway on June 16, 2024, 07:51:43 AMReal Yorkshire and Lancashire or one of the bits with the wrong boundaries?
(https://saddind.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/By-Craig-Hannah.jpg)
Wrong boundaries??
PD
Yorkshire-Lancashire rivalry (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roses_rivalry#:~:text=The%20term%20%22Roses%20rivalry%22%20refers,and%20the%20House%20of%20York.) AKA Roses Rivalry
Quote from: Luke on June 16, 2024, 03:36:16 PMYorkshire-Lancashire rivalry (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roses_rivalry#:~:text=The%20term%20%22Roses%20rivalry%22%20refers,and%20the%20House%20of%20York.) AKA Roses Rivalry
So, the War of the Roses still exists in some form?! :( Why the heck?!
PD
Just a bit of fun, really.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 16, 2024, 03:20:25 PMWhy? Ignorant American here. :-[
Wrong boundaries??
PD
The counties as divisions of the UK go back many hundreds of years and developed distinct cultures but have been tampered with to create more convenient units for local government such as "Greater Manchester". However they have proven quite resilient as with that band marching through Saddleworth to celebrate Yorkshire Day, or on a number of informative boundary signs. Hence some people's antipathy to being absorbed into the EU and some arbitrary region designed to undermine national identity.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Benkid77_River_Mersey_sign%2C_A56_250709.JPG/640px-Benkid77_River_Mersey_sign%2C_A56_250709.JPG)
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on June 15, 2024, 05:49:08 AMSingle-member-district system discourages ideologue candidates and encourages moderate, centrist candidates as the former don't win plural vote within districts. Proportional representation system, utilized in Scandinavia, Low Countries, et al., doesn't discourage ideological parties. But after elections, all these ideologue members may have difficulty making consensus in legislature.
18% of the poll say they'll vote for Reform. They are forecast to win 2 constituencies out of 650. Is this democracy? Is it a good thing? You're the expert!
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/voting-intention
https://x.com/BritainElects/status/1802305636635419004
Quote from: Mandryka on June 17, 2024, 02:52:57 AM18% of the poll say they'll vote for Reform. They are forecast to win 2 constituencies out of 650. Is this democracy? Is it a good thing? You're the expert!
Seems like underrepresentation to me, but as it is in a different country, I will lose zero minutes of sleep over it.
When I got online this morning, I saw multiple articles wherein Nigel Farage claims he will go for the PM slot in 2029. Don't know if he's serious or not. Either way, this UK election is getting more coverage than normal in my normal news sources.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 17, 2024, 02:52:57 AM18% of the poll say they'll vote for Reform. They are forecast to win 2 constituencies out of 650. Is this democracy? Is it a good thing? You're the expert!
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/voting-intention
https://x.com/BritainElects/status/1802305636635419004
The bad thing is that it's unrepresentative and undemocratic. The good thing is that it discourages extreme ideologues, such as neo-Nazi, communist, white supremacist parties, and encourages moderate, centrist parties- usually the two major parties. It tends to encourage a swift policy change/policy making by a (new) majority party in parliament in contrast to a time-consuming and sometimes unpredictable bargaining process in a multi-party parliament with proportional representation system. Sometimes the latter is unable to make a majority coalition to make policy (so-called Gordian Knot). In short, the Anglo system is for a swift policy change in the government rather than fair representation of voters.
Iron law in politics/government is that there is a trade off between efficiency and representation in government.
Saw this from The Telegraph this morning, and I did, in fact, LOL: Lazy civil servants are driving Britain to the brink (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/18/civil-service-public-spending-uk-reform/)
At least the paper is consistent. Here's an op-ed from April: The lazy, bloated civil service is dragging Britain down - and we are all paying for it (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/30/lazy-bloated-civil-service-dragging-britain-paying/)
Fortunately, in the States, press coverage is much, much less sensational, more sober, and less obviously partisan. Whew!
Quote from: Todd on June 18, 2024, 07:08:08 AMSaw this from The Telegraph this morning, and I did, in fact, LOL: Lazy civil servants are driving Britain to the brink (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/18/civil-service-public-spending-uk-reform/)
At least the paper is consistent. Here's an op-ed from April: The lazy, bloated civil service is dragging Britain down - and we are all paying for it (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/30/lazy-bloated-civil-service-dragging-britain-paying/)
Fortunately, in the States, press coverage is much, much less sensational, more sober, and less obviously partisan. Whew!
The British media is very partisan, not just mainstream print media, but also the BBC. It's all part of the managed democracy we live with. The Telegraph used to be a Tory paper, I think it abandoned the Conservatives after Boris was ousted and now supports Farage. The left would claim that Corbyn failed (partly?) because of the way he was presented by the press and by television.
Younger cohorts just aren't interested in mainstream media - but Tik Tok, Youtube, X all present their own biases, with highly managed feeds.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 18, 2024, 07:15:04 AMIt's all part of the managed democracy we live
This would imply that corporate entities, via wealthy managers, and wealthy individuals rule in an oligarchic manner. That simply cannot be, not in 2024. No way. Nuh-uh.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 18, 2024, 07:15:04 AMYounger cohorts just aren't interested in mainstream media - but Tik Tok, Youtube, X all present their own biases, with highly managed feeds.
This can't be true. The information superhighway is unbiased and truthful. I was promised as much in the 90s and I firmly believe it. I know in my heart it is true in the US!!
I think we can forget Reform UK now. Farage said the West provoked Russia to invade Ukraine by "expanding" the EU and NATO in their direction. I don't recall the EU or NATO driving tanks over the borders and annexing anyone ::) .
Quote from: steve ridgway on June 21, 2024, 11:12:05 PMI think we can forget Reform UK now. Farage said the West provoked Russia to invade Ukraine by "expanding" the EU and NATO in their direction. I don't recall the EU or NATO driving tanks over the borders and annexing anyone ::) .
(https://i.ibb.co/wKbqgwS/IMG-0944.jpg)
Quote from: steve ridgway on June 21, 2024, 11:12:05 PMI think we can forget Reform UK now. Farage said the West provoked Russia to invade Ukraine by "expanding" the EU and NATO in their direction. I don't recall the EU or NATO driving tanks over the borders and annexing anyone ::) .
Something fishy about Farage. Where is the funding coming from? Reform is not short of cash by any means. Is he in cahoots with Trump? The criticism of NATO is from the Trump songbook. The way Farage rolled into Clacton surrounded by bodyguards spilling from a fleet of top range Land Rovers a scary sight. If Reform is the new British right and Trump wins, God help us!
Quote from: steve ridgway on June 21, 2024, 11:12:05 PMFarage said the West provoked Russia to invade Ukraine by "expanding" the EU and NATO in their direction. I don't recall the EU or NATO driving tanks over the borders and annexing anyone ::) .
Finland joined NATO
because Russia attacked Ukraine. Without the war in Ukraine Finland (and Sweden) would not be members of NATO today. Clearly annexing parts of Ukraine is much more important for Russia than keeping Finland out of NATO. Otherwise they would have kept away from Ukraine and instead practised peaceful rhetoric.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 16, 2024, 03:20:25 PMWhy? Ignorant American here. :-[
Wrong boundaries??
PD
Curiously, there has always been a heightened feeling whenever Yorkshire played Lancashire at cricket (referred to as a 'Roses Match'). I'm happy to say that no player ever died in one of these matches, and the reigning Monarch's continuance did not depend on the result.
From Alistair Campbell
JUST BEEN LEAKED NOTE BY HEAD OF TORY CAMPAIGN (the one standing in for the one on leave of absence courtesy of William Hill) MEMO ALL CANDIDATES ... THE REALITY. 1. We cannot campaign on our record because nothing has improved since we took office. 2. The biggest change we made last Parliament was Brexit and we can't campaign on that because the people who hated it hate it more and the people who liked it know we have ballsed it up. 3. We can't campaign on our leaders because we have had five in eight years which suggests none of them were very good. 4. We can't campaign on Labour being a risk to security and the economy because nobody can do worse than we have and anyway people seem to think
@Keir_Starmer
is pretty decent and he is for sure not Corbyn. 5. So LADS, all we have left is this ... behave like we have lost, it's all over bar the shouting, towel thrown in, and hope to God millions of people don't bother to vote us out because they think somebody else will do it. I know it's desperate and a bit anti-democratic but needs must. We're shit and we know we are and so this is it!!! Fuck everything up. Crash the car. Make ourselves look even more unelectable and useless at campaigns. Willie Whitelaw used to talk about travelling the country stirring up apathy. That is all we have left. Do it. Talk up supermajority. I know it is meaningless but it is the only way to stop the superdefeat we all know we deserve. Cheers. Btw we're having Sunday drinks 1pm. BYOB 🍾 🥂 ps new slogan. STAY AT HOME. DON'T VOTE. KEEP THE TORIES haha!!
https://x.com/campbellclaret/status/1805169230431559700?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Quote from: Mandryka on June 24, 2024, 02:43:50 AMFrom Alistair Campbell
1. We cannot campaign on our record because nothing has improved since we took office.
==> the Labour SHOULD campaign on the lack of improvements during Tory reign.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 24, 2024, 02:43:50 AM2. The biggest change we made last Parliament was Brexit and we can't campaign on that because the people who hated it hate it more and the people who liked it know we have ballsed it up.
To be fair there never was a way to make Brexit work (for regular people that is, for the elite it is working just fine I believe).
Quote from: Mandryka on June 24, 2024, 02:43:50 AM3. We can't campaign on our leaders because we have had five in eight years which suggests none of them were very good.
Yep. It has been a clown show and British people are paying dearly for the circus.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 24, 2024, 02:43:50 AM4. We can't campaign on Labour being a risk to security and the economy because nobody can do worse than we have and anyway people seem to think
@Keir_Starmer is pretty decent and he is for sure not Corbyn.
Starmer is certainly not Corbyn! He is much worse, but most probably better than what Tory
leaders/clowns have been. His insistence on the UK never trying to get back into EU under his leadership is politically idiotic considering how the support for Brexit is diminishing when people are seeing/realising what it has brought to the UK/them.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 24, 2024, 02:43:50 AM5. So LADS, all we have left is this ... behave like we have lost, it's all over bar the shouting, towel thrown in, and hope to God millions of people don't bother to vote us out because they think somebody else will do it. I know it's desperate and a bit anti-democratic but needs must. We're shit and we know we are and so this is it!!! Fuck everything up. Crash the car. Make ourselves look even more unelectable and useless at campaigns. Willie Whitelaw used to talk about travelling the country stirring up apathy. That is all we have left. Do it. Talk up supermajority. I know it is meaningless but it is the only way to stop the superdefeat we all know we deserve. Cheers. Btw we're having Sunday drinks 1pm. BYOB 🍾 🥂 ps new slogan. STAY AT HOME. DON'T VOTE. KEEP THE TORIES haha!!
Political apathy might be best for Tories at this point. In general the right tends to benefit from low voter turnout. Rich people don't suffer from apathy and hopelessness. Poor people do.
Quote from: 71 dB on June 25, 2024, 06:31:49 AMTo be fair there never was a way to make Brexit work (for regular people that is, for the elite it is working just fine I believe).
Well Boris Johnson campaigned on
"Get Brexit Done" and it is indeed done as much as it could be and we don't hear much about it now.
The current headlines are around who in the Conservative Party, Sunak's police protection squad, and their mates found out the date of the election and bet on it before it was publicly announced.
Quote from: steve ridgway on June 25, 2024, 06:50:27 AMThe current headlines are around who in the Conservative Party, Sunak's police protection squad, and their mates found out the date of the election and bet on it before it was publicly announced.
Opportunists! :D
Quote from: steve ridgway on June 25, 2024, 06:50:27 AMWell Boris Johnson campaigned on "Get Brexit Done" and it is indeed done as much as it could be and we don't hear much about it now.
That's a conspiracy of silence I guess. That's to say, the political class don't want to have the issue raised because they don't have anything to good say, and their client journalists toe the line.
In fact polls show significant disaffection with the Tory's post Brexit strategy but upward pressure on the media doesn't seem to be being felt - maybe in the Telegraph (a large Reform readership), I don't know.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mD7hbykd/IMG-0945.jpg)
https://portillogeddon.com/
Conservative Wipeout Bingo 2024
Quote from: Mandryka on July 04, 2024, 02:26:59 AMhttps://portillogeddon.com/
Conservative Wipeout Bingo 2024
Tip top that :laugh: :laugh:
Sent it to a relative planning an all-nighter 8)
Quote from: Mandryka on July 04, 2024, 02:26:59 AMhttps://portillogeddon.com/
Conservative Wipeout Bingo 2024
I like what they've done with some of those (s)mugshots. E.g the Truss* one
(Truss was/is the MP where I lived previously, in SW Norfolk, to my despair; my current one is Cleverly, which is almost as bad. My brother's, next door, is Priti Patel.... we really do pick 'em in East Anglia. How many will survive the night.... )
Quote from: Luke on July 04, 2024, 03:55:27 AMI like what they've done with some of those (s)mugshots. E.g the Truss* one
(Truss was/is the MP where I lived previously, in SW Norfolk, to my despair; my current one is Cleverly, which is almost as bad. My brother's, next door, is Priti Patel.... we really do pick 'em in East Anglia. How many will survive the night.... )
I can trump (pardon the pun) your Priti Patel - my next-door MP is Jacob Grease-Bog
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 04, 2024, 04:04:56 AMmy next-door MP is Jacob Grease-Bog
I can hardly imagine the depth of your suffering.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 04, 2024, 04:04:56 AMI can trump (pardon the pun) your Priti Patel - my next-door MP is Jacob Grease-Bog
Ooof. That's nasty!
Quote from: Mandryka on July 04, 2024, 02:26:59 AMhttps://portillogeddon.com/
Conservative Wipeout Bingo 2024
LOL at least the leadership election will be easier with so few to choose from ;) .
I'm not voting. Labour deserve a chance and I'm fine with them having a go at stopping the decline, but don't want to feel responsible when it all comes to nothing :'( .
Exit poll gives Labour enormous 269 seat majority.
Current results Lab 87 - Con 10.
Lab 203 - Con 32.
I can see a pattern here ;) .
Lab 331 - Con 70.
180 results yet to come but Labour have already won 8) .
Landslide.
I have no love for Labour but a change of government long overdue. The Johnson/Truss/Sunak axis has been an absolute disaster. I see the rise of Reform a greater threat to the future of the Conservative party then the Labour party. Bad night for SNP too and the reasons behind their downfall not far removed from the Tories. Power does corrupt.
Quote from: Florestan on July 05, 2024, 12:06:01 AMLandslide.
N.B Labour took about 34% of all votes cast. Another way of putting it is, 66% of voters didn't want Labour.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 05, 2024, 12:26:32 AMN.B Labour took about 34% of all votes cast. Another way of putting it is, 66% of voters didn't want Labour.
What kind of a democracy is that, in which a party who took about 34% of all votes gets the vast majority of the seats? To me looks like a sham. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on July 05, 2024, 12:46:36 AMWhat kind of a democracy is that, in which a party who took about 34% of all votes gets the vast majority of the seats? To me looks like a sham. ;D
It happens every time with the current electoral system here. The case for proportional representation, in which vote share actually equates to seat share, grows stronger each election. The Labour conference even voted in favour of having it in the Labour manifesto, though Starmer predictably vetoed that. It's a Catch-22 really, the only way to get rid of Labour and the Conservatives is through PR, but the only way to get PR is to get rid of Labour and the Conservatives. As long as we go back and forth between the big two nothing will change.
Quote from: Florestan on July 05, 2024, 12:46:36 AMWhat kind of a democracy is that, in which a party who took about 34% of all votes gets the vast majority of the seats? To me looks like a sham. ;D
An alternative voting procedure was rejected in a referendum in 2011
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum
(https://i.ibb.co/1MrLcJ0/Capture.jpg)
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49947-why-are-britons-voting-labour
Quote from: Mandryka on July 05, 2024, 03:09:33 AMAn alternative voting procedure was rejected in a referendum in 2011
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum
Why, sure, the AV sounds way more complicated than PR.
The only real and most democratic alternative is PR, but it seems that the UK political establishment is afraid of it like of plague. ;D
Did Sunak ever explain why he called for early elections? From an outsider's perspective, things do not appear to have gone well for the Tories, so his decision seems sub-optimal in some ways.
That he thought he might catch the other parties unprepared, but for the most part, knowing that a general election could be called at any point, they were about ready to go. The only people truly unprepared were the rest of the Tory party, who thought he'd leave it till the last possible moment. He's a genius.
Also, that he wanted to catch a brief window of better economic figures than will likely be coming down the line.
Quote from: Luke on July 05, 2024, 04:48:38 AMThat he thought he might catch the other parties unprepared, but for the most part, knowing that a general could be called at any point, they were about ready to go. The only people truly unprepared were the rest of the Tory party, who thought he'd leave it till the last possible moment. He's a genius.
Totally unlike Macron, then, who literally destroyed the French center and left France torn apart between far right and far left. ;D
Congrats to all the UK members of the board...enjoy this brief window before disappointment sets in! 8)
Quote from: Florestan on July 05, 2024, 12:46:36 AMWhat kind of a democracy is that, in which a party who took about 34% of all votes gets the vast majority of the seats? To me looks like a sham. ;D
Increase in the Liberal Democrats' vote share: 0.6%
Increase in the number of Liberal Democrat seats: 60 (545%)
Total wipeout of the Conservatives here in Wales, from 14 seats to 0. Particularly unlamented will be their candidate in Montgomery, Craig Williams, who was one of the first to be caught placing bets on the date of the election (although the BBC, in its impartiality, always managed to publish the most smirky, greasy, self-satisfied-looking pictures of him). Not much more missed will be my former local man, ex-HM Secretary of State for Wales, David "Top Cat" Davies, an Army veteran from the Hanging and Flogging wing of the party.
Quote from: DaveF on July 05, 2024, 05:53:36 AMIncrease in the Liberal Democrats' vote share: 0.6%
Increase in the number of Liberal Democrat seats: 60 (545%)
How anyone can find this situation normal is beyond me.
Quote from: Florestan on July 05, 2024, 06:09:38 AMHow anyone can find this situation normal is beyond me.
In fact, I got the second figure wrong: increase in seats was 63, making their final total 750% of their original.
It's because the vote is for candidates not parties. I used to find this grotesque as well but I don't think a proportional system (or a mix like in Germany) is better, or more precisely, it has different faults. The German system has been "captured" by parties all of which are disgusting and corrupt, and independent candidates would be possible but not feasible in practice because of party power. In the British system parties could in principle be abolished.
The thing you might not be aware of
@Todd is that Sunak was pretty well campaigning alone. We saw very little of his cabinet over the past month, and practically nothing of his Chancellor Jeremy Hunt, the architect of Sunak's main claim to success. It's almost as if he was abandoned by the troops, who may well have been angry that he'd called a June election.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 05, 2024, 07:06:02 AMThe thing you might not be aware of @Todd is that Sunak was pretty well campaigning alone. We saw very little of his cabinet over the past month, and practically nothing of his Chancellor Jeremy Hunt, the architect of Sunak's main claim to success. It's almost as if he was abandoned by the troops, who may well have been angry that he'd called a June election.
Poor fella. I hope he will be OK. I saw that he and his wife have a net worth of only £651 million, and upkeep of Kirby Sigston Manor is quite dear.
Now that Sir Keir has taken the helm, I trust the City will be brought to heel.
Quote from: Todd on July 05, 2024, 07:10:30 AMPoor fella. I hope he will be OK. I saw that he and his wife have a net worth of only £651 million, and upkeep of Kirby Sigston Manor is quite dear.
Now that Sir Keir has taken the helm, I trust the City will be brought to heel.
Too bad they found out about the U.S. green card he held while in UK government. Did he have to give it up in the end?
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 05, 2024, 07:21:44 AMDid he have to give it up in the end?
That's an excellent question. Hopefully he did, but bureaucratic snafus regularly stymie even the most routine actions.
He gave it up in fall 2021 before his first official trip to the US as a government minister. However, he still owns a $7M penthouse in Santa Monica:
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/19/rishi-sunak-california-00164050
Quote from: Jo498 on July 05, 2024, 06:51:45 AMIt's because the vote is for candidates not parties.
I'm not at all convinced by that. See the graph Mandryka posted above: the Labour was voted mostly to get rid of the Tories, ie people voted for one party and against other party. I very much doubt that if the Labour candidates would have run as independents they could have beaten the Tories so badly.
QuoteThe German system has been "captured" by parties all of which are disgusting and corrupt, and independent candidates would be possible but not feasible in practice because of party power.
It's exactly the same in Romania but even so, PR offers a more correct image of the political spectrum of a country.
And in the very recent Romanian local elections independents did quite well actually, they won the mayoralty of Bucharest (re-election with more votes than all next three party candidates together) and another city and a seat in the EU, which is no small achievement.
QuoteIn the British system parties could in principle be abolished.
I very much doubt that too.
Quote from: Brian on July 05, 2024, 07:37:32 AMHe gave it up in fall 2021 before his first official trip to the US as a government minister.
Good to know. Obviously, the place in Cali is a low rent Plan B, so who knows if he ever visits it again.
Quote from: Todd on July 05, 2024, 07:10:30 AMNow that Sir Keir has taken the helm, I trust the City will be brought to heel.
Well The City voted in a labour MP.
Conservatives have almost vanished from London. And that despite the fact that London has done better than most other places over the past 14 years.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 05, 2024, 07:56:24 AMWell The City voted in a labour MP.
Does that represent capitulation or capture?
Quote from: Todd on July 05, 2024, 07:59:08 AMDoes that represent capitulation or capture?
What it represents is clear thinking, the Conservatives are clearly unfit to rule. It's obvious now. I'm quite surprised that they won as many seats as they did - I expected they'd be down to double figures max.
This election has been the most boring I've ever experienced because the result was so predictable. There was no contest.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 05, 2024, 08:02:23 AMWhat it represents is clear thinking, the Conservatives are clearly unfit to rule. It's obvious now.
Wasn't it obvious with lettuce lady?
Quote from: Todd on July 05, 2024, 08:04:17 AMWasn't it obvious with lettuce lady?
Truss was more complex than that - the history has yet to be written. In my view things fell apart a few days after her budget, when Kwarteng gave an interview effectively saying that there was more of this round the corner, you ain't seen nothing yet. That's what spooked the markets.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62966306
Everyone (I think) agrees that Truss's perception of the problem was spot on - the problem is low productivity, low growth. Her solution, on the other hand, was implemented and presented disastrously.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 05, 2024, 08:09:19 AMHer solution, on the other hand, was implemented and presented disastrously.
That seems to imply being unfit to rule.
Quote from: Todd on July 05, 2024, 08:14:35 AMThat seems to imply being unfit to rule.
Indeed. Kwarteng said that she felt that she had such a small amount of time to make an impact that major, drastic, measures were called for. He said that she pushed him to go further and further in his budget.
But this is a serious error of judgement on her part and yes, she was unfit to rule.
I see Jeremy Corbyn got elected as an independent so expect to hear him raise the odd question in parliament.
Despite all the talk of a great Labour victory, the statistics seem to indicate that the Tories lost the election, rather than Labour actually winning it. 40% of the electorate didn't vote at all. Only about 35% of those who did vote, voted for Labour. That means that Britain will be governed by a party that is supported by only 21% of the population. I'm very glad to see the back of the Tories - I've had quite enough of their country-wrecking antics - but these figures do concern me. A vote for 'anyone except the Tories' gets them out, but it would be more helpful to be able to have a consensus voting for something.
Quote from: Todd on July 05, 2024, 04:20:16 AMDid Sunak ever explain why he called for early elections? From an outsider's perspective, things do not appear to have gone well for the Tories, so his decision seems sub-optimal in some ways.
I've given my thoughts on this already, but this account is in a Guardian article this morning:
QuoteThe decision to go for July had been taken by Sunak himself and his core team – Liam Booth-Smith, his chief of staff, James Forsyth, his political secretary, Craig Williams, his parliamentary aide, and Claire Coutinho, his energy secretary and former adviser. The theory they alighted on was that "nobody was listening" and they had to call an election to make the public start paying attention. "We need to make the undecided voters notice us," one No 10 insider said.
One of the strategies was to throw out eye-catching policies, such as the return of national service, in the hope that voters would give them a second chance and look to a Sunak-led future instead of a Liz Truss and Boris Johnson-tainted past.
Unfortunately, it only caught their own side off-guard. This was the start of a rupture at the centre of the Conservatives' organising effort, although there had been longstanding tensions over strategy between Sunak and Levido dating back to summer last year.
Looks like Sunak and crew were out of touch. Oh well. Now, it looks like Macron is in for a tough weekend. Incumbents are having something of a rough go of it. Maybe war and associated dislocations are not popular with voters. Of course, it's worse on this side of the pond. Here, Democracy! itself is at stake, and it is literally the most important election ever. The people on the TV say so.
These are scary times. Etc.
I was in hospital on Friday so missed a lot of the fun and have been catching up with the election news. I think that the Conservatives have Truss and Johnson to blame for the debacle. I was delighted to see Truss and Rees-Mogg thrown out. Felt sorry for Sunak who, I think, spoke with great dignity and was an excellent Chancellor during the Covid Pandemic. Personally I was very pleased to see the Liberal-Democrats win 71 seats, their best result for 100 years. My favourite candidate was Count Bin-Face.
I was delighted that Count Bin-Face got 300 votes in Sunak's race.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2024, 05:35:10 AMMy favourite candidate was Count Bin-Face.
Mine was this guy [r] as Ree-Smug [l] lost his seat
(https://i2-prod.bristolpost.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/article9390563.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/0_senior-conservative-sir-jacob-rees-mogg-listens-to-the-results-of-the-count-for-his-north-east-somerset-and-hanham-seat.jpg)
Hope you are OK, Jeffrey.
Quote from: Luke on July 06, 2024, 06:22:47 AMMine was this guy [r] as Ree-Smug [l] lost his seat
(https://i2-prod.bristolpost.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/article9390563.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/0_senior-conservative-sir-jacob-rees-mogg-listens-to-the-results-of-the-count-for-his-north-east-somerset-and-hanham-seat.jpg)
Hope you are OK, Jeffrey.
Thanks Luke - a scheduled (not major) operation which the surgeon, in a three second discussion afterwards, when I was still more or less comatose, told me had gone well (I think that's what he said!). Now recovering at home (they throw you out the hospital ASAP) and catching up on the election news. I tried to post s photo of Count Bin-Face but my computer is being very uncooperative when I try to post images which I have not already saved. Maybe you could post one on my behalf choosing an appropriate example! ;D
+ 3
Quote from: Brian on July 06, 2024, 06:22:06 AMI was delighted that Count Bin-Face got 300 votes in Sunak's race.
Evidently, Elmo made an appearance:
(https://cloudfront-eu-central-1.images.arcpublishing.com/thenational/MGJP5MAL4N65LBUCMMNBHDIHSQ.jpg)
One senses Cruella Braverman has come out of this somewhat licking her lips at the prospect of pouncing on No.10 in five or ten years time.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2024, 06:49:41 AMThanks Luke - a scheduled (not major) operation which the surgeon, in a three second discussion afterwards, when I was still more or less comatose, told me had gone well (I think that's what he said!). Now recovering at home (they throw you out the hospital ASAP) and catching up on the election news. I tried to post s photo of Count Bin-Face but my computer is being very uncooperative when I try to post images which I have not already saved. Maybe you could post one on my behalf choosing an appropriate example! ;D
Good luck with the recuperation, vandermolen. :) I don't think you missed a great deal with the election, all pretty much as expected give or take a few figures. I was surprised by how narrow some of the winning margins are, Hendon for example was by 15 votes!
Re Count Bin-Face, the video below gives a fair idea.
Thank you guys - I'm doing fine thanks. Recuperating at home. I'll spare you the details but it's a fairly common problem (for men of my age!) It was not major surgery (all done by laser). I was out the same day as the operation with nursing support 'Hospital at Home' for a few days. I am lucky - the operation, done privately would have cost me £7,000. The NHS charged me nothing and I had excellent care and a free egg sandwich and cup of tea afterwards ;D
Quote from: Iota on July 06, 2024, 07:23:29 AMOne senses Cruella Braverman has come out of this somewhat licking her lips at the prospect of pouncing on No.10 in five or ten years time.
Good luck with the recuperation, vandermolen. :) I don't think you missed a great deal with the election, all pretty much as expected give or take a few figures. I was surprised by how narrow some of the winning margins are, Hendon for example was by 15 votes!
Re Count Bin-Face, the video below gives a fair idea.
Thanks so much - great video! In my youth there was 'Lord Bucket-Head'.
Much as I like hijacking every thread to talk exclusively about myself I thought that I'd return to political events. I was moved to read that Rishi Sunak told his wife and children that they shouldn't be too sad as the election result showed how British democracy worked. Much the same can be said when Churchill was voted out immediately after the Second World War.
PS For correction see Luke's message below. The hospital anaesthetic hasn't quite worn off yet!
Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2024, 07:46:28 AMMuch as I like hijacking every thread to talk exclusively about myself I thought that I'd return to political events. I was moved to read that Rishi Sunak told his wife and children that they shouldn't be too sad as the election result showed how British democracy worked. Much the same can be said when Churchill was voted out immediately after the Second World War.
Well, I know one candidate here who won't except the results if he loses. >:( :(
PD
Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2024, 07:46:28 AMMuch as I like hijacking every thread to talk exclusively about myself I thought that I'd return to political events. I was moved to read that Rishi Sunak told his wife and children that they shouldn't be too sad as the election result showed how British democracy worked. Much the same can be said when Churchill was voted out immediately after the Second World War.
I thought it was Hunt who said that? Maybe both of them....
Quote from: Luke on July 06, 2024, 10:50:09 AMI thought it was Hunt who said that? Maybe both of them....
Oh, I think you are right Luke - my apologies.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 06, 2024, 09:07:22 AMWell, I know one candidate here who won't except the results if he loses. >:( :(
PD
V good point PD!
Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2024, 06:49:41 AMThanks Luke - a scheduled (not major) operation which the surgeon, in a three second discussion afterwards, when I was still more or less comatose, told me had gone well (I think that's what he said!). Now recovering at home (they throw you out the hospital ASAP) and catching up on the election news. I tried to post s photo of Count Bin-Face but my computer is being very uncooperative when I try to post images which I have not already saved. Maybe you could post one on my behalf choosing an appropriate example! ;D
You are important here. We need to see the full post-surgical report. It's comparable in importance to Biden's neurological report. :)
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 06, 2024, 02:14:50 PMYou are important here. We need to see the full post-surgical report. It's comparable in importance to Biden's neurological report. :)
HAHA I appreciate that ;D
But I think that it would be a case of 'too much information' :o
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 06, 2024, 09:07:22 AMWell, I know one candidate here who won't except the results if he loses. >:( :(
PD
That is what terrifies me about the US election. If Agent Orange wins then the election is a complete vindication, if he looses its proof of the deep state fix. NOTHING will change that either/or narrative and only chaos for the USA seems the outcome in either scenario.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2024, 05:35:10 AMI was in hospital on Friday
Wishing quick recovery Jeffrey whatever the issue is/was.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2024, 05:35:10 AMMy favourite candidate was Count Bin-Face
I learned about this candidate when watching this YT-video:
Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2024, 05:35:10 AMMy favourite candidate was Count Bin-Face.
The one next to Mogg is my favourite
(https://preview.redd.it/jacob-rees-mogg-standing-next-to-man-wearing-a-baked-beans-v0-f4e1johy6nad1.jpeg?auto=webp&s=37143e1a3db7fa6b95414db96e0ad50c5800cbb9)
Quote from: Mandryka on July 07, 2024, 03:55:32 AMThe one next to Mogg is my favourite
(https://preview.redd.it/jacob-rees-mogg-standing-next-to-man-wearing-a-baked-beans-v0-f4e1johy6nad1.jpeg?auto=webp&s=37143e1a3db7fa6b95414db96e0ad50c5800cbb9)
Captain Beany
Quote from: 71 dB on July 07, 2024, 03:06:45 AMWishing quick recovery Jeffrey whatever the issue is/was.
I learned about this candidate when watching this YT-video:
Thank you 71 dB :)
(https://i.imgur.com/eIcRyXu.jpeg)
;D
Among other remarks, Anthony Davis exults in the peaceful transfer of power over London way (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJkwKdoPlVk).
Quote from: Karl Henning on July 09, 2024, 06:18:08 AMAmong other remarks, Anthony Davis exults in the peaceful transfer of power over London way (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJkwKdoPlVk).
Not only London which rejected conservatism, but Paris also.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 09, 2024, 07:27:22 AMNot only London which rejected conservatism, but Paris also.
Mais oui!
Quote from: Mandryka on July 09, 2024, 07:27:22 AMNot only London which rejected conservatism, but Paris also.
I thought the votes were national votes, but maybe not. In any event, the French voted for a hung parliament.
France24 has a nice, high level overview: French government in limbo after elections produce hung parliament (https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20240708-french-government-in-limbo-after-elections-produce-hung-parliament)
Quote from: Todd on July 09, 2024, 10:18:28 AMI thought the votes were national votes, but maybe not. In any event, the French voted for a hung parliament.
France24 has a nice, high level overview: French government in limbo after elections produce hung parliament (https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20240708-french-government-in-limbo-after-elections-produce-hung-parliament)
Of course national, I was just echoing the headline of the video Karl posted.
They have indeed voted for a hung parliament -- in whic the far right has very little power or influence -- for now.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 09, 2024, 10:53:24 AMOf course national, I was just echoing the headline of the video Karl posted.
Todd's snarky interpretation seems wilfully dense.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 09, 2024, 10:53:24 AMThey have indeed voted for a hung parliament -- in whic the far right has very little power or influence -- for now.
Maybe Le Pen and crew gain more influence over time, maybe not, but the election does display no little dissatisfaction with the ruling party of President Van Halen. The real story of politics right now is global dissatisfaction with incumbents. People who try to simplify it down to a right-left dichotomy are missing the rather obvious, larger point and trend.
I will confess that I enjoy the fact that the French turn on all their presidents eventually. Macron's popularity was down to 36% or thereabouts before the vote, but Hollande, before he went, was down to 4%, or basically the margin of error. That's awesome. Every country needs that.
Voters voted for the parties they favored. Their individual decisions led to an aggregate/collective result of what is called hung parliament. Individual voters did not vote for a hung parliament or parliament with an absolute majority faction.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on July 09, 2024, 11:06:34 AMVoters voted for the parties they favored. Their individual decisions led to an aggregate/collective result of what is called hung parliament. Individual voters did not vote for a hung parliament or parliament with an absolute majority faction.
Yes, that's how the French system works. Very good. Perhaps you can add some clear, informed analysis of why the voters voted the way they did, especially outside of the largest metropolitan areas.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on July 09, 2024, 11:06:34 AMVoters voted for the parties they favored. Their individual decisions led to an aggregate/collective result of what is called hung parliament. Individual voters did not vote for a hung parliament or parliament with an absolute majority faction.
In the same way that, much as I like the song, you don't buy a ticket for a runaway train.
Quote from: Karl Henning on July 09, 2024, 12:52:08 PMIn the same way that, much as I like the song, you don't buy a ticket for a runaway train.
;D ;D ;D
The posts referring to US politics in this thread have been deleted. There is a reason why there is "no thread where to post [on US politics]", and we all know how discussions on US politics descended into acrimony and nastiness in the past.
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