UK General Election 2024

[71 dB]

I never have to vote for the lesser evil. There are three parties in Finland I could give my vote to:

- The Green Party
- The Left Party
- The Social Democrats.

The Green and Left parties especially are to my liking since I am politically left/green meaning these parties advocate for policies I support. I'm sorry for people who live in corrupt countries with no good candidates/parties to vote for. If I did, I would vote for the lesser evil. That's the best that could be done.

[71 dB]

Seriously, what did they do? 

They only destroyed the UK for decades...

[Mandryka]

I just read an article stating that Reform UK, apparently Nigel Farage's party, has overtaken the Tories in polling.  Did the Tories really shit the bed so badly that they have slipped to third place?  Seriously, what did they do?  Or maybe not do?

0. The highest personal taxes in living memory - possibly ever. Combined with the worst public services.
1. Partygate, which feels like a breach of confidence, and immoral to boot.
2. Truss, which feels like major major incompetence.
3. Johnson, who was the architect of Partygate, but also a liar.
4. Broken promises - in particular the promise to "level up" - google it.
5. Austerity for 14 years - with an attendant increase in poverty including child poverty and homelessness, and  poorer public health provision.
6. A whole bunch of corruption and sex scandals, many not insignificant.
7. Support for Israel's genocide - this doesn't look good to anyone, and Muslims are particularly sensitive about it.
8. Increased (illegal and legal) immigration.
9. Sunak's campaign has been terribly mismanaged - from his announcement of the election in torrential rain, to leaving D Day commemorations early.
10. The feeling that they're not very serious about global warming.

[Luke]

All of the above, although I would say that the state of the country is markedly worse than the neutral tones of that list suggest.

There have been so many high points of Tory misrule that it is hard to know where to start. I can't even begin to describe my thoughts on Brexit, so I won't. But in terms of a single moment of colossal stupidity and arrogance, it was Truss and Kwarteng's devastating mini-budget. In one afternoon's work they put £100s onto mortgages - mine went up about £400 in total. How they can ever hope to be trusted with the economy again is beyond me.

This, coupled with the horrific levels of sleaze, lies, cronyism, corruption, greed, ignorance, cruelty, crassness... I think they may well - finally - have done for themselves.

Farage is a detestable, vile man in every sense. But if his nasty little party can split the Tory/Right vote as the Labour/Left vote has been split over the years (by Greens, Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid etc) then we might begin to see a somewhat more representative politics. 

[Todd]

0. The highest personal taxes in living memory - possibly ever. Combined with the worst public services.
1. Partygate, which feels like a breach of confidence, and immoral to boot.
2. Truss, which feels like major major incompetence.
3. Johnson, who was the architect of Partygate, but also a liar.
4. Broken promises - in particular the promise to "level up" - google it.
5. Austerity for 14 years - with an attendant increase in poverty including child poverty and homelessness, and  poorer public health provision.
6. A whole bunch of corruption and sex scandals, many not insignificant.
7. Support for Israel's genocide - this doesn't look good to anyone, and Muslims are particularly sensitive about it.
8. Increased (illegal and legal) immigration.
9. Sunak's campaign has been terribly mismanaged - from his announcement of the election in torrential rain, to leaving D Day commemorations early.
10. The feeling that they're not very serious about global warming.

An interesting list.  Items 0 and 5 could work together if the UK did not run deficits, but I see that the UK runs high deficits, so it is literally and objectively the worst of all worlds.  Item 8 seems bizarre to me given that the UK is an island nation with only one non-seaport entry, so one would think managing immigration would be quite easy.  Item 7 seems refreshing.  In the US, support for Israel is politically mandatory and criticizing the obvious genocide (with ~1.5% of the Gazan population already mass murdered by Israel) is politically costly or deadly. 

Corruption and individual incompetence and sex scandals are all natural parts of politics, and I often choose to see them as free entertainment, no matter the country.  And I confess I have some sympathy for Liz Truss for having been bested by produce.

(It looks like even Tony Blair used the phrase "level up", so I would have thought that phrase forever tainted, but obviously not.)

[Luke]

An interesting list.  Items 0 and 5 could work together if the UK did not run deficits, but I see that the UK runs high deficits, so it is literally and objectively the worst of all worlds.  Item 8 seems bizarre to me given that the UK is an island nation with only one non-seaport entry, so one would think managing immigration would be quite easy.  Item 7 seems refreshing.  In the US, support for Israel is politically mandatory and criticizing the obvious genocide (with ~1.5% of the Gazan population already mass murdered by Israel) is politically costly or deadly. 

Corruption and individual incompetence and sex scandals are all natural parts of politics, and I often choose to see them as free entertainment, no matter the country.  And I confess I have some sympathy for Liz Truss for having been bested by produce.

No sympathy here. Her pig headedness is costing me and many thousands of others £100s every month. What bested her was common sense.

(It looks like even Tony Blair used the phrase "level up", so I would have thought that phrase forever tainted, but obviously not.)

Speaking of 'levelling up' here's one of Sunak's older gaffes (there have been so many). Unbelievable, really, allowing yourself to be filmed saying this:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/05/video-emerges-of-rishi-sunak-admitting-to-taking-money-from-deprived-areas

[Todd]

No sympathy here. Her pig headedness is costing me and many thousands of others £100s every month. What bested her was common sense.

I was kidding.  When whichever paper it was put up the head of lettuce and a clock, it provided several guffaws.  When the triumph of the lettuce was announced, I laughed heartily.  We need something like that here in cases where it could apply - eg, disgraced Congressman George Santos.  We'd need something that takes longer to wilt in the case of Honest Bob Menendez. 

With Sunak, he is associated intimately with Infosys, so I am naturally disposed to despise everything about that ambulatory meatbag.  (The video is like watching a real-world episode of Veep.)

[Florestan]

UK is an island nation with only one non-seaport entry,

Incorrect. Beside the Eurotunnel, UK has terrestrial border with Ireland.

[Todd]

Incorrect. Beside the Eurotunnel, UK has terrestrial border with Ireland.

Immigrants stuck in Northern Ireland would obviously want to get to big island. 

[Luke]

ambulatory meatbag.

Fabulous phrase, I'll be using that, thanks!

[Elgarian Redux]

But in terms of a single moment of colossal stupidity and arrogance, it was Truss and Kwarteng's devastating mini-budget. In one afternoon's work they put £100s onto mortgages - mine went up about £400 in total. How they can ever hope to be trusted with the economy again is beyond me.

We wonder, occasionally, who now has the £7000 that was swept away almost overnight from our lifetime savings (which we thought were very safely and responsibly invested) by Liz Truss and her henchman. I confess that I await eagerly the demise of the Tories, simply to see a measure of justice done.

[Mandryka]

For me the killer was Partygate. Sometimes I watch those hospital documentaries called something like "24 hours in A and E", an old one, set in lockdown, and there are people who cannot be with their suffering, agonising,  loved ones because of COVID restrictions, people everywhere wearing masks. And it makes my blood boil -- this was going on everywhere in Britain except for one place: 10 Downing Street.

And there's this of course



https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-downing-street-apologises-to-the-queen-for-number-10-lockdown-parties-held-on-eve-of-prince-philips-funeral-12515732

This is real decadence in action!

[Luke]

Yes, all of the above, and so many more. They are an utter disgrace.

[vandermolen]

For me it was the RAF plane that was laid on to evacuate from a besieged Kabul airport a load of stray dogs belonging to a charity run by a friend of Mrs Johnson, leaving behind on the tarmac many desperate Afghans who had aided the British military, a list of whom had helpfully been supplied to the Taliban.  It is inconceivable that that was not approved at the highest level.

Yes, I agree.

[Iota]

Exasperating as all those things were and are, if we're talking about why the Tories are leaking votes to Reform, and allowing the latter to sneak ahead of them, I think 'getting Brexit dun' is probably still a major driver. The loss of Boris and the many post-Brexit ambiguities and consequent ideological unease of Brexiteers, means the appearance of Farage must be like the big (very) white hope reborn, and for many on the right surely a beacon towards which they can gravitate.

[Florestan]

0. The highest personal taxes in living memory - possibly ever. Combined with the worst public services.
1. Partygate, which feels like a breach of confidence, and immoral to boot.
2. Truss, which feels like major major incompetence.
3. Johnson, who was the architect of Partygate, but also a liar.
4. Broken promises - in particular the promise to "level up" - google it.
5. Austerity for 14 years - with an attendant increase in poverty including child poverty and homelessness, and  poorer public health provision.
6. A whole bunch of corruption and sex scandals, many not insignificant.
7. Support for Israel's genocide - this doesn't look good to anyone, and Muslims are particularly sensitive about it.
8. Increased (illegal and legal) immigration.
9. Sunak's campaign has been terribly mismanaged - from his announcement of the election in torrential rain, to leaving D Day commemorations early.
10. The feeling that they're not very serious about global warming.

Looks like a gang of unrepentant and irredeemable SOB.

My question is: how much better and trustful is the Labour Party? Too high hopes placed on them may result in bitter disappointment. And beside that, at least the right has Reform as an alternative to the Tories, no matter how good or bad --- is there any decent alternative to Labour? And on top of it all, the first-past-the post system is imho far worse than the proportionally representative one: at least in the latter people who are unhappy with both the main parties still have a good chance to be represented in the parliament by other parties, whereas the former drastically reduce such a chance. The drawback is that proportional representation may result in extreme political fragmentation and stalemate, but again imho even this is preferable to a two-party monopoly on politics whereby they regularly change place as "government" and "opposition". After all, political fragmentation is natural and the norm rather than the exception. I don't believe that two parties only suffice to offer an accurate picture of a nation's real political spectrum.

[Mandryka]

Looks like a gang of unrepentant and irredeemable SOB.

My question is: how much better and trustful is the Labour Party?

It doesn't matter when it comes to the outcome of this election. The Tories are unelectable.

Looks like a gang of unrepentant and irredeemable SOB.

 And beside that, at least the right has Reform as an alternative to the Tories, no matter how good or bad --- is there any decent alternative to Labour?

My own view is that Reform and the Conservatives will merge into one new party.

is there any decent alternative to Labour?

No. The labour party is in practice the Conservative party with a different brand identity.  Their policies are conservative.  There is no Left in the UK.

And on top of it all, the first-past-the post system is imho far worse than the proportionally representative one: at least in the latter people who are unhappy with both the main parties still have a good chance to be represented in the parliament by other parties, whereas the former drastically reduce such a chance. The drawback is that proportional representation may result in extreme political fragmentation and stalemate, but again imho even this is preferable to a two-party monopoly on politics whereby they regularly change place as "government" and "opposition". After all, political fragmentation is natural and the norm rather than the exception. I don't believe that two parties only suffice to offer an accurate picture of a nation's real political spectrum.

The first past the post system is one of the ways Capitalism has invented to manage universal enfranchisement while ensuring that power and wealth remains in the hands of an elite. It ensures that minority interests are not represented at all.

[Luke]

@Florestan
Well, no, this is precisely right, we need PR, FPTP is a flagrantly ridiculous system that often results in a hugely distorted HOC. But as it favours the Con/Lab duopoly to keep it, there's very little hope of change. The Labour party membership are generally pro-PR, but it is a matter that the leadership have never really allowed discussion on.

Re your previous point, yes, there have always been other parties on the left, from Greens to Lib Dem (traditionally a 'centre' party but these days to the left of Labour in a number of issues). The existence of these parties has no doubt pulled a lot of votes from Labour in the past, so in that sense the fact that Reform are doing so to the Tories is a kind of justice! 

[Luke]

Mandryka's comment about there being no Left left, as it were, is also true, though  Just different shades of Right.

[Todd]

No. The labour party is in practice the Conservative party with a different brand identity.  Their policies are conservative.  There is no Left in the UK.

You'll get used to it.  Americans have.