GMG Classical Music Forum

Me, most likely.

Yes, I hate being back in this place again of watching Biden and Trump debate, but here we are and it is important.

Yes, definitely watching (with thoughts similar to David's), though frankly, I prefer "debate" in quotation marks.

-Bruce

No. I know exactly where each candidate stands.

Both have been president, so I don't expect anything more or less from either of them for the next presidential cycle. I really don't believe a debate is necessary between these two, other than mere spectacle.
VS

Quote from: VonStupp on June 24, 2024, 02:18:42 PMNo. I know exactly where each candidate stands.

Both have been president, so I don't expect anything more or less from either of them for the next presidential cycle. I really don't believe a debate is necessary between these two, other than mere spectacle.
VS

Very good (and rational) opinion.

Won't watch it live.

"Politics is the entertainment division of the military industrial complex." - Frank Zappa

"Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people." - Theodore Roosevelt

I suspect these two statements to be true therefore I think my answer is 'Not Sure', which also happens to be the name of a character in the movie Idiocracy, something that seems somehow relevant here.

What does a one off debate prove? SFA!

Quote from: VonStupp on June 24, 2024, 02:18:42 PMNo. I know exactly where each candidate stands.

Both have been president, so I don't expect anything more or less from either of them for the next presidential cycle. I really don't believe a debate is necessary between these two, other than mere spectacle.
VS

The dismal state of affairs is that both candidates claim that the other suffers dementia. The debate will at least give each candidate a chance to prove he is not senile. I doubt I would watch even if I could (I can't). I will have to be satisfied with the tabulation of gaffs that will appear the next morning.

In this puppet theatre, the real contest is between the remnants of the concept of the free world and the new powerful global force of autocracy. The problem is that one "candidate" is too weak and the other too convoluted. The winners of the US election may well already be known, they are Xi and his vassal Pu.

Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 24, 2024, 11:40:05 PMThe dismal state of affairs is that both candidates claim that the other suffers dementia.

Yes but so far only one of them has publicly displayed behavior and talk which might be seen as symptoms of senility. Honestly, I am absolutely shocked that the party of Kennedy, Clinton and Obama could not come up with a younger and healthier alternative.

Is anyone in America undecided?

Quote from: steve ridgway on June 25, 2024, 05:22:46 AMIs anyone in America undecided?

As the Mid-terms showed, there really is a Middle of the electorate which will determine the outcome. They paid attention to the January 6 hearings, and to the results of the Convicted Felon's several trials, so I expect they will mark the debate, as well. Oh, and the consistently significant "Anyone but Trump, please" protest vote in the Republican primaries, even well after all of the non-diapered opponents had officially ended their campaigns.

Quote from: Florestan on June 25, 2024, 04:45:55 AMHonestly, I am absolutely shocked that the party of Kennedy, Clinton and Obama could not come up with a younger and healthier alternative.

The choice between two old white dudes is scarcely the ideal, but I think that Biden's experience and concomitant talent for getting things done has been the major factor. There is younger talent in the Party, but as yet none of the "youngsters" has had any knack for appealing to the aforementioned Middle. Hopefully they will learn, sooner rather than later.

Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 24, 2024, 11:40:05 PMI doubt I would watch even if I could (I can't). I will have to be satisfied with the tabulation of gaffs that will appear the next morning.

Aye; I fear it will be unavoidable.
VS

Quote from: Karl Henning on June 25, 2024, 05:53:16 AMAs the Mid-terms showed, there really is a Middle of the electorate which will determine the outcome. They paid attention to the January 6 hearings, and to the results of the Convicted Felon's several trials, so I expect they will mark the debate, as well. Oh, and the consistently significant "Anyone but Trump, please" protest vote in the Republican primaries, even well after all of the non-diapered opponents had officially ended their campaigns.

Oh that's good, it seemed odd to have a country divided so evenly that the result could be disputed.

No. I am a decided voter and won't learn anything. Certainly will not learn anything that outweighs the irritation and stress of having to watch them. Basically, what VonStupp says.

Quote from: Florestan on June 25, 2024, 04:45:55 AMYes but so far only one of them has publicly displayed behavior and talk which might be seen as symptoms of senility. Honestly, I am absolutely shocked that the party of Kennedy, Clinton and Obama could not come up with a younger and healthier alternative.

See, in the first sentence, I thought you were talking about the other one.

Quote from: Florestan on June 25, 2024, 04:45:55 AMYes but so far only one of them has publicly displayed behavior and talk which might be seen as symptoms of senility. Honestly, I am absolutely shocked that the party of Kennedy, Clinton and Obama could not come up with a younger and healthier alternative.

Biden has a life-long stutter and has been a gaff machine for all of his political life. I have come across numerous essays by clinical psychiatrists who point out that Trump's use of language has shown marked deterioration. He also has the intellectual acumen of a man who would remark about George Washington "You know, they thought he had slaves. Actually I think he probably didn't." George Washington is one of the most well known figures in American history, was possibly the wealthiest plantation owner in the country and owned more than 300 slaves at his death. In his will he freed one.

In my opinion, neither candidate has the physical stamina for this extremely demanding job. One is dangerous.

Now we are on a forbidden subject.

Quote from: steve ridgway on June 25, 2024, 05:22:46 AMIs anyone in America undecided?

Welcome to American politics... yes and they determine who wins.  A small fraction of undecided voters in the swing states will decide the election.  That is really what all this is about... the debates, marketing, marketing in all but name from Fox News and MSNBC... it is about persuading that small fraction of people who really determine the outcome of the election.

Quote from: steve ridgway on June 25, 2024, 05:22:46 AMIs anyone in America undecided?

Yes.  The opinions and votes of most of them will not matter.  Only undecided voters in a subset of swing states may be able to influence the outcome, as David mentioned.  The number of states ranges between seven and thirteen, depending on source.  Thirteen is of course the number of colonies, and it is also the number of states needed to kill a Constitutional Amendment.  It is a lucky number.

Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 25, 2024, 06:53:06 AMOne is dangerous.

Both are dangerous.  Current US foreign policy conclusively demonstrates that.

Quote from: DavidW on June 25, 2024, 06:54:54 AMWelcome to American politics... yes and they determine who wins.  A small fraction of undecided voters in the swing states will decide the election.  That is really what all this is about... the debates, marketing, marketing in all but name from Fox News and MSNBC... it is about persuading that small fraction of people who really determine the outcome of the election.

I agree. Swing voters in Michigan, Pennsylvania, NC, Georgia, Arizona, Nevada, and Wisconsin. Other states are effectually determined already.

Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 25, 2024, 06:53:06 AMIn my opinion, neither candidate has the physical stamina for this extremely demanding job.

Oh, I agree. They are both unprepared and unfit for being POTUS, especially in these times.

QuoteOne is dangerous.

The current US foreign policy is set on escalating the war in Ukraine and on a collision course with Russia sooner or later. How is that any less dangerous than what Trump might or might not do?

EDIT: I see @Todd beat me to it.

Quote from: Florestan on June 25, 2024, 07:30:27 AMThe current US foreign policy is set on escalating the war in Ukraine ....

This conflates enabling Ukraine to defend itself (a position from which I do not read you as dissenting) with "escalation." Personally, I'd rather have Biden trying to thread that needle. How does that differ from what the Convicted Felon would do? That's obvious: he would abase himself before Putin and undermine NATO. Only apologists for Moscow think this is a good idea.

Anyone who thinks there are no swing voters left missed this piece of True Cinema...

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/5146BxCC6fL._AC_UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg)

Quote from: Karl Henning on June 25, 2024, 07:39:14 AMThis conflates enabling Ukraine to defend itself (a position from which I do not read you as dissenting) with "escalation."

For all the money, armament and training Ukraine has been given in these two years, the results have been very modest so far. It is obvious that Ukraine cannot win the war. To believe, as Zelensky apparently does, that they will recover all lost territories, including Crimea, is utterly delusional. The very contrary might be true: the longer the war goes on, the more territory they will lose. It's high time to face the reality and realize that "territory for peace" is the only way to put an end to the war and the sooner the peace talks begin, the better for all parties, including third-parties.


As for escalation, Ukraine has just been allowed by the US to use US weaponry to strike inside Russian territory. This, while justified militarily, can be, and is, interpreted by Putin as direct US involvement in war. And inevitably such attacks will result in Russian civilian casualties. After a series of such attacks Putin might or might not retaliate, but is it worth risking WWIII for the sake of Ukraine's lost cause? Because, once again: short of direct NATO intervention Ukraine cannot win the war.

Quote from: Brian on June 25, 2024, 08:17:46 AMAnyone who thinks there are no swing voters left missed this piece of True Cinema...

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/5146BxCC6fL._AC_UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg)

Is this good movie?

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on June 25, 2024, 08:54:52 AMIs this good movie?

(No...I was being sarcastic.  ;) )

Quote from: Florestan on June 25, 2024, 08:45:08 AMFor all the money, armament and training Ukraine has been given in these two years, the results have been very modest so far. It is obvious that Ukraine cannot win the war. To believe, as Zelensky apparently does, that they will recover all lost territories, including Crimea, is utterly delusional. The very contrary might be true: the longer the war goes on, the more territory they will lose. It's high time to face the reality and realize that "territory for peace" is the only way to put an end to the war and the sooner the peace talks begin, the better for all parties, including third-parties.


As for escalation, Ukraine has just been allowed by the US to use US weaponry to strike inside Russian territory. This, while justified militarily, can be, and is, interpreted by Putin as direct US involvement in war. And inevitably such attacks will result in Russian civilian casualties. After a series of such attacks Putin might or might not retaliate, but is it worth risking WWIII for the sake of Ukraine's lost cause? Because, once again: short of direct NATO intervention Ukraine cannot win the war.

Opinion noted.

Quote from: Karl Henning on June 25, 2024, 09:16:11 AMOpinion noted.

Your Romanian friend does not quite understand where the policy of concessions to aggressors leads. After Ukraine, Putin will want and get Moldova and, of course, Romania - the Romanians will certainly not resist like the Ukranians and will hurry to capitulate, as they did in 1944.

It is worth remembering a little history. In 1938 Chamberlain returned from Munich with a signed peace with Hitler, in return for the territory of the Sudetes. Everyone knows what happened next.

Quote from: AnotherSpin on June 25, 2024, 10:33:29 AMYour Romanian friend does not quite understand where the policy of concessions to aggressors leads. After Ukraine, Putin will want and get Moldova and, of course, Romania - the Romanians will certainly not resist like the Ukranians and will hurry to capitulate, as they did in 1944.

Besides containing several errors, your post ignores the crucial fact that Romania is a member of NATO.

I will probably watch some videos by lefty YouTubers commenting on the debate after the fact.  ???

Quote from: DavidW on June 24, 2024, 01:29:00 PMYes, I hate being back in this place again of watching Biden and Trump debate, but here we are and it is important.

Biden - Trump 2024. The rematch nobody asked for...  ???

Quote from: 71 dB on June 25, 2024, 10:48:39 AMI will probably watch some videos by lefty YouTubers commenting on the debate after the fact.  ???

Biden - Trump 2024. The rematch nobody asked for...  ???

Not the election we need but the election we deserve.

Quote from: Karl Henning on June 25, 2024, 11:26:33 AMNot the election we need but the election we deserve.

I think you Americans deserve better than this, but if you feel this is what you folks deserve, the whole World is heavily affected by the US politics... so ...does the World deserve this?  ::)

Quote from: Karl Henning on June 24, 2024, 03:13:52 PMWon't watch it live.

Ditto. I work nights and will almost certainly be either in bed or preparing for my shift.

The highlights are bound to be on the Web shortly after the conclusion, I'll watch them at work.

Quote from: 71 dB on June 25, 2024, 11:36:01 AMI think you Americans deserve better than this, but if you feel this is what you folks deserve, the whole World is heavily affected by the US politics... so ...does the World deserve this?  ::)

No, but the world doesn't deserve Putin either.

Quote from: LKB on June 25, 2024, 12:25:14 PMNo, but the world doesn't deserve Putin either.

Can't disagree with that!

Quote from: LKB on June 25, 2024, 12:25:14 PMNo, but the world doesn't deserve Putin either.

Some Romanians are quite OK with Putin and don't mind him taking over other countries' territories ;)

Quote from: AnotherSpin on June 25, 2024, 08:17:21 PMSome Romanians are quite OK with Putin and don't mind him taking over other countries' territories ;)

Some Americans are as well, unfortunately.

Quote from: AnotherSpin on June 25, 2024, 08:17:21 PMSome Romanians are quite OK with Putin

Sure, but such people are to be found in every country around the world. I am not one of them, though.

Quoteand don't mind him taking over other countries' territories ;)

Speaking of which --- how about Ukraine giving back to Poland and Romania the territories which were forcibly taken from them by Stalin's Red Army and incorporated by fiat into the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic to which they had never before belonged? It would be a nice token of gratitude for all the costly humanitarian and military aid both countries have been offering Ukraine since the Russian invasion.

Definitely not. I would have if RFK had ben allowed to participate.

Quote from: Florestan on June 26, 2024, 12:27:02 AMSpeaking of which --- how about Ukraine giving back to Poland and Romania the territories which were forcibly taken from them by Stalin's Red Army and incorporated by fiat into the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic to which they had never before belonged? It would be a nice token of gratitude for all the costly humanitarian and military aid both countries have been offering Ukraine since the Russian invasion.

Do you truly believe that Ukraine should address such concerns at this time?

They are struggling daily against annihilation, and are hardly in any position to prioritize anything else.

No point in watching it. 

Quote from: LKB on June 26, 2024, 05:53:24 AMDo you truly believe that Ukraine should address such concerns at this time?

They are struggling daily against annihilation, and are hardly in any position to prioritize anything else.

Ask him about returning Erdély (Transylvania) to Hungary.

Quote from: LKB on June 26, 2024, 05:53:24 AMDo you truly believe that Ukraine should address such concerns at this time?

They are struggling daily against annihilation, and are hardly in any position to prioritize anything else.

Calm down, man. Neither Poland nor Romania have any claims upon those territories and both have been among the staunchest supporters of Ukraine. My real point was apparently lost on you but certainly not on the one whom it was directly addressed to.

Ah yes, the famous CLASSICAL MUSIC topic of American politics. Someone should ask the candidates whether Mahler 6 should be Andante-Scherzo or Scherzo-Andante or if applause between movements is acceptable...

Quote from: Maestro267 on June 26, 2024, 07:45:02 AMAh yes, the famous CLASSICAL MUSIC topic of American politics. Someone should ask the candidates whether Mahler 6 should be Andante-Scherzo or Scherzo-Andante or if applause between movements is acceptable...

That would make for a world premiere: both candidates simultaneously passing out live on stage because of stroke...  ;D

Quote from: Florestan on June 26, 2024, 09:02:07 AMThat would make for a world premiere: both candidates simultaneously passing out live on stage because of stroke...  ;D

Well the Mahler 6 is known for the hammer blows of fate!

Quote from: DavidW on June 26, 2024, 09:14:09 AMWell the Mahler 6 is known for the hammer blows of fate!

 ;D

From my whole heart, fuck'em both! And Putin as well while we're at it.  ;D

    I don't want to watch, though some of the debate might get through my defenses because the Other One will have it on.

    A WaPo article raised the issue that probably concerns a sizable chunk of the audience.

Trump's long fixation on mental fitness followed years of watching his father's worsening dementia — a formative period that some associates said has been a defining and little-mentioned factor in his life, and which left him with an abiding concern that he might someday inherit the condition. While much remains unknown about Alzheimer's, experts say there is an increased risk of inheriting a gene associated with the disease from a parent.

     Trump provided ample reason to suspect he was impaired throughout his term. This isn't a condition that gets better, but only worse all the way to the end.

Quote from: drogulus on June 26, 2024, 03:50:49 PMI don't want to watch, though some of the debate might get through my defenses because the Other One will have it on.

    A WaPo article raised the issue that probably concerns a sizable chunk of the audience.

Trump's long fixation on mental fitness followed years of watching his father's worsening dementia — a formative period that some associates said has been a defining and little-mentioned factor in his life, and which left him with an abiding concern that he might someday inherit the condition. While much remains unknown about Alzheimer's, experts say there is an increased risk of inheriting a gene associated with the disease from a parent.

    Trump provided ample reason to suspect he was impaired throughout his term. This isn't a condition that gets better, but only worse all the way to the end.

I would ask the candidates if they'd ever consider a preemptive strike on North Carolina ;) .

I'll be watching it tonight.

PD

Quote from: steve ridgway on June 26, 2024, 07:58:38 PMI would ask the candidates if they'd ever consider a preemptive strike on North Carolina ;) .

RIP Dave (SonicMan). :blank: First he gets mocked for listening to Angela Hewitt's Couperin, next he is being nuked!

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on June 27, 2024, 05:50:37 AMI'll be watching it tonight.

PD

    If it was only through the lens of politics I could watch the debate. What is disturbing is that because Trump lives all of his life in public he is trapped. He can't get help while running for office and fighting his legal battles.

Absolutely not, but if it erupts into a fist fight and Trump gets KTFO, then I'll watch the replay later.

Quote from: drogulus on June 27, 2024, 07:24:22 AMIf it was only through the lens of politics I could watch the debate. What is disturbing is that because Trump lives all of his life in public he is trapped. He can't get help while running for office and fighting his legal battles.

He can't get help because in his narcissism he never needs help. And I'm incapable of sympathy for a pathological narcissist who needs to burn America down to satisfy his ego.

Quote from: Karl Henning on June 27, 2024, 08:28:22 AMHe can't get help because in his narcissism he never needs help.

     He can never be seen to need help. That was my point about his public life.

     The fact that so much of his dilemma is his fault doesn't negate my concern for what isn't his fault. I guess you could chalk up my reaction to squeamishness as much as a kind of sympathy.

Quote from: drogulus on June 27, 2024, 08:51:00 AMI guess you could chalk up my reaction to squeamishness as much as a kind of sympathy.

Understood.

During the debate, I'll be watching Jaws. Really, for the electrocution angle, it should be Jaws 2. Heck, I may make it a double-feature.

Quote from: Karl Henning on June 27, 2024, 03:04:35 PMDuring the debate, I'll be watching Jaws. Really, for the electrocution angle, it should be Jaws 2. Heck, I may make it a double-feature.

I'm ready! Me and my friends are somewhat nervous!

Mic muting and no live audience. This may be disadvantageous to Trump.

Predictions are always fun, so here's mine:

The debate will finish early. Trump will suddenly pick up his ball and go home, probably during a commercial break.

*sigh*

I just saw Trump answer with unstructured issue-jumping free-association.

Followed by Biden mixing up trillions and billions and then millions and billions.

I can't watch any more. I'll get it secondhand.

Biden advisors should have worked on how he looks on camera....

Quote from: SimonNZ on June 27, 2024, 05:16:01 PM*sigh*

I just saw Trump answer with unstructured issue-jumping free-association.

Followed by Biden mixing up trillions and billions and then millions and billions.

I can't watch any more. I'll get it secondhand.

     Biden was never a good debater IMO. Being ancient I get mixing up illions.

Biden was frankly terrible.  I only got 40 minutes through it.  Trump had lie after lie, misdirections, failing to answer directly even when prompted.  It should have been easy for Biden to walk all over Trump.  But unfortunately Biden seemed to not pay attention, he seemed confused, he mumbled frequently, said things that made no sense.  It was a complete disaster for him.

Biden did get better as the debate went on, and got some good jabs in but... Trump won it. 

Quote from: DavidW on June 27, 2024, 08:13:07 PMBiden was frankly terrible.  I only got 40 minutes through it.  Trump had lie after lie, misdirections, failing to answer directly even when prompted.  It should have been easy for Biden to walk all over Trump.  But unfortunately Biden seemed to not pay attention, he seemed confused, he mumbled frequently, said things that made no sense.  It was a complete disaster for him.

Biden did get better as the debate went on, and got some good jabs in but... Trump won it. 

Pretty much my understanding as well, though I've only seen one account this far. Unfortunate, but it doesn't change the the nature of the stark choice before American voters:

Elderly but honorable proven President who stumbles at times, or...

Convicted felon, serial liar, misogynist and former Idiot-in-Chief.

Decisions, decisions...  ::)

CNN, BBC and the international press are all in agreement: Biden was a disaster and his state could get even worse by September, when the next round is scheduled.

Looks like the Democrats' fixation on Biden is suicidal.

At one point, Ms Bash had to point to Mr Tapper for the sitting President of the United States, the very angry and confused old man purportedly in charge of the US nuclear arsenal, so that the senile old man knew which direction to look before mumbling and fumbling the words piped through his earpiece.  On the plus side, the episode demonstrated that elder abuse can be funny. 

How did Joseph Robinette Biden, Jr do, according to CNN itself?  Well, Biden's disastrous debate pitches his reelection bid into crisis (https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/28/politics/biden-trump-presidential-debate-analysis/index.html)

Quote from: Florestan on June 28, 2024, 04:07:17 AMLooks like the Democrats' fixation on Biden is suicidal.

Quoted for truth.  If Biden is like that during a crisis, it would not be good at all.

Hard watch of 'highlights' on our TV news. Really sad and borderline cruelty, Biden should get out of there put his feet up and enjoy the time he has left. 

Quote from: DavidW on June 28, 2024, 06:12:27 AMQuoted for truth.  If Biden is like that during a crisis, it would not be good at all.

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on one's outlook, Jake Sullivan is the person really running the Executive Branch right now. 

Quote from: Todd on June 28, 2024, 07:13:49 AMFortunately or unfortunately, depending on one's outlook, Jake Sullivan is the person really running the Executive Branch right now. 

I'm starting to miss the ban on U.S. politics, which doesn't seem to be in force at the moment (since we are no long discussing whether or not we will watch).

FWIW, at least Biden is listening to sensible, experienced people. The former guy discovered that all of the sensible staff in his administration were an obstacle to getting one he wanted, and he intends to have an all-wacko staff going forward.

Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 28, 2024, 08:29:31 AMFWIW, at least Biden is listening to sensible, experienced people.

Biden's dangerous foreign policy directly and conclusively contradicts this assertion.

The debate is over, those who would or could watch it, did so, and those who wouldn't or couldn't, did not. End of story.

Time to close this thread.