I have heard so many performances of this wonderful work that I long ago lost count. As I write this I'm listening on YT to the Vienna Philharmonic playing the symphony from a 2019 concert in the Musikverein. This work is very highly strung, taut, dramatic and also lushly romantic; the ending always leaves me in a heap on the floor.
I'd like people to share their very best performances of this work and, if possible, provide a link. After 60 years I've never grown tired of this work. The mental image of Brahms sitting up there on the Balkon Loge in the Musikverein just a couple of weeks before he succumbed to liver cancer in April, 1897 always creates emotion, the more so since I have attended the Musikverein myself many many times and never heard a Brahms symphony performed.
I don't know of a definitive version of the Brahms #1. With the #4 it's Kleiber but the First Symphony remains elusive.
Quote from: Belle on May 01, 2026, 09:51:32 PMI don't know of a definitive version of the Brahms #1. With the #4 it's Kleiber but the First Symphony remains elusive.
There's no definitive recording of any Brahms symphony. Assuming you refer to Carlos Kleiber's Vienna recording rather than his Bavarian State Orchestra recording, it's hardly definitive.
There is no definitive recording of any music which is meant to be performed by human beings.
Quote from: Todd on May 02, 2026, 04:38:45 AMThere's no definitive recording of any Brahms symphony. Assuming you refer to Carlos Kleiber's Vienna recording rather than his Bavarian State Orchestra recording, it's hardly definitive.
I think there is a 'reference' or 'definitive' version, almost unanimously accepted by critics - and Kleiber's CD with the Vienna Philharmonic of the Brahms #4 is one of these. The recorded sound isn't very good, hitting a 'ceiling' in terms of depth and perspective (which is mostly pretty dry) but this was in the early days of CDs. Nevertheless Kleiber's incandescent reading of it just jumps right out at you. I've haven't had that experience with any performance of the Brahms #1. And there can, of course, we more than one red hot version.
Quote from: Belle on May 02, 2026, 02:52:20 PMI think there is a 'reference' or 'definitive' version, almost unanimously accepted by critics - and Kleiber's CD with the Vienna Philharmonic of the Brahms #4 is one of these. The recorded sound isn't very good, hitting a 'ceiling' in terms of depth and perspective (which is mostly pretty dry) but this was in the early days of CDs. Nevertheless Kleiber's incandescent reading of it just jumps right out at you. I've haven't had that experience with any performance of the Brahms #1. And there can, of course, we more than one red hot version.
I agree with you that Kleiber is my preference, but I don't know if I'll be of help as I don't think the First is a very successful symphony or one to my liking. I do think it is more successful when played more quickly. This reduces the risk that a performance will sound pretentious, pompous, or overblown. (The symphony tends to pompousness. Pomposity?)
I was recently very impressed by Gardner on Chandos but doubt that is anything like a "reference." My taste also inclines me to Bruno Walter, Mackerras, and the unusual reading by Ivan Fischer in Budapest.
If there is a critical reference for this symphony it seems to be Klemperer but I don't know that recording well.
My usual gotos for the symphonies are Klemperer, Walter (stereo), Sanderling/Dresden, Jochum/LPO (stereo), Levine/Chicago (I'm not familiar with Levine/Vienna). I would supplement with some "historical" recordings like Walter/New York (mono) and Furtwangler/Hamburg. And also sample recordings with reduced forces like Mackerras or Dausgaard.
[Fixed the link to go to Symphony No. 1]
Quote from: Belle on May 02, 2026, 02:52:20 PMI think there is a 'reference' or 'definitive' version, almost unanimously accepted by critics - and Kleiber's CD with the Vienna Philharmonic of the Brahms #4 is one of these.
First, it's not almost unanimously accepted by critics now. It was very popular with critics decades ago. Second, critics don't matter. It is helpful to know that you place great stock in what critics write and say.
My favorite recording of the
Brahms First Symphony is the
First Symphony of
Hans Rott! :D
But seriously... ;)
or...
And for the
Symphony #4or...
Serge Koussevitzky and the Boston Symphony Orchestra
Quote from: Brian on May 02, 2026, 03:06:57 PMI agree with you that Kleiber is my preference, but I don't know if I'll be of help as I don't think the First is a very successful symphony or one to my liking. I do think it is more successful when played more quickly. This reduces the risk that a performance will sound pretentious, pompous, or overblown. (The symphony tends to pompousness. Pomposity?)
I was recently very impressed by Gardner on Chandos but doubt that is anything like a "reference." My taste also inclines me to Bruno Walter, Mackerras, and the unusual reading by Ivan Fischer in Budapest.
If there is a critical reference for this symphony it seems to be Klemperer but I don't know that recording well.
Great comments, thanks.
Quote from: Todd on May 02, 2026, 03:35:13 PMFirst, it's not almost unanimously accepted by critics now. It was very popular with critics decades ago. Second, critics don't matter. It is helpful to know that you place great stock in what critics write and say.
Only in terms of certain performances but I note that when critics dislike something it's sure to garner attention. Same as Pauline Kael and her authoritative film critiques.
Quote from: Brian on May 02, 2026, 03:06:57 PMI agree with you that Kleiber is my preference, but I don't know if I'll be of help as I don't think the First is a very successful symphony or one to my liking. I do think it is more successful when played more quickly. This reduces the risk that a performance will sound pretentious, pompous, or overblown. (The symphony tends to pompousness. Pomposity?)
I was recently very impressed by Gardner on Chandos but doubt that is anything like a "reference." My taste also inclines me to Bruno Walter, Mackerras, and the unusual reading by Ivan Fischer in Budapest.
If there is a critical reference for this symphony it seems to be Klemperer but I don't know that recording well.
To the part I bolded--that sounds suspiciously like "the sooner we get through it, the better". >:D
I do have a reference recording for the First, but I have no idea of who the conductor or orchestra was because it's one I heard as a kid, and it imprinted on my brain. The only data point I can provide is that since I heard it as a kid, it must have been recorded before 1970.
That probably leaves a whole host of possibilities.
Karl Böhm, Wiener Philharmonic. This was the first performance that left an imprint on my memory many years ago. Since then I have heard many different versions, and many of them were interesting. I agree that there is no such thing as a definitive performance.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on May 02, 2026, 09:56:43 PMKarl Böhm, Wiener Philharmonic. This was the first performance that left an imprint on my memory many years ago. Since then I have heard many different versions, and many of them were interesting. I agree that there is no such thing as a definitive performance.
I'll see if I can find it on YT. Thanks for your comments. I have Karajan but I think it's a predictable and conservative reading, if I can put it like that.
Mengelberg 1943
Furtwanger 1951
Weingartner
Giulini Philharmonia
Quote from: Belle on May 02, 2026, 07:29:09 PMOnly in terms of certain performances but I note that when critics dislike something it's sure to garner attention.
Negative critical reviews garner attention only among people reliant on social signaling.
Quote from: Belle on May 02, 2026, 07:29:09 PMSame as Pauline Kael and her authoritative film critiques.
This response is excellently worded because it explicitly relies on an appeal to authority. Kael was not authoritative in any way. She was like every other movie critic. She has also been dead for decades. Her reviews mean less now than when they were published, and they meant nothing at the time except to the comparatively few people reliant upon social signaling to inform them about what was good. Citing Kael as some type of authority does make clear why the concept of a "definitive" recording was used.
Quote from: Todd on May 03, 2026, 03:47:29 AMNegative critical reviews garner attention only among people reliant on social signaling.
This response is excellently worded because it explicitly relies on an appeal to authority. Kael was not authoritative in any way. She was like every other movie critic. She has also been dead for decades. Her reviews mean less now than when they were published, and they meant nothing at the time except to the comparatively few people reliant upon social signaling to inform them about what was good. Citing Kael as some type of authority does make clear why the concept of a "definitive" recording was used.
Pauline Kael still features in most undergraduate film courses at university; she was a leader in her field and extremely influential. 'Social signalling' and other such pretentious under-graduate jibberish and completely unoriginal - and I won't respond to that. Just to say that no less a person than Robert Schumann made a career out of being a music critic. In fact, he had his own publication Neue Zeitschrift fur Musik.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 03, 2026, 12:46:48 AMMengelberg 1943
Furtwanger 1951
Weingartner
Giulini Philharmonia
Thanks for these tips; I'll check out YT. I've found the 1943 Mengelberg and am listening as I write this. Wow, that dramatic opening with the timpani; that's what I'm talking about - drama in spades, followed by contrast and highlighting of polyphonic complexity. Now we're gettin' warm (Louis Armstrong, "High Society").
Quote from: Belle on May 03, 2026, 04:48:57 AMPauline Kael still features in most undergraduate film courses at university
That doesn't mean what you think it means.
Quote from: Belle on May 03, 2026, 04:48:57 AM'Social signalling' and other such jibberish is a left wing egalitarian word-salad, completely unoriginal - and I won't respond to that.
LOL. "Left-wing egalitarian" is a whiff of a rejoinder. Also, you responded to it.
Your posts are all time period and institution bounded, and very much demonstrate that you align with perceived tastemakers of some purported repute. That's something to do.
Quote from: Belle on May 03, 2026, 04:48:57 AMPauline Kael still features in most undergraduate film courses at university; she was a leader in her field and extremely influential. 'Social signalling' and other such pretentious under-graduate jibberish and completely unoriginal - and I won't respond to that. Just to say that no less a person than Robert Schumann made a career out of being a music critic. In fact, he had his own publication Neue Zeitschrift fur Musik.
You cannot win this conversation, even by invoking Schumann, so I suggest you stop trying.
As for Brahms' 1st symphony, I have and like Chailly's recording.
Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2026, 06:39:51 AMYou cannot win this conversation, even by invoking Schumann, so I suggest you stop trying.
Schumann is not remembered because he was a critic.
When I'm in the mood for a Brahms symphony, what I rarely am, I turn to (in casual order):
Klemperer, Walter (Stereo), Boult (Mono) and van Beinum.
I'm sure my fellow longtime GMG regulars are equally amused that Todd has been called left-wing ;D
Quote from: Todd on May 03, 2026, 06:55:16 AMSchumann is not remembered because he was a critic.
And yet here we are in a thread where someone remembered that he was.
Anyway I have no intention of discussing critics with you. My comment wasn't addressed TO you. It was addressed to the person who was trying to discuss critics with you.
Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2026, 07:48:50 AMAnd yet here we are in a thread where someone remembered that he was.
Self-styled cultural elites often mention immaterial factoids. Berlioz would have been a better rhetorical choice.
Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2026, 07:48:50 AMMy comment wasn't addressed TO you.
So?
Quote from: Todd on May 03, 2026, 06:55:16 AMSchumann is not remembered because he was a critic.
He is in part, as for example his early advocacy of Schubert, Chopin, and Brahms.
Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2026, 07:48:50 AMAnd yet here we are in a thread where someone remembered that he was.
Anyway I have no intention of discussing critics with you. My comment wasn't addressed TO you. It was addressed to the person who was trying to discuss critics with you.
Public forum. Anyone can jump in.
Quote from: Brian on May 03, 2026, 07:38:18 AMI'm sure my fellow longtime GMG regulars are equally amused that Todd has been called left-wing ;D
Yes, that's not right.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2026, 08:01:44 AMHe is in part, as for example his early advocacy of Schubert, Chopin, and Brahms.
He is in part for a small niche within the already niche classical music world. Were he not a great composer, his professional criticism would not be quite so noteworthy.
Quote from: Brian on May 03, 2026, 07:38:18 AMI'm sure my fellow longtime GMG regulars are equally amused that Todd has been called left-wing ;D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
Brahms is so familiar to me that when I listen to his symphonies I usually go for something I have not heard before, and something which is off the beaten path. Thinking of recent favorites, Barbirolli/WPO, Kertesz/WPO, Ansermet/OSR, Fischer/Budapest. Seems like I haven't listened to a Brahms Symphony since 2024
Quote from: Belle on May 03, 2026, 04:51:03 AMThanks for these tips; I'll check out YT. I've found the 1943 Mengelberg and am listening as I write this. Wow, that dramatic opening with the timpani; that's what I'm talking about - drama in spades, followed by contrast and highlighting of polyphonic complexity. Now we're gettin' warm (Louis Armstrong, "High Society").
I'd not heard it for years to be honest, and after making that list I listened to the again - not the 1943 in fact, but the 1940. It's astonishing, wild. Thanks for reminding me about Brahms!
@Spotted Horses - just listen to the Mengelberg and genuflect.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 03, 2026, 08:34:50 AMhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
That theory is only potentially useful when assessing application of state power. Also, it veers into politics too much, or would, if anyone took it seriously today.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 03, 2026, 08:37:14 AMI'd not heard it for years to be honest, and after making that list I listened to the again - not the 1943 in fact, but the 1940. It's astonishing, wild. Thanks for reminding me about Brahms! @Spotted Horses - just listen to the Mengelberg and genuflect.
I think I've endured too many anodyne performances of the Brahms #1 in the past, ergo this thread. Those historic performances are often very enlightening, whilst our modern ones can often be the opposite - outstanding though some of the playing undoubtedly is!!
Quote from: Daverz on May 02, 2026, 03:19:02 PMMy usual gotos for the symphonies are Klemperer, Walter (stereo), Sanderling/Dresden, Jochum/LPO (stereo), Levine/Chicago (I'm not familiar with Levine/Vienna). I would supplement with some "historical" recordings like Walter/New York (mono) and Furtwangler/Hamburg. And also sample recordings with reduced forces like Mackerras or Dausgaard.
[Fixed the link to go to Symphony No. 1]
I generally find Klemperer's versions (of anything) too leaden and way too slow, but thanks for posting this.
I agree with those who state critics aren't as important as first personal evaluations.
Comparing your conclusions to others is far more intellectual than deriving your ideas from others, that's like sheep mentality.
Quote from: Belle on May 03, 2026, 02:26:39 PMI generally find Klemperer's versions (of anything) too leaden and way too slow, but thanks for posting this.
Is this Klemperer recording of the Brahms Symphony No. 1 too leaden and slow?
I finally had a chance to listen to the Levine/Vienna recording, and it's a real banger of a performance in the Toscanini mold, but with much better sonics. I have not had a chance to compare it to the Chicago recording.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2026, 08:03:01 AMPublic forum. Anyone can jump in.
Certainly they can. I'm just indicating that I wouldn't engage further with him on the topic of critics, when the whole point of my original comment was that engaging with him on that would be fruitless.
Quote from: nakulanb on May 03, 2026, 02:44:52 PMI agree with those who state critics aren't as important as first personal evaluations.
Comparing your conclusions to others is far more intellectual than deriving your ideas from others, that's like sheep mentality.
Reviews exist to save time.
It really is as simple as that. Whether those reviews come from professional critics, or just from your acquaintance, the whole purpose is to deal with the fact that nobody has time to watch every film, read every book or listen to every recording.
I kind of find it weird how many people don't seem to understand that. Of course your own opinion is more important, but forming your opinion takes hours. The opinions of others are a shortcut. If you've got time to form your own opinion of 57 recordings, knock yourself out. I'd rather find an efficient way to whittle that down to 2 or 3 of particular interest and then still have time to do something else, including listening to the NEXT piece of music.
Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2026, 03:07:08 PMReviews exist to save time.
It really is as simple as that. Whether those reviews come from professional critics, or just from your acquaintance, the whole purpose is to deal with the fact that nobody has time to watch every film, read every book or listen to every recording.
I kind of find it weird how many people don't seem to understand that. Of course your own opinion is more important, but forming your opinion takes hours. The opinions of others are a shortcut. If you've got time to form your own opinion of 57 recordings, knock yourself out. I'd rather find an efficient way to whittle that down to 2 or 3 of particular interest and then still have time to do something else, including listening to the NEXT piece of music.
There's nothing wrong with suggestions, it's only problematic if you accept the review at the cost of divergent thoughts, for whatever motivation.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 03, 2026, 08:34:50 AMhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
That's a useful model.
Quote from: nakulanb on May 03, 2026, 03:15:31 PMThere's nothing wrong with suggestions, it's only problematic if you accept the review at the cost of divergent thoughts, for whatever motivation.
It's pretty rare to meet anyone who, once actually experiencing stuff for themselves, doesn't express their own opinion on it rather than the opinion of the reviewer.
The bigger problem in my view is that some people falsely reason that if your opinion is the SAME as the reviewer's opinion, it can't be your own. Which is nonsense. Some people are so obsessed with the notion of independent thought that they reject the possibility that a lot of people can find the same thing good or bad.
Years ago I met a guy who would stop listening to any band that he liked as soon as it became popular. That's divergent thought for the sake of it.
Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2026, 03:01:44 PMCertainly they can. I'm just indicating that I wouldn't engage further with him on the topic of critics, when the whole point of my original comment was that engaging with him on that would be fruitless.
And that's true too.
Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2026, 03:46:13 PMIt's pretty rare to meet anyone who, once actually experiencing stuff for themselves, doesn't express their own opinion on it rather than the opinion of the reviewer.
The bigger problem in my view is that some people falsely reason that if your opinion is the SAME as the reviewer's opinion, it can't be your own. Which is nonsense. Some people are so obsessed with the notion of independent thought that they reject the possibility that a lot of people can find the same thing good or bad.
Years ago I met a guy who would stop listening to any band that he liked as soon as it became popular. That's divergent thought for the sake of it.
It's been my observation that many folks in mainstream culture, at least, cave to groupthink.
Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2026, 03:46:13 PMIt's pretty rare to meet anyone who, once actually experiencing stuff for themselves, doesn't express their own opinion on it rather than the opinion of the reviewer.
The bigger problem in my view is that some people falsely reason that if your opinion is the SAME as the reviewer's opinion, it can't be your own. Which is nonsense. Some people are so obsessed with the notion of independent thought that they reject the possibility that a lot of people can find the same thing good or bad.
Years ago I met a guy who would stop listening to any band that he liked as soon as it became popular. That's divergent thought for the sake of it.
It's unlikely to share all the same bullet points of artistic evaluation.
Quote from: nakulanb on May 03, 2026, 02:44:52 PMI agree with those who state critics aren't as important as first personal evaluations.
Comparing your conclusions to others is far more intellectual than deriving your ideas from others, that's like sheep mentality.
Authoritative critics can teach us all what to look or listen for. Most 'first personal evaluations' go something like this: "I didn't like it; it sucked". Good criticism can provide us with the necessary tools to evaluate and to take it from there!! Why else would "Literary Criticism" be included in an English degree?
Quote from: DrakeBala513 on May 03, 2026, 05:17:55 PMIt's been my observation that many folks in mainstream culture, at least, cave to groupthink.
Well you are pretty much making my point for me by referencing "mainstream" culture. A lot of people in the "mainstream"... have similar opinions?
Did you truly think about what the word "mainstream" MEANS before writing that? What's next, observing that over 50% of people vote the same way as the majority?
While art is never wholly objective, I find the opposite proposition that it's wholly subjective to fly in the face of all the evidence that reactions and opinions tend to clump. Attributing that to "groupthink" is just an attempt to deny that things like bell curves tend to exist.
Today I was at the dentist and had a long appointment, so I continued reading my Max Steiner biography. I came across the passage where Max was explaining his rationale for writing in a particular way his score for "They Died With Their Boots On" - the story of General Custer - in 1941. Max observed that really intelligent people listen to film music and the same audience contains those who aren't intelligent. He commented that there had to be something more for the former group to listen to after the film was finished. An excellent example of critical analysis of what it takes to appeal to mass audiences.
Quote from: Daverz on May 03, 2026, 02:45:53 PMIs this Klemperer recording of the Brahms Symphony No. 1 too leaden and slow?
I finally had a chance to listen to the Levine/Vienna recording, and it's a real banger of a performance in the Toscanini mold, but with much better sonics. I have not had a chance to compare it to the Chicago recording.
I couldn't find the name of the orchestra that Klemperer was conducting for the Brahms #1. It is a tad slow for me, I have to say. Klemperer confused slow tempi with magisterial outcomes,
in my opinion. I have his Deutsches Requiem and I'm afraid I just can't listen to it anymore. Though it is a requiem I don't think it needs to lead to torpor with ultra dense textures, resulting in pomposity. One can appeal to the worst excesses of Brahms by taking this approach, IMO.
My favorite version of this symphony is Barenboim on Erato:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51x2WbfJSuL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
Quote from: Belle on May 03, 2026, 02:25:33 PMI think I've endured too many anodyne performances of the Brahms #1 in the past, ergo this thread. Those historic performances are often very enlightening, whilst our modern ones can often be the opposite - outstanding though some of the playing undoubtedly is!!
A good recent histrionic one is Adam Fischer /Danish
For a very satisfying and totally non-histrionic one, try Barbirolli with the VPO.
Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2026, 03:07:08 PMReviews exist to save time.
Critics exist on the assumption that very few recordings are worth your time. Taking critics seriously you run the risk of missing valuable recordings that critics don't like. It also ignores the fact that most recordings, despite their flaws, large or small, contain something valuable. So rather than owning one or two critically acclaimed recordings which I listen to over and over again of the same work, I prefer to own and listen to many different recordings which allow me to see (and hear) the work in question from many different angles.
Quote from: prémont on May 04, 2026, 01:09:58 AMCritics exist on the assumption that very few recordings are worth your time. Taking critics seriously you run the risk of missing valuable recordings that critics don't like. It also ignores the fact that most recordings, despite their flaws, large or small, contain something valuable. So rather than owning one or two critically acclaimed recordings which I listen to over and over again of the same work, I prefer to own and listen to many different recordings which allow me to see (and hear) the work in question from many different angles.
Great. And exactly what percentage of your waking day do you devote to listening to music?
Presto Classical has 553 listings for releases in the past month. Admittedly, a proportion of those will be reissues but I've no idea what the proportion is.
Classical is of course only a small percentage of the music market.
The assumption is not that very few recordings are worth your time. The assumption is that the available supply far exceeds that time.
If you devote large amounts of time to the project AND your focus is incredibly specific, that assumption might not hold. But as I said earlier, one of the reasons that I don't wish to listen to 57 different available recordings of a work is so that I have time to listen to other works, and I only have so much of my day to listen to music. I also have a curated queue of TV shows to watch, and movies I'm interested in. And I battle my podcast queue like you wouldn't believe.
Also, I have a job. Where I do listen to music, but most often I do the popular music stuff there.
I continue to find it fascinating how critics get this kind of response, yet amateur listeners don't. People here are regularly giving recommendations or asking for them (like this very thread), and in general I've yet to see responses along the line of "giving recommendations is based on an assumption that very few recordings are worth your time". You yourself listed just 4 recordings of the Brahms 1st. I would have assumed that was on the basis that you found those recordings more worthwhile than the myriad others. Maybe that doesn't mean you think the others are NOT worthwhile, but it does mean that, with limited time and in your case a more limited appetite for Brahms, these are the recordings you go to rather than making a random selection or deciding you must listen to every recording ever released.
Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2026, 08:48:18 PMWell you are pretty much making my point for me by referencing "mainstream" culture. A lot of people in the "mainstream"... have similar opinions?
Did you truly think about what the word "mainstream" MEANS before writing that? What's next, observing that over 50% of people vote the same way as the majority?
While art is never wholly objective, I find the opposite proposition that it's wholly subjective to fly in the face of all the evidence that reactions and opinions tend to clump. Attributing that to "groupthink" is just an attempt to deny that things like bell curves tend to exist.
I'm unsure of the point you are trying to make here.
It's wiser to just dive in and explore recordings blindly and develop your own opinions.
No one says you have to listen to any specific number of interpretations.
Getting suggestions is ok.
Quote from: Philo on May 03, 2026, 11:51:51 PMMy favorite version of this symphony is Barenboim on Erato:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51x2WbfJSuL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
Thank you, I'll check it out.
Quote from: Madiel on May 04, 2026, 01:37:03 AMGreat. And exactly what percentage of your waking day do you devote to listening to music?
Presto Classical has 553 listings for releases in the past month. Admittedly, a proportion of those will be reissues but I've no idea what the proportion is.
Classical is of course only a small percentage of the music market.
The assumption is not that very few recordings are worth your time. The assumption is that the available supply far exceeds that time.
If you devote large amounts of time to the project AND your focus is incredibly specific, that assumption might not hold. But as I said earlier, one of the reasons that I don't wish to listen to 57 different available recordings of a work is so that I have time to listen to other works, and I only have so much of my day to listen to music. I also have a curated queue of TV shows to watch, and movies I'm interested in. And I battle my podcast queue like you wouldn't believe.
Also, I have a job. Where I do listen to music, but most often I do the popular music stuff there.
I continue to find it fascinating how critics get this kind of response, yet amateur listeners don't. People here are regularly giving recommendations or asking for them (like this very thread), and in general I've yet to see responses along the line of "giving recommendations is based on an assumption that very few recordings are worth your time". You yourself listed just 4 recordings of the Brahms 1st. I would have assumed that was on the basis that you found those recordings more worthwhile than the myriad others. Maybe that doesn't mean you think the others are NOT worthwhile, but it does mean that, with limited time and in your case a more limited appetite for Brahms, these are the recordings you go to rather than making a random selection or deciding you must listen to every recording ever released.
Professional critics have a greater responsibility to make solid and more objective recommendations than amateurs who have only heard a few recordings and only mention a few recordings that they like. But in actually professional critics are no different. They are largely guided by their subjective taste and have often only heard relatively few different recordings of the works they are discussing. Some of them admit this in their reviews. But many of them appear far too authoritarian in relation to their amount of listening. You can't be omniscient in all areas, but that's how they want to appear. But the truth is that a large number of recordings of every work are worthy of recommendation. That's why I think professional reviewers simplify things.
I limit myself to listening to as much as possible of everything within a relatively few musical genres that particularly interest me. This is of course due to the time factor, but then I also get a more thorough knowledge in these areas. As you know, I am particularly interested in early music, to which I count the Baroque. I have not been particularly interested in Brahms, and the four recordings I mentioned are just four recordings that are to my taste, and I'm not claiming that there are no others that could be just as good - or better. Just like when it's about the critics, taste is a pivotal factor.
Quote from: DrakeBala513 on May 04, 2026, 02:02:33 AMI'm unsure of the point you are trying to make here.
That by definition, people in the mainstream have the same views as a lot of other people. If they didn't think the same as other people in the mainstream... they wouldn't be in the mainstream.
Groupthink is what happens in cults.
Quote from: prémont on May 04, 2026, 03:08:50 AMProfessional critics have a greater responsibility to make solid and more objective recommendations than amateurs who have only heard a few recordings and only mention a few recordings that they like. But in actually professional critics are no different. They are largely guided by their subjective taste and have often only heard relatively few different recordings of the works they are discussing. Some of them admit this in their reviews. But many of them appear far too authoritarian in relation to their amount of listening. You can't be omniscient in all areas, but that's how they want to appear. But the truth is that a large number of recordings of every work are worthy of recommendation. That's why I think professional reviewers simplify things.
I limit myself to listening to as much as possible of everything within a relatively few musical genres that particularly interest me. This is of course due to the time factor, but then I also get a more thorough knowledge in these areas. As you know, I am particularly interested in early music, to which I count the Baroque. I have not been particularly interested in Brahms, and the four recordings I mentioned are just four recordings that are to my taste, and I'm not claiming that there are no others that could be just as good - or better. Just like when it's about the critics, taste is a pivotal factor.
Critics are different, precisely because they (1) spend more time, and (2) are not just catering for you personally and your particular interests. Of course you can know more than a critic about the particular sub-sub-niche that you care about the most. But they know more than you about all the other things you're not interested in and don't care about much.
I am so tired of having the exact same conversations on this forum's particular variation of the modern rejection of expertise. So I'm done here.
Quote from: Madiel on May 04, 2026, 03:17:40 AMCritics are different, precisely because they (1) spend more time, and (2) are not just catering for you personally and your particular interests. Of course you can know more than a critic about the particular sub-sub-niche that you care about the most. But they know more than you about all the other things you're not interested in and don't care about much.
You nicely sum up the reasons why I don't listen to critics much.
They ought to specialize more, making them able to give more informed advises.
Quote from: Belle on May 03, 2026, 11:48:39 PMKlemperer confused slow tempi with magisterial outcomes, in my opinion.
I don't think this holds true. Klemperer was just victim of the almost general tendency to slow things down with advancing age. His earlier recordings are equally magisterial but a bit faster.
Quote from: Madiel on May 04, 2026, 03:16:16 AMThat by definition, people in the mainstream have the same views as a lot of other people. If they didn't think the same as other people in the mainstream... they wouldn't be in the mainstream.
Groupthink is what happens in cults.
I agree there.
To be clear: a major part of the reason I said I'm done here is because this thread is supposed to be about Brahms' 1st symphony, not the recurring GMG position of rejecting reviews as having no value. There's been quite a bit of derailing.
I haven't listened to the 1st for quite a long time actually. I might give my one and only recording (not universally beloved by either professional reviewers or amateur ones, but it works for me) a spin sometime soon.
Quote from: prémont on May 04, 2026, 03:52:26 AMI don't think this holds true. Klemperer was just victim of the almost general tendency to slow things down with advancing age. His earlier recordings are equally magisterial but a bit faster.
OK, that's a valid point.
Quote from: Madiel on May 04, 2026, 04:51:48 AMTo be clear: a major part of the reason I said I'm done here is because this thread is supposed to be about Brahms' 1st symphony, not the recurring GMG position of rejecting reviews as having no value. There's been quite a bit of derailing.
I haven't listened to the 1st for quite a long time actually. I might give my one and only recording (not universally beloved by either professional reviewers or amateur ones, but it works for me) a spin sometime soon.
As I've said, critiques and reviews have their uses. Most definitely. I've agreed with negative ones over my lifetime as well as positive ones - in books, music and film. But they've definitely provided me the tools to write my own which I have done on many occasions regarding film, especially 'vintage' film. Meanwhile, I'm still listening out for that Brahms #1 which has 'that little something extra' ("A Star is Born").
Quote from: Belle on May 04, 2026, 02:55:33 AMThank you, I'll check it out.
These are 3 others that I love: Walter, Barenboim, and Yannick
(https://i.discogs.com/BviJBh5C_N2xPjPxj-yWSSpKfIPurAuxsJboXAtwoJg/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:602/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTIzNjA2/NDIwLTE3MTM3MTQ2/NTktNTIwOC5qcGVn.jpeg)(https://music-reviews.markallengroup.com/gramophone/media-thumbnails/brahms_symphs.jpg)(https://prodimage.images-bn.com/pimages/0028948660001_p0_v1_s600x595.jpg)
Here's something extraordinary
Quote from: Belle on May 02, 2026, 11:46:12 PMI'll see if I can find it on YT. Thanks for your comments. I have Karajan but I think it's a predictable and conservative reading, if I can put it like that.
Testament released a 1988 London concert with Karajan and the BPO, I think it's exceptional.
If any criticism is just as valid as any other, then I am fully justified in never again listening to Brahms' 1st after the first audition. It bores the hell out of me. The very definition of "Teutonic pretense to profundity ".
Quote from: Florestan on May 04, 2026, 08:24:14 AMIf any criticism is just as valid as any other, then I am fully justified in never again listening to Brahms' 1st after the first audition. It bores the hell out of me. The very definition of "Teutonic pretense to profundity ".
A couple dozen more listens should change your mind...
There's plenty of carefree and appealing Brahms like the Serenades and the String Quintets, so no reason to keep bouncing off what I think of as one of Brahms's "try hard" works (I'd also put the String Quartets in that category, though I don't dislike them).
Quote from: Florestan on May 04, 2026, 08:24:14 AMIf any criticism is just as valid as any other, then I am fully justified in never again listening to Brahms' 1st after the first audition. It bores the hell out of me. The very definition of "Teutonic pretense to profundity ".
I disagree actually - I think the first movement coda is one of the most profound moments in instrumental music.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 04, 2026, 07:56:48 AMTestament released a 1988 London concert with Karajan and the BPO, I think it's exceptional.
Okay, you obviously know much more about the recorded repertoire than I!! Grateful for your thoughts.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 04, 2026, 01:20:00 PMI disagree actually - I think the first movement coda is one of the most profound moments in instrumental music.
It was the writer James Ellroy who accused Brahms of being 'an impotent' and, of course, it's impossible for anybody to make that comment from both a physical and aesthetic standpoint. The writer (as a serious drunk this could even be his very own projection!) is obviously bigoted about Brahms and his foray into physiognomy is the action of an irrational. The last movement of the Symphony #1 has that 'climax' element that one finds in the human interaction so we can draw whatever inferences or suppositions we may from that. But that's all they'd be.
Quote from: Florestan on May 04, 2026, 08:24:14 AMIf any criticism is just as valid as any other, then I am fully justified in never again listening to Brahms' 1st after the first audition. It bores the hell out of me. The very definition of "Teutonic pretense to profundity ".
I don't think this so-called 'pretense to profundity is restricted to Brahms. For me Elgar's music has that quality to a detrimental extent, particularly the symphonies and other bloated choral works. And, of course, Bruckner. For him bigger was always better and I have to disagree. In fact, Brahms was very compact in his symphonic thinking; he wasted no thematic motifs and materials and didn't digress into long forays of self-indulgence like the 'other' school which was in the ascendant during Brahms's lifetime and which caused that well-known rift. I was always in the corner of Dr. Brahms and his classical models. He poured new wine into old bottles, as the old saw has it.
Different strokes for different folks.
I don't really have a "go to" version of the piece, though many of the ones mentioned here sound appealing. I grew up with the Bruno Walter Fourth, so his version of No. 1 is a contender. For more modern takes, I did like Chailly's cycle with the Concertgebouw in the late 1980s, when he was pairing Brahms and Schoenberg, both on concerts and recordings.
Quote from: Belle on May 04, 2026, 02:05:24 PMIt was the writer James Ellroy
The
L.A. Confidential guy wrote about Brahms?
Quote from: Daverz on May 04, 2026, 02:38:07 PMThe L.A. Confidential guy wrote about Brahms?
Yes. I'm sure it will be on the net somewhere. I'm uncertain if it was an original idea by Ellroy or whether he was picking up on something from an essay by Arnold Schönberg. Ellroy was no musicologist, it has to be said.
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/84/25/0884977552584_600.jpg)
Yesterday I listened to several performances of Brahms's First Symphony. Archival recordings by Furtwängler, Klemperer, and Weingartner were all fascinating in their own ways. I also discovered Levine's Chicago Symphony recording, which was new to me and left a strong impression.
Quote from: Daverz on May 04, 2026, 12:04:58 PMA couple dozen more listens should change your mind...
There's plenty of carefree and appealing Brahms like the Serenades and the String Quintets, so no reason to keep bouncing off what I think of as one of Brahms's "try hard" works (I'd also put the String Quartets in that category, though I don't dislike them).
Oh, I do like lots of his works. It's just S1 that I find boring and pretentious and I've never found a version which changed my mind.
Quote from: Belle on May 04, 2026, 02:05:24 PMIt was the writer James Ellroy who accused Brahms of being 'an impotent'
Actually, the first to level such an accusation at Brahms was Nietzsche, who called his music "the melancholy of impotence". Nonsense, of course, like so many of Nietzsche's pronouncements.
Quote from: Florestan on May 05, 2026, 12:57:57 AMActually, the first to level such an accusation at Brahms was Nietzsche, who called his music "the melancholy of impotence". Nonsense, of course, like so many of Nietzsche's pronouncements.
Well, you've nailed it!! I knew it wasn't an original comment by Ellroy, who was stupid to have brought it up (as it were).
Quote from: Florestan on May 05, 2026, 12:53:54 AMOh, I do like lots of his works. It's just S1 that I find boring and pretentious and I've never found a version which changed my mind.
Fair enough!! I'm not fond of the Serenades which, I feel, are anything but romantic and soothing!!
Quote from: Mandryka on May 04, 2026, 07:39:38 AMHere's something extraordinary
I've just listened to the 1951 version from Furtwangler and it's STUNNING. I couldn't help hearing those timpani 'heartbeats' at the start as a paean to grief and despair in post-war Germany and Austria!! Furtwangler was one heck of a conductor. The last movement of the 1951 recording is WHITE HOT. I agree with you that the 1945 version is also extraordinary. That's what I've been driving towards with this thread.
Years ago I ran a music appreciation group for the retirement community in our city. A fellow there - a retired professor of mechanical engineering - was a hi-fi and music enthusiast (he's now deceased). I remember playing some historic recordings during my sessions and he turned up his nose, not being partial to the lack of stunning sound quality - as though that had anything at all to do with the performances themselves. We had to agree to disagree, otherwise he was a darling man.
Mainstream is a cult.
I found Dave Hurwitz talking about versions of Brahms #1.
Quote from: Belle on May 05, 2026, 05:10:38 PMI found Dave Hurwitz talking about versions of Brahms #1.
Thnx for sharing!
Quote from: Belle on May 05, 2026, 03:04:09 PMI've just listened to the 1951 version from Furtwangler and it's STUNNING. I couldn't help hearing those timpani 'heartbeats' at the start as a paean to grief and despair in post-war Germany and Austria!! Furtwangler was one heck of a conductor. The last movement of the 1951 recording is WHITE HOT. I agree with you that the 1945 version is also extraordinary. That's what I've been driving towards with this thread.
Years ago I ran a music appreciation group for the retirement community in our city. A fellow there - a retired professor of mechanical engineering - was a hi-fi and music enthusiast (he's now deceased). I remember playing some historic recordings during my sessions and he turned up his nose, not being partial to the lack of stunning sound quality - as though that had anything at all to do with the performances themselves. We had to agree to disagree, otherwise he was a darling man.
I'm listening now, quite spirited.
Quote from: Belle on May 05, 2026, 05:10:38 PMI found Dave Hurwitz talking about versions of Brahms #1.
Here's Gil Zilkha on Brahms 1:
Quote from: Belle on May 05, 2026, 03:04:09 PMI've just listened to the 1951 version from Furtwangler and it's STUNNING. I couldn't help hearing those timpani 'heartbeats' at the start as a paean to grief and despair in post-war Germany and Austria!! Furtwangler was one heck of a conductor. The last movement of the 1951 recording is WHITE HOT. I agree with you that the 1945 version is also extraordinary. That's what I've been driving towards with this thread.
Years ago I ran a music appreciation group for the retirement community in our city. A fellow there - a retired professor of mechanical engineering - was a hi-fi and music enthusiast (he's now deceased). I remember playing some historic recordings during my sessions and he turned up his nose, not being partial to the lack of stunning sound quality - as though that had anything at all to do with the performances themselves. We had to agree to disagree, otherwise he was a darling man.
I tend to agree with him. The sound simply makes it harder for the music to come across, however well it's performed.
I have the Harnoncourt on now, quite lush.
Now, Karajan. More of a pulse!
@Daverz, thanks for that clip on Zilkha's recommendations. I have the Karajan to which he referred and I'm not fussed about it.
Quote from: Belle on May 06, 2026, 01:58:01 AMOK, go on....
It really moves along quite nicely, approaching each mvt individually in the context of the whole.
Quote from: DrakeBala513 on May 06, 2026, 04:27:44 AMIt really moves along quite nicely, approaching each mvt individually in the context of the whole.
Thanks for your reply!!