I would like to explore the recordings by Jascha Horenstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jascha_Horenstein) some more.
(Another interesting link (http://www.classical.net/music/performer/horenstein/index.html))
I know very litlle recordings by him, but I can recommend his Bruckner 5th on BBC Legends, which is elegant and "light", though emotionally profound. REVIEW (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/june00/bruckner5horenstein.htm)
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/june00/horensteinBBC.jpg)
Any fans here that can recommend me some more sterling Horenstein? :)
Some Mahler?
Q
Not Mahler, but Rachmaninov - the Piano Concerti on Chandos with Earl Wild at the keyboard are absolutely superb. ;)
One of the things I most admire in Horenstein is the way he always gives a global perspective of the works he conducts. There is a logic in his style, that, as in the architecture, make us see each detail from the perspective of the global work. In this sense he was a conductor similar to Toscanini, Reiner or Klemperer (in spite of their differences in other aspects) and opposed to conductors like Bruno Walter, Bernstein or Beecham.
His version of Mahler's 3rd Symphony is an extreme example of this. I am not sure that Horenstein efforts to unify the work, in special the first movement, are the best approach, but it is fascinating, when we compare this version with those of Adler or Bernstein.
To be honest, all I know of Horenstein's work is the famous Mahler 3rd of his with the LSO. But the CD reissue I, at least, am acquainted with (on "Unicorn Kanchana") I count as one of the very few recordings I simply cannot listen to without suffering! :o
And that is no metaphor: the sound quality of that disc makes me nauseous and gives me headaches, every time I give it another chance. :-[
So I'll be watching this thread with interest, in case a sample of Horenstein's work (especially his Mahler) that will not be hazardous to my mental well-being "surfaces" here. ;)
My only disc (33rpm) of Horenstein is a Unicorn LP of Nielsen's 5th symphony.
I have listened to several other versions of this masterpiece, but I have not yet found
one that I prefer more than Horenstein's.
To answer topic creator, all of Horenstein's Mahler are must heard. The studios 1st, 3rd, 4th and the live ones issued on BBC Legends (Das Lied, Mahler 6 and 9th). If you like Bruckner 5th, you musn't miss the live Bruckner 8th and 9th too, superb performances. The 8th is easily the best performance recorded after Giulini.
This is probably the greatest thing Horenstein has ever done. You can't say you know M9 until you listened to this:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/517QB85DG9L._AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: MISHUGINA on October 23, 2007, 05:46:45 AM
To answer topic creator, all of Horenstein's Mahler are must heard. The studios 1st, 3rd, 4th and the live ones issued on BBC Legends (Das Lied, Mahler 6 and 9th). If you like Bruckner 5th, you musn't miss the live Bruckner 8th and 9th too, superb performances. The 8th is easily the best performance recorded after Giulini.
This is probably the greatest thing Horenstein has ever done. You can't say you know M9 until you listened to this:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/517QB85DG9L._AA240_.jpg)
Is this M9 the same performance that was out on M&A previously (coupled with a Marian Anderson
Kindertotenlieder)?
Quote from: edward on October 23, 2007, 05:54:55 AM
Is this M9 the same performance that was out on M&A previously (coupled with a Marian Anderson Kindertotenlieder)?
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/Nov01/Mahler9_Horenstein.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/Nov01/Mahler9_Horenstein.htm)
You should give the live Mahler 8th from 1959 a spin. Some folks are pretty head-over-heels for it, and, while I have different preferences, it is not bad. It was done in early-ish stereo, but it was also done in the Royal Albert Hall. Not bad recording quality, as I go back to it, and, for a one-off special performance, it comes off better than one might ordinarily expect. I'm still partial to Tennstedt and Bertini, but Horenstein's recording is a solid choice, too.
Quote from: Que on October 23, 2007, 01:42:56 AM
I would like to explore the recordings by Jascha Horenstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jascha_Horenstein) some more.
(Another interesting link (http://www.classical.net/music/performer/horenstein/index.html))
I know very litlle recordings by him, but I can recommend his Bruckner 5th on BBC Legends, which is elegant and "light", though emotionally profound. REVIEW (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/june00/bruckner5horenstein.htm)
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/june00/horensteinBBC.jpg)
Any fans here that can recommend me some more sterling Horenstein? :)
Some Mahler?
Q
That is my favorite Bruckner 5, and my favorite Horenstein recording. Other Horenstein I suggest are Mahler 3 & 4.
Mahler 8 has too many sound issues (seek Abbado) His Bruckner 8 & 9 needed better interpretation and playing (seek Boulez, Jochum for 8, and 1966 Karajan for 9, all DG).
Horenstein's Bruckner 8th on Vox/Turnabout is my favourite recording of this work. I am also very fond of the BBC version (below) as I was at that legendary concert as a youthful 15/16 year old (it was possibly the first classical concert I attended):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bruckner-Symphonies-Nos-8-9/dp/B00000IYMP/ref=sr_1_1/202-9347871-3364610?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1193247212&sr=1-1
I like Horenstein's versions of Nielsen's 5th Symphony.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 24, 2007, 09:37:38 AM
I like Horenstein's versions of Nielsen's 5th Symphony.
Have you heard both the Unicorn and the BBC Legends versions and can comment on them? I have read that the very OOP Unicorn performance should be superioir with some incredible snare drumming.
Quote from: rubio on October 24, 2007, 11:49:21 AM
Have you heard both the Unicorn and the BBC Legends versions and can comment on them? I have read that the very OOP Unicorn performance should be superioir with some incredible snare drumming.
I have both versions but am more familiar with the Unicorn. Yes, the snare drummer was on a roll (excuse pun) with the free cadenza. Furthermore, the recording is quite focused on the percussion. I love the mad drummer bit where the percussionist has to play as if intending to stop the orchestra and Horenstein's drummer is the most manic I have heard (and I have many recordings of that great work).
I can vaguely remember that his 8th and 9th Bruckner symphonies are pretty good.
Definitely check out his M3 too.
Quote from: Renfield on October 23, 2007, 05:15:51 AM
To be honest, all I know of Horenstein's work is the famous Mahler 3rd of his with the LSO. But the CD reissue I, at least, am acquainted with (on "Unicorn Kanchana") I count as one of the very few recordings I simply cannot listen to without suffering! :o
And that is no metaphor: the sound quality of that disc makes me nauseous and gives me headaches, every time I give it another chance. :-[
So I'll be watching this thread with interest, in case a sample of Horenstein's work (especially his Mahler) that will not be hazardous to my mental well-being "surfaces" here. ;)
I so agree with this. There's a marvelous performance there, ruined by the recording.
>:(
He is without doubt David Hurwitz's favourite conductor by ever so much.
I know it would please him if we all went out and bought all of the discs by this conductor.
Favourites include his Simpson, Mahler and Nielsen for Unicorn and Bruckner and Liszt for Vox.
Do not hesitate. You will not be disappointed.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 24, 2007, 09:37:38 AM
Horenstein's Bruckner 8th on Vox/Turnabout is my favourite recording of this work. I am also very fond of the BBC version (below) as I was at that legendary concert as a youthful 15/16 year old (it was possibly the first classical concert I attended):
I was there, too. Maybe you were the young guy sitting next to me? My father was playing in the orchestra. The atmosphere that evening was terrific.
Re-listening, however, I know I just don't like Mahler's 8th symphony. Of Mahler, I only really enjoy the fourth symphony, and the song cycles including, of course, Das Lied. A few isolated movements from the rest (including the opening movement and the slow movements of the ninth).
Quote from: alkan on October 23, 2007, 05:40:32 AM
My only disc (33rpm) of Horenstein is a Unicorn LP of Nielsen's 5th symphony.
I have listened to several other versions of this masterpiece, but I have not yet found
one that I prefer more than Horenstein's.
Was that with the New Philharmonia Orchestra? If so, I have what might be a reissue on Nonesuch LP. Yes, it's a fine, fine recording.
Until it wore out, I had a cassette of that Vox Turnabout Bruckner 8 with the Vienna Symphony; very fine. I've also heard the Mahler 1, Mahler 3, and (over the radio) Mahler 8. I have yet to hear a Horenstein performance I didn't like--including the historic M8. (Sorry, Harry, but I just have to disagree with you on Mahler 8's value. Let's not let our differences derail the thread. ;D) Like others have said, I love Horenstein's sense of musical architecture--especially important in big pieces like the Bruckner, Mahler and Nielsen symphonies.
Quote from: jochanaan on October 28, 2007, 07:23:10 PM
Was that with the New Philharmonia Orchestra? If so, I have what might be a reissue on Nonesuch LP. Yes, it's a fine, fine recording.
Yes, I believe it was the New Philharmonia, coupled with Saga Drom. I also remember the name of the side-drummer in the 5th symphony .... Alfred Dukes !!! He gives the best performance of any that I've heard .... really fights the orchestra tool and nail !!!
London Symphony, 1966, Music and Arts/CD235(1986)
Despite the lower sound quality the performance on the Music and Arts release really shines through...the Adagio is truly otherworldly. I think this concert now may be at the top or at least in the top 3 of my M9 choices...it is that incredible. The climaxes in the first movement are more crashing than I remembered...the third climax is really shattering (with the low A flat in the horn heard well, and the brass very piercing overall with excellant tam tam and timpani). The details in the orchestration are quite vivid in this mono recording.
London Symphony, 1966, BBC Legends (2001)
The performance on the BBC Legends release only suffers from the underwhelming Rondo movement, with the timapani player getting lost near the end, and an unfortunate mistake in the horn playing at a crucial point (when the horn takes on the main melody in the first section of the final Adagio)...otherwise the second movement shows much character and psychological intensity. The first movement here is devastating, with great contrast in dynamics with tempo choices holding the line of argument in a very tense manner. All in all, an essential Mahler 9 dispite the execution...the overall effect is quite satisfying and intriging...with many discoveries on each return hearing.
Orchestra Nationale, 1967, Disques Montaigne/TCE8862 (1988)
Horenstein's Orchestra Nationale Mahler 9 has it's moments as well, with unfortunate scrappy playing of the orchestra letting him down most of the time...still, I like to listen to this M9 because some of the ideas are very moving (especially in the first movement and Adagio). In particular, there are many details heard in the score I haven't heard elsewhere.
Despite the playing, the architecture is heard, and the effect is like a noble peformance as heard through suffering execution...which gives the work an even more desparate sound. Probably for completists only.
American Symphony, 1969, Music and Arts/CD785 (1993)
I almost prefer Horenstein's ASO Mahler 9 from Carnigie Hall (1969) as much as the 1966 LSO M&A performance...he has some interesting ideas in the first movement quite different than his other live M9's...and the playing, not counting an out of tune horn in one spot, is largely better then the BBC Legends M9...this surprised me.
The ASO play their hearts out. Again in the first movement the climaxes are truly powerful. In comparing the 1st movement with the 1st movement of his LSO accounts, I noticed Horenstein changed his thinking on the role of the timpani in the aftermath of the 1st and 3rd climax, they are not struck as hard as before, reminiscent of the timpani has heard on the Macal (on Exton) and the Bertini (on EMI) accounts of this work.
Back to the ASO, the 2nd and 3rd climaxes in the 1st movement are the most powerful of all Horenstein M9's...with a sense of mystery, with the tam tam very present and deep. The sound is much more improved over his London M9's, and his Orchestra Nationale M9.
---------------
P.S. I also started on listening to my old vox LP's of Horenstein's Vienna Symphony M9...but I didn't finish listening to this so will comment later since it's been some time since I listened to it.
That BBC Legends recording had that painfully long drawn out final movement right? It was just awful! What happened, why did he take it so glacially slow? It wasn't remotely musical. :(
Quote from: DavidW on November 02, 2009, 04:23:04 AM
That BBC Legends recording had that painfully long drawn out final movement right? It was just awful! What happened, why did he take it so glacially slow? It wasn't remotely musical. :(
I haven't heard it but Hurwitz says it's just over 25 minutes. Not particularly slow or fast. The real problem with this performance is the Rondo:
"The Rondo Burleske is a catastrophe. Starting with a flatulent trumpet and soggy strings, it proceeds from disaster to disaster. The first occurs at measure 186 (after the first loud cymbal crash), where horns and trumpets get out of sync. Next, a few seconds later at measure 198, the trumpets have disappeared entirely and the horns and lower strings can't agree on when to play. And then there's the timpanist. First, he misses his sforzando roll at measure 438 (beneath that wonderful chord on muted brass that introduces the first harp glissando). Then, just before the final stretto he comes in two bars early in his crucial solo, and also at his next three (!) entrances, only saving himself in time for the last few measures. And all of this takes place in the context of some very shaky ensemble (strings especially), at a plodding tempo that makes Mahler's counterpoint sound not just disjointed but at times totally disconnected. So the outer sections move too slowly while the middle interlude, with no "holding back" as Mahler demands, comes across as too fast and sadly neutral in expression, contrast, and point." --Hurwitz
The M&A performance seems to be the one to get (or the earlier Vox).
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 02, 2009, 06:47:10 AM
I haven't heard it but Hurwitz says it's just over 25 minutes. Not particularly slow or fast. The real problem with this performance is the Rondo:
I'm pretty sure he's wrong then, because I have heard it and it easily breaks 30 minutes. In fact, it's known (infamous) for being the longest on record! :D
Quote from: DavidW on November 02, 2009, 06:53:08 AM
I'm pretty sure he's wrong then, because I have heard it and it easily breaks 30 minutes. In fact, it's known (infamous) for being the longest on record! :D
You could be right although if you are it's hard to see how Hurwitz missed that fact. He even mentions that the tempo can't be faulted. I can't find the actual timings online. Maybe Leo will enlighten us.
Sarge
25'50
Quote from: Drasko on November 02, 2009, 07:50:11 AM
25'50
Thanks, Drasko. Maybe David was thinking of Horenstein's M6 which does have a very slow Finale, over 33 minutes. Or maybe he got his "steins" mixed up and he's thinking of Bernstein's DG M9 which does crawl along at an excessively slow speed.
Sarge
By the way, any thoughts on this set?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X6wfEKiuL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I've had it for awhile, but haven't really dived in yet.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 03, 2009, 04:00:21 AM
Or maybe he got his "steins" mixed up and he's thinking of Bernstein's DG M9 which does crawl along at an excessively slow speed.
Sarge
There is no way you will
ever confuse Horenstein's skills as a conductor with Bernstein.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 05, 2009, 06:14:16 AM
There is no way you will ever confuse Horenstein's skills as a conductor with Bernstein.
Well, skill aside, they
are very different personalities and conductors. I can enjoy both approaches.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 02, 2009, 06:55:44 AM
You could be right although if you are it's hard to see how Hurwitz missed that fact. He even mentions that the tempo can't be faulted. I can't find the actual timings online. Maybe Leo will enlighten us.
Sarge
In the covers of the BBC Legends Horenstein's Mahler 9th (LSO Royal Albert Hall 15 Sept 1966) it is inscribed 26:50 for the last movement. But when you listen to the recording and you consider the applauses and the spacing the Adagio actually takes "only" 25:50.
I understand the interest of discussing the tempi of the various readings but I must confess some hesitation. More than the "global time" of a movement my listening sensibility usually goes into the "timing" of the musical phrasing. For me, if the musical phrases are beautifully and interestingly done the tempo is probably "right". And in fact most of the great conductors, even those considered more faithful to the "urtext", gave us very different performances of the same works. And this is what I look for – the richness of perspective we get from those very individual performances.
A good example of this variability may be in comparing the BBC Legends with the Music & Arts releases of the Mahler 9th also by Horenstein and with the same orchestra (they were initially considered to be the same recording but the M&A is probably from a different LSO performance in April 1966, at The Royal Festival Hall). Contrary to some critics of excessively slow tempo in the BBC Legends recording, the old M&A version has been very much praised – but when you look closely the Adagio of the M&A performance takes even longer –27:40 ! (28:02 in the cover with the applause)
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:OGy9XvR9Zj0WcM:http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2001/Oct01/Mahler9_Horenstein_BBC.jpg) (http://www.ann.hi-ho.ne.jp/aria/jacket/G0156m.jpg)
In looking into his various Mahler 9's to see if I need to get one, I found this that Alex Ross wrote for the NY Times:
"Music and Arts has released competing accounts of the Mahler Ninth from Horenstein's later years, one with the London Symphony in 1962 (CD-235) and one with the American Symphony in 1969 (CD-785). Both have the swaying, searching energy typical of the conductor, though the London performance is distinctly better played and recorded. "
As usual conflicting opinions abound!
Quote from: E d o on November 09, 2009, 02:11:38 PM
In looking into his various Mahler 9's to see if I need to get one, I found this that Alex Ross wrote for the NY Times:
"Music and Arts has released competing accounts of the Mahler Ninth from Horenstein's later years, one with the London Symphony in 1962 (CD-235) and one with the American Symphony in 1969 (CD-785). Both have the swaying, searching energy typical of the conductor, though the London performance is distinctly better played and recorded. "
As usual conflicting opinions abound!
I definitely would try to get the Music and Arts Horenstein LSO M9 (CD-235), I think it's still rather easy to find from the Amazon used seller market...if you happen to see the American Symphony one (CD-785) by all means get it if the price isn't too high, as it is rather rare and expensive these days.
I have on LP , pressed in Holland Stravinsky Le Sacre du printemps, and see that Music and Arts have a CD transfer. The LP label says stereo and mono, I'll have to get it on the turntable to find out.
Beethoven's Missa Solemnis is not the easiest work to grasp.
In my mind many performances are either too heavy, too forcedly driven or lightly superficial, failing to give the sense of inner dramatic effect I look for.
For me, the Jascha Horenstein BBC SO is a truly moving and enlightening performance.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VFDZHJKPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZGGJlN3XQ8&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZGGJlN3XQ8&feature=related)
I'm bumping this, though my experience of Horenstein's recordings is regrettably slim, because in doing a websearch for downloads I discovered this on YouTube - a fascinating interview on Mahler, Berg et al. What really dumbfounds me is what H. reports Berg said about Delius; I bet Adorno was irritated as hell by this penchant of his teacher's - if Alban mentioned it to him or in fact ever got a word in sideways - Teddy certainly kept mum later on, as it wouldn't have "done" at all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv690IezMCs
Quote from: mjwal on June 28, 2011, 08:41:07 AM
I'm bumping this, though my experience of Horenstein's recordings is regrettably slim, because in doing a websearch for downloads I discovered this on YouTube - a fascinating interview on Mahler, Berg et al. What really dumbfounds me is what H. reports Berg said about Delius; I bet Adorno was irritated as hell by this penchant of his teacher's - if Alban mentioned it to him or in fact ever got a word in sideways - Teddy certainly kept mum later on, as it wouldn't have "done" at all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv690IezMCs
In 1958 he stood in for Klemperer at a Missa Solemnis prom with Peter Pears,Theresa Stich Randall and Norma Procter . The result was recorded for radio but never released -- the BBC did released a Missa from hom but it is nowhere near as good as this. I have it of course -- let me know if you want a link to it.
I am amazed to finally find a recording of Horenstein's Mahler 5, with the Berlin Philharmonic, live, August 31, 1961, Edinburgh Festival!
Expected poor sound, I was pleasantly surprised to hear the sound wasn't too bad. The blog I found this on has restored this recording really well:
http://metrognomemusic.blogspot.com/
I listened to it last night and was immediately taken with it. This performance captures all the dark orchestral effects like I haven't heard before, and the tempo holds it all together and time flys by. The BPO sound is incredible!
8)
Has anyone else heard this?
As I just mentioned in the Mahler thread, I'm listening to a fascinating account of the Symphony No. 3 led by Jascha Horenstein, with Helen Watts Highgate School Choir, Orpington Junior Singers London Symphony Chorus and Orchestra Royal Festival Hall, from London 1960. See the link to the blog in the post before this. You can find it there.
I like this 1960 much better than the 1970 on the Unicorn label. The sound is more open, the performance has the excitement of a live occassion, with power and drive, with the most wonderful gentle passages that takes my breath away. Nothing drags, it moves along with great detail and exuberance.
8)
I have had the Unicorn recording for many years and I don't understand what people hear in this recording that they go crazy over it. It is a good, solid recording, pretty well-played and conducted in a rather workman-like manner. I just don't think it deserves the hype that it does. Musicweb calls it "the most famous Mahler recording of all time" without any sort of qualification. I take it famous is not tantamount to overall quality.
I have listened to it numerous time. The conducting is rather straightforward, not much in the way of intervention of fussiness (which can be a great virtue). There are 3 main problems with this recording:
1) Jascha Horenstein's ability as a conductor is severely challenged. No more so than in the final movement when numerous crescendos, diminuendos, subtle tempo changes totally escape him. If you grab a score and follow along you will see what I am talking about. This is a very micro-managed movement (by Mahler, not Horenstein) with very explicit directions for almost every single bar, and half of these directions Horenstein simply ignore. To compare you can grab Bernstein's SONY NYPO recording and hear how Bernstein manages all these with such nuance and fluidity.
2) The playing of the LSO is competent but nothing spectacular. The posthorn solo especially is weak, rather lacking in the "freely played" nature that Mahler asked for. The coda of the final movement from the brass especially sound pinched, nowhere near the "saturated noble tone, but not with brute power" that Mahler asked for. In general I am not a big fan of this band playing Mahler, there just isn't enough contrast overall to make the music work. You hear the same issues in playing in the Solti recording with the same band although the conducting is better.
3) The recording is rather thin, at times the bass fades in and out. This is particulary egregious in the first movement where all those runs in the contrabasses don't come out as biting as they should.
So I would be happy to hear why people think this recording is so great.
His Das Lied was the first, or one of the first, I heard and it's been a sentimental favorite since then:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41N74N8K9TL.jpg)
Quote from: Geo Dude on June 15, 2014, 08:57:34 AM
His Das Lied was the first, or one of the first, I heard and it's been a sentimental favorite since then:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41N74N8K9TL.jpg)
Life-changing music!