Does anyone know a website or a computer program of anything I can learn some music theory from? I want to learn about timing, tempos etc.
Thanks
The best is Practica Musica by Ars Nova software:
http://www.ars-nova.com/home.html
I can't find it anywhere, upload yours to www.thepiratebay.org if it's not a problem, my violin goddess.
www.teoria.com
I'll send you some books also.
Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on March 16, 2008, 03:16:29 PM
www.teoria.com
I'll send you some books also.
Thank you Elias, my beloved friend.
I was looking just yesterday to see if there was a video to learn some basic music theory, but I couldn't find one. Do you guys think getting a little keyboard would help me learn music theory, by being able to play chords/scales and stuff? I think it would allow me to hear what I'm reading about which might help me connect the ideas together.
http://musictheory.net/
Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on March 16, 2008, 06:40:43 PM
I was looking just yesterday to see if there was a video to learn some basic music theory, but I couldn't find one. Do you guys think getting a little keyboard would help me learn music theory, by being able to play chords/scales and stuff? I think it would allow me to hear what I'm reading about which might help me connect the ideas together.
Yes, I think that would be a VERY good idea-- a bit of ear training helps rather than just seeing a bunch of abstract notation-- you don't even need to be proficient at the piano or anything-- just something for your ears to get used to hearing.
I believe keyboard skills are essential for learning theory. Many theory professors at universities would love to have aural training, keyboard harmony, and theory classes either in close conjunction or combined for musical training. Attempting to work on all three skills simultaneously would probably be the route, assuming we are talking about a non classroom setting.
I can also inquire to my close Theory Pedagogy friends.
Do you have any suggestions to help me be able to identify the same note being played an octave higher. I'm horrible at it.
Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on March 16, 2008, 11:04:28 PM
Do you have any suggestions to help me be able to identify the same note being played an octave higher. I'm horrible at it.
Sing all the way up a scale and then jump down the octave to the first note then back to the top note. Repeat as needed.
Quote from: Papageno on March 16, 2008, 10:20:40 AM
Does anyone know a website or a computer program of anything I can learn some music theory from? I want to learn about timing, tempos etc.
Thanks
if you'd like, i do have Walter Piston's "Orchestration", "Harmony", and "Counterpoint" and Schoenberg's "The Fundamentals of Music."
but if those websites are enough, that's fine also. 8)
I'm dubious of any methods of instruction where there is no interaction between you and a well-informed live teacher. Rather than look for websites, books, and such, I would sooner recommend taking a college-level course that deals with the questions you're asking.
When writing a key signature, how do you know when you use flats or sharps? For example I just wrote the notes to the E major scale
E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, E
How do you write this at the start of the score? And how do you know to use sharp signs or flat signs?
Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on March 24, 2008, 09:59:28 PM
When writing a key signature, how do you know when you use flats or sharps? For example I just wrote the notes to the E major scale
E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, E
How do you write this at the start of the score? And how do you know to use sharp signs or flat signs?
see, this is why you should enroll at a class somewhere, or seek a PROPER education. Sure, me, or anyone here who has any musical education can tell you the answer to your simple problem, but it's going to take ages before you ever learn anything substantial from us!
Hint:
look at the key signatures with one sharp and one flat, and one with 2 sharps and 2 flats, see a pattern?
I would like to, but music theory is non existent in Tijuana Mexico. I'm trying to figure out the key signatures by playing them on an online keyboard and witting down the notes in them. But I'm not sure what to do after this. When is it that you call a key a sharp and when is it a flat? I think if I could answer this then I could do a key signature.
Also what exactly does Fb mean? I was looking at one of those websites and noticed Fb could be a key signature, but there is no Fb on a keyboard, just E and then F. It confused me.
Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on March 25, 2008, 12:47:26 AM
I would like to, but music theory is non existent in Tijuana Mexico. I'm trying to figure out the key signatures by playing them on an online keyboard and witting down the notes in them. But I'm not sure what to do after this. When is it that you call a key a sharp and when is it a flat? I think if I could answer this then I could do a key signature.
Also what exactly does Fb mean? I was looking at one of those websites and noticed Fb could be a key signature, but there is no Fb on a keyboard, just E and then F. It confused me.
If there are no music theory teachers then there must be a piano teacher. The best way is to learn theory alongside an instrument. If that is not a possibility then I would recommend you start at the very bottom with "What to listen to in music" by Aaron Copland. From there move to the Associated Boards of the Royal School of Music (ABSRM) Theory books 1 and 2. The books are not perfect but they start from a zero knowledge base. From there you need to take a more in depth look at tonal harmony (texts by Aldwell or Kostka) and classical counterpoint (start with Fux, move onto Kennan) and orchestration (Adler). Anything beyond the ABSRM books might be tough without a teacher/instrument to play. If you just want the basics then the ABSRM books are ideal for you.
Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on March 25, 2008, 12:47:26 AM
Also what exactly does Fb mean? I was looking at one of those websites and noticed Fb could be a key signature, but there is no Fb on a keyboard, just E and then F. It confused me.
I think this link will answer this specific question
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/html/id20_en.html (http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/html/id20_en.html)
If you need a teacher depends on how serious you are. I'd say it's similar to learning a language, if you just want to be able to ask for directions and order at a restaurant then books and self-study will do, but it you want to speak fluently and write essays you need a teacher and a few years of hard work.
Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on March 25, 2008, 12:47:26 AM
Also what exactly does Fb mean? I was looking at one of those websites and noticed Fb could be a key signature, but there is no Fb on a keyboard, just E and then F. It confused me.
Fb! ;D
makes me laugh....... don't know why, just sounds like a silly note
Quote from: rickardg on March 25, 2008, 02:39:46 AM
If you need a teacher depends on how serious you are. I'd say it's similar to learning a language, if you just want to be able to ask for directions and order at a restaurant then books and self-study will do, but it you want to speak fluently and write essays you need a teacher and a few years of hard work.
ummmmmmm you don't really NEED a teacher for the above (or in addition, to play an instrument very well) although it never hurts.
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on March 25, 2008, 05:19:20 AM
Fb! ;D
makes me laugh....... don't know why, just sounds like a silly note
Why? perfectly normal note. E..L..I..A..S.. (and you) should be aware that
any note can either be spelled as natural (F), or can be sharped, double-sharped, flatted, or double-flatted. What has to be gotten past is the notion that these spellings have to do with the layout of the piano keyboard. F double-sharp is identical on the piano with G, and F double-flat with the note Eb or D#. The reason for these spellings has to do with the melodic and harmonic implications of the pitches, not their position on the keyboard.
Quote from: Sforzando on March 25, 2008, 05:31:17 AM
Why? perfectly normal note. E..L..I..A..S.. (and you) should be aware that any note can either be spelled as natural (F), or can be sharped, double-sharped, flatted, or double-flatted. What has to be gotten past is the notion that these spellings have to do with the layout of the piano keyboard. F double-sharp is identical on the piano with G, and F double-flat with the note Eb or D#. The reason for these spellings has to do with the melodic and harmonic implications of the pitches, not their position on the keyboard.
yeah, i know, just always seemed silly to me. I usually avoid stuff like Db minor when writing, though..... although i'm sure i've used it before several times.
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on March 25, 2008, 05:19:20 AM
ummmmmmm you don't really NEED a teacher for the above (or in addition, to play an instrument very well) although it never hurts.
OK, I admit that 'need' (and perhaps 'teacher') was a bit exaggerated.
What I meant was that most learners can strongly benefit from interacting with and carefully observing people significantly better than themselves. For learning languages just about any native speaker will do and I've learnt a lot by being the worst member of most bands I've played with.
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on March 25, 2008, 05:34:31 AM
yeah, i know, just always seemed silly to me. I usually avoid stuff like Db minor when writing, though..... although i'm sure i've used it before several times.
Db minor (and its relative major Fb) does not exist as a key signature. It would have to be a perfect fifth below Cb major/Ab minor (seven flats), and would therefore require a B-double flat in the signature, which is never used. Enharmonically of course Db minor/Fb major would be equivalent to C# minor/E major (four sharps).
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG link=topic=6691.msg160784#msg160784ummmmmmm you don't really NEED a teacher for the above (or in addition, to play an instrument very well) although it never hurts.
Yeah, you do - especially to play an instrument very well, you really do NEED a teacher.
Quote from: Sforzando on March 25, 2008, 06:47:40 AM
Db minor (and its relative major Fb) does not exist as a key signature. It would have to be a perfect fifth below Cb major/Ab minor (seven flats), and would therefore require a B-double flat in the signature, which is never used. Enharmonically of course Db minor/Fb major would be equivalent to C# minor/E major (four sharps).
...which isn't to say they can't be used as keys e.g. the D flat minor which Janacek used very commonly, or the climax in E sharp major in Brian's 8th Symphony; they just require the extra flats or sharps to be added into the music, not forming part of the key signature.. And of course
chords spelt in this way are very common - one of the most famous chords in music is made up of an F flat major chord under a dominant seventh chord on E flat (think thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud
thud thud
thud .....)
Quote from: lukeottevanger on March 25, 2008, 08:44:57 AM
...which isn't to say they can't be used as keys e.g. the D flat minor which Janacek used very commonly, or the climax in E sharp major in Brian's 8th Symphony; they just require the extra flats or sharps to be added into the music, not forming part of the key signature.. And of course chords spelt in this way are very common - one of the most famous chords in music is made up of an F flat major chord under a dominant seventh chord on E flat (think thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud .....)
I am impressed at your Brianic knowledge, Luke. And your Igor is very good, too. ;)
Yes, I don't know what R3's 'Building A Library' were thinking, leaving out my rendition of the Rite from their consideration.
As for the Brian - I only saw the score for a brief time, years ago (and how I want to get my mitts on it again!) My knowledge of the E sharp major climax mostly comes from MacDonald (as usual).
Quote from: lukeottevanger on March 25, 2008, 08:58:11 AM
Yes, I don't know what R3's 'Building A Library' were thinking, leaving out my rendition of the Rite from their consideration.
As for the Brian - I only saw the score for a brief time, years ago (and how I want to get my mitts on it again!) My knowledge of the E sharp major climax mostly comes from MacDonald (as usual).
Erm... not to make your mouth water, Luke, but I have several Brian scores. When I joined the HBS in 1984, the frist thing I ordered were three study scores from Musica Viva (8, 10, 21). They got lost in the post... The publisher, Graham Hatton, very kindly sent them again. And now they have been here for the last 25 years (almost). Later I bought scores from UMP (very expensive...) of the Third and Seventh. And through a friend of mine I got the Eleventh. All facsimiles, of course. The HBS is busy preparing printed scores (using Sibelius, the software program) of several of Brian's major scores. But this has been going on for years. I hope we'll see results before long. It's all done by enthusiasts, of course...
Quote from: Jezetha on March 25, 2008, 09:07:58 AM
Erm... not to make your mouth water, Luke, but I have several Brian scores. When I joined the HBS in 1984, the frist thing I ordered were three study scores from Musica Viva (8, 10, 21). They got lost in the post... The publisher, Graham Hatton, very kindly sent them again. And now they have been here for the last 25 years (almost). Later I bought scores from UMP (very expensive...) of the Third and Seventh. And through a friend of mine I got the Eleventh. All facsimiles, of course. The HBS is busy preparing printed scores (using Sibelius, the software program) of several of Brian's major scores. But this has been going on for years. I hope we'll see results before long. It's all done by enthusiasts, of course...
Musica Viva's 8 10 and 21 were the ones I saw too, as a teenager. They were in Leicester's Goldsmith Music Library - possibly a relic of the LSSO days, who knows. Obviously I have the Gothic too, and the Fantastic Variations, but that's it.
Mouth watering
disgustingly, btw - no 3 and no 7? Two I've always been (particularly) dying to see!
Quote from: lukeottevanger on March 25, 2008, 09:12:55 AM
Musica Viva's 8 10 and 21 were the ones I saw too, as a teenager. They were in Leicester's Goldsmith Music Library - possibly a relic of the LSSO days, who knows. Obviously I have the Gothic too, and the Fantastic Variations, but that's it.
Mouth watering disgustingly, btw - no 3 and no 7? Two I've always been (particularly) dying to see!
Not to pile it on - add the Violin Concerto. I had forgotten it... The problem is that the scores of 3, 7, 11 and VC are physically quite large. I don't have a scanner, apart from the fact that it would be rather time-consuming. Those three study scores, otoh, would be more manageable.
I'll have a think.
Quote from: Jezetha on March 25, 2008, 09:21:50 AM
Not to pile it on - add the Violin Concerto.
:o :'( >:(
Just make sure you don't leave it at the train station....
...you could leave it on a train, of course....but only if it's in an envelope with my name on it and the train is coming to my house. Add the other scores whilst you're at it.... ;D
Quote from: lukeottevanger on March 25, 2008, 09:35:18 AM
:o :'( >:(
Just make sure you don't leave it at the train station....
I won't. And if I do, I'll simply write a third VC...
Quote from: lukeottevanger on March 25, 2008, 08:44:57 AM
...which isn't to say they can't be used as keys e.g. the D flat minor which Janacek used very commonly, or the climax in E sharp major in Brian's 8th Symphony; they just require the extra flats or sharps to be added into the music, not forming part of the key signature.. And of course chords spelt in this way are very common - one of the most famous chords in music is made up of an F flat major chord under a dominant seventh chord on E flat (think thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud .....)
Absolutely true. My point simply concerned the key
signatures. And I wasn't talking about individual chords per se, as with your thud thud thud
thud thud (abridged) example.
Sfz,
whose Igor is good, but who pretends to no Brianic knowledge
(nor cares)
There's a place in a Beethoven string quartet...can't remember which one nor which movement, but he implies the key of F-flat major with the melody slowly stepping down from A-flat to C-flat... & then stopping so that the needed and expected B-double flat to confirm such a foreign...shall I say forbidden key?...is not to be seen or heard. What a sly guy. :)
Quote from: Sforzando on March 25, 2008, 10:00:29 AM
Sfz,
whose Igor is good, but who pretends to no Brianic knowledge (nor cares)
Shame on you!
Quote from: Sforzando on March 25, 2008, 06:47:40 AM
Db minor (and its relative major Fb) does not exist as a key signature.
well, that's why i avoid it ;D
Quote from: Sforzando on March 25, 2008, 06:50:26 AM
Yeah, you do - especially to play an instrument very well, you really do NEED a teacher.
oh, no you don't, not always, not everyone 8)
Quote from: Jezetha on March 25, 2008, 10:11:50 AM
Shame on you!
I can't even get through the Gothic without wanting to turn the noisy, ugly thing off; how am I supposed to get through 31 others? :D
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on March 25, 2008, 10:14:53 AM
oh, no you don't, not always, not everyone 8)
Yeah, everyone. You find me one example of a professional pianist, violinist, cellist, what have you, who's self-taught, and I'll give you - my copy of the 2-CD set of the Havergal Brian Gothic Symphony! When you're self-taught, you pick up bad habits you can't correct, you don't learn proper technique, and you never learn more than you know already. It's a bad idea.
Quote from: Sforzando on March 25, 2008, 06:50:26 AM
Yeah, you do - especially to play an instrument very well, you really do NEED a teacher.
Quote from: Sforzando on March 25, 2008, 10:28:13 AM
Yeah, everyone. You find me one example of a professional pianist, violinist, cellist, what have you, who's self-taught, and I'll give you - my copy of the 2-CD set of the Havergal Brian Gothic Symphony! When you're self-taught, you pick up bad habits you can't correct, you don't learn proper technique, and you never learn more than you know already. It's a bad idea.
If we're talking classical music here, yes, definitely. Rock, or jazz or whatever, no (and in fact those "bad habits" sometimes work to one's advantage in those cases-- like
Jimi Hendrix for example)-- but the approach of classical is different from rock, jazz, etc.
Quote from: Jezetha on March 25, 2008, 09:07:58 AM
The HBS is busy preparing printed scores (using Sibelius, the software program) of several of Brian's major scores. But this has been going on for years. I hope we'll see results before long. It's all done by enthusiasts, of course...
But not that enthusiastically, it seems. Personally, I'd happily take on the job of type-setting*. I've got Sibelius sitting here begging to be used for some worthwhile music for a change.
* I've done so before, for a much lesser composer than HB. I couldn't bring myself to lavish all my care and attention on him, though I did a good job, I think.
Quote from: Sforzando on March 25, 2008, 10:25:17 AM
I can't even get through the Gothic without wanting to turn the noisy, ugly thing off; how am I supposed to get through 31 others? :D
Why, through curiosity, open-mindedness and trust in the opinions of others, of course ;)
BTW, have you tried HB no 8 yet, as I recommended? It's only wafer-thin....
(http://www.humorlinks.com/python/pictures/mean/vi-creo2.jpg)
Quote from: Sforzando on March 25, 2008, 10:28:13 AM
Yeah, everyone. You find me one example of a professional pianist, violinist, cellist, what have you, who's self-taught, and I'll give you - my copy of the 2-CD set of the Havergal Brian Gothic Symphony! When you're self-taught, you pick up bad habits you can't correct, you don't learn proper technique, and you never learn more than you know already. It's a bad idea.
well, i did a quick search for pianists......
found two, which are "largely self-taught"- Richter and Brendel......
not to mention a guitarist i had in mind, who you've probably never heard of (and who is rated as one of the greatest virtuoso guitar players of all time).....
and i'm not trying to brag, but the reason i said that was that i play this dude's stuff and i'm sure there's many other self-taught guitarists who can.....
as for violin and cello, i don't know, but there's also famous self-taught composers, too.....
a few i can think of: Telemann, Takemitsu, Elgar.
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on March 25, 2008, 10:47:13 AM
well, i did a quick search for pianists......
found two, which are "largely self-taught"- Richter and Brendel......
Hardly!
In any case, largely self-taught is not at all the same as entirely self-taught. I'm largely self-taught, and I consider that not a bad thing....but I wouldn't be any sort of musician at all without having had contact with real-life musicians.
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on March 25, 2008, 10:47:13 AM
not to mention a guitarist i had in mind, who you've probably never heard of (and who is rated as one of the greatest virtuoso guitar players of all time).....
and i'm not trying to brag, but the reason i said that was that i play this dude's stuff and i'm sure there's many other self-taught guitarists who can.....
as for violin and cello, i don't know, but there's also famous self-taught composers, too.....
But not entirely self-taught, again. Not even the most iconoclastic, individual figures made their way without grounding in the basics. Even Havergal Brian himself, supposedly self-taught, actually was no such thing - he was well grounded in harmony and counterpoint by a local musician. Didn't stop him developing his own very personal way forward, but it gave him a strong base to work from. Janacek is another one - such a strong personal style, forged by himself alone.....but he studied at a 'conservatoire' too, and his lessons with Skuhersky were very important to him indeed. Satie flunked at the Paris Conservatoire and found his own way afterwards...but his knowledge that he was deficient in certain areas led him, as a middle-aged man, to have the humility to take himself back to the Scola Cantorum. And so on and on... I'd say it would be impossible to find a composer who has had no formative, personal contact with more experienced musicians as a young man
Quote from: lukeottevanger on March 25, 2008, 10:58:40 AM
I'd say it would be impossible to find a composer who has had no formative, personal contact with more experienced musicians as a young man
well, if you're in the music business, it is likely you'll come into contact with someone, right? 8)
If you really wanted to bite the bullet, take a class at the closest community collage that offers any fundamentals of music course and progress up to theory 2. I know that i can't learn a damned thing from books alone or those computer programs. I need someone to teach and interact with, ask questions to. But that might just be me.
c#
Quote from: lukeottevanger on March 25, 2008, 10:36:44 AM
Why, through curiosity, open-mindedness and trust in the opinions of others, of course ;)
BTW, have you tried HB no 8 yet, as I recommended? It's only wafer-thin....
Yes, Sforzando, why not try the Eighth Symphony (http://www.mediafire.com/?0jf2yvnm2tj)? (NB - 33 MB!) It's the symphony that bowled over Robert Simpson so much that he had Sir Adrian Boult conduct it. Which started off a whole 'Brian Renaissance'...
Quote from: c#minor on March 25, 2008, 11:31:45 AM
If you really wanted to bite the bullet, take a class at the closest community collage that offers any fundamentals of music course and progress up to theory 2. I know that i can't learn a damned thing from books alone or those computer programs. I need someone to teach and interact with, ask questions to. But that might just be me.
c#
i'm the complete opposite- every time people talk to me, my mind starts wandering......
depends on the person, i guess...
Quote from: Jezetha on March 25, 2008, 11:45:49 AM
Yes, Sforzando, why not try the Eighth Symphony (http://www.mediafire.com/?0jf2yvnm2tj)? (NB - 33 MB!) It's the symphony that bowled over Robert Simpson so much that he had Sir Adrian Boult conduct it. Which started off a whole 'Brian Renaissance'...
I can hardly object to downloading a free MP3! (How can I resist something wafer-thin with a climax in E# major?) If I like it, I'll buy the commercial CD.
Quote from: Sforzando on March 25, 2008, 06:44:05 PM
I can hardly object to downloading a free MP3! (How can I resist something wafer-thin with a climax in E# major?) If I like it, I'll buy the commercial CD.
Excellent!
(Though, with the two-fer where this came from currently OOP, this is the only way you're able it to hear at the moment... But it's the intention that matters!)
Quote from: Jezetha on March 25, 2008, 11:33:41 PM
Excellent!
(Though, with the two-fer where this came from currently OOP, this is the only way you're able it to hear at the moment... But it's the intention that matters!)
Might be OOP, but still available. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brian-Symphonies-Nos-9-31/dp/B00006YX75/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1206519697&sr=1-5) And indispensable, too - surely
the Brian disc which everyone ought to hear.
Quote from: lukeottevanger on March 26, 2008, 12:25:10 AM
Might be OOP, but still available. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brian-Symphonies-Nos-9-31/dp/B00006YX75/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1206519697&sr=1-5) And indispensable, too - surely the Brian disc which everyone ought to hear.
Thanks for correcting me, Luke. And yes - this two-fer is
the introduction to Brian.
Quote from: Sforzando on March 25, 2008, 10:28:13 AM
Yeah, everyone. You find me one example of a professional pianist, violinist, cellist, what have you, who's self-taught, and I'll give you - my copy of the 2-CD set of the Havergal Brian Gothic Symphony! When you're self-taught, you pick up bad habits you can't correct, you don't learn proper technique, and you never learn more than you know already. It's a bad idea.
Julian Bream was self-taught but he is very much the exception because, as you say, a teacher is a necessity. Although he was a fantastic player, he did have some unconventional aspects to his technique, probably because he was an auto-didact.
Quote from: Jezetha on March 25, 2008, 11:33:41 PM
Excellent!
(Though, with the two-fer where this came from currently OOP, this is the only way you're able it to hear at the moment... But it's the intention that matters!)
What amuses me is how, on another thread, if someone calls Mozart and Beethoven "overrated," they are greeted with yawns and indifference. But say anything about Havergal Brian and Co., and there are outraged protests. :D
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on March 25, 2008, 10:47:13 AM
well, i did a quick search for pianists......
found two, which are "largely self-taught"- Richter and Brendel......
not to mention a guitarist i had in mind, who you've probably never heard of (and who is rated as one of the greatest virtuoso guitar players of all time).....
and i'm not trying to brag, but the reason i said that was that i play this dude's stuff and i'm sure there's many other self-taught guitarists who can.....
as for violin and cello, i don't know, but there's also famous self-taught composers, too.....
a few i can think of: Telemann, Takemitsu, Elgar.
First of all, none of us has heard your guitar playing, and we don't know how well you play or not if you're self-taught. You say you're not trying to brag, but it's clear you think you're a pretty good instrumentalist. The problem, though, is that unless a qualified guitarist sees and hears you, you have no way of knowing if you're acquiring bad habits or have technical insufficiencies that you may not be aware of yourself.
Whenever I hear a young would-be musician going on about how many composers and other musicians are "self-taught," it's pretty clear these people have an exaggerated sense of their own merits and are unwilling to submit to the rigors that professional instruction would put them through. The argument seems to go something like this:
1) A few musicians of genius have succeeded by teaching themselves.
2) I am a musician of genius!
3) Therefore I can succeed by teaching myself!
I trust the weakness of this syllogism should be self-evident. And lest you think I'm exaggerating, I have seen numerous examples where would-be composers and instrumentalists have staunchly rejected any attempts at criticism and advice from people with more experience. These wannabees have been told since day one by "experts" (read: mom, dad, uncle Bob, themselves) that they are born geniuses; therefore, any attempt at criticism and advice can be motivated only by envy and malice. (In operatic form, this kind of attitude is documented in the character of Walther von Stolzing in the earlier acts of Wagner's Meistersinger.)
But just bear in mind while you are resisting any attempts to seek out a teacher, other wannabees are receiving expert guidance - and they're the ones who will succeed in music professionally. Sorry to be blunt about this, GGGRRREEEEGGG, but it's the truth.
I know we've left poor E..L..I..A..S.. way behind . . . .
Quote from: Sforzando on March 26, 2008, 05:29:36 AM
What amuses me is how, on another thread, if someone calls Mozart and Beethoven "overrated," they are greeted with yawns and indifference. But say anything about Havergal Brian and Co., and there are outraged protests. :D
Mozart and Beethoven are cultural facts of the first importance. They are here and will remain here as long as there are people able to play an instrument.
The case for Brian, on the other hand, isn't yet made, and his reputation is still not very high. I know the limitations of some of Brian's works very well. I have lived with his music for almost 30 years now. But I know his strengths as well, and for those I am willing to play the evangelist from time to time.
Brian at his best is second to no other composer in the twentieth century. His strongest works are as strong now as they ever were. That, to me, is a sign of his greatness (and believe me, I am a very very critical listener).
And here endeth the lesson. ;)
Quote from: Jezetha on March 26, 2008, 05:48:16 AM
The case for Brian, on the other hand, isn't yet made, and his reputation is still not very high. I know the limitations of some of Brian's works all too well. I have lived with his music for almost 30 years now. But I know his strengths as well, and for those I am willing to play the evangelist from time to time.
Brian at his best is second to no other composer in the twentieth century. His strongest works are as strong now as they ever were. That, to me, is a sign of his greatness (and believe me, I am a very very critical listener).
I'll see and hear for myself. I am a very very
very critical listener. :D But your argument so far provides only assertions.
Quote from: Sforzando on March 26, 2008, 05:51:36 AM
I'll see and hear for myself. I am a very very very critical listener. :D But your argument so far provides only assertions.
I know. They are the end result. Listen to the Eighth. And then we can discuss whether Brian amounts to anything.
Quote from: Jezetha on March 26, 2008, 06:02:00 AM
I know. They are the end result. Listen to the Eighth. And then we can discuss whether Brian amounts to anything.
Fair enough, Jezetha. I've downloaded your link, burned a CD for myself, and will give it several listens with as open a mind as I have.
Quote from: Sforzando on March 26, 2008, 06:09:48 AM
Fair enough, Jezetha. I've downloaded your link, burned a CD for myself, and will give it several listens with as open a mind as I have.
Thanks.
Quote from: Sforzando on March 26, 2008, 05:45:56 AM
The problem, though, is that unless a qualified guitarist sees and hears you, you have no way of knowing if you're acquiring bad habits or have technical insufficiencies that you may not be aware of yourself.
There's this thing called a tape recorder....... you listen to it and hear what you play.
I can tell when i'm making mistakes, and I figure out how to correct them. Then I play the same thing again, and it's right the next time. That simple, really....
Quote from: Sforzando on March 26, 2008, 05:45:56 AM
1) A few musicians of genius have succeeded by teaching themselves.
2) I am a musician of genius!
3) Therefore I can succeed by teaching myself!
Not exactly how it went.
If you have no money to take guitar lessons, you have to learn to teach yourself. If there's no composition teacher around (and besides, you have no money for it) you have to teach yourself composition. It's not that I just decided I'm great and avoided teachers. ::)
As for composition, everyone seemed to like my earlier stuff, especially the first two opuses- the 2nd one being a string quartet that was only runner-up in a composing competition because i wrote it by hand- in pen, and they complained about it. I still have the letter- they said (loose quotations) "You exhibit great imagination...... but you need print it out by computer, because it was frustrating to read at times."
Some of my other stuff after that actually isn't that great, so I'm trying to rebound with what I'm writing now- and erasing EVERYTHING that just isn't top quality (which means A LOT).
As for guitar, people have asked me who my teacher is and they're somehow surprised that I don't have one. It's not that I'm too good for one (in fact, it would sound like FUN!); I'm just so used to learning stuff by myself that the thought of seeking a teacher has never occured to me at all......
Popular music is mostly based on self taught musicians. I rest my case. ::)
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on March 26, 2008, 11:09:28 AM
::)
Roll your eyes as much as you like. :D But then listen to yourself:
QuoteThere's this thing called a tape recorder....... you listen to it and hear what you play.
I can tell when i'm making mistakes, and I figure out how to correct them. Then I play the same thing again, and it's right the next time. That simple, really....
Look, whether you succeed in music or just want to enjoy it for yourself is up to you. It's no sweat off my back if you never take lessons from a qualified teacher. Certainly what you're saying is not as extreme as I've heard, and there seems to be some healthy degree of self-criticism built into you. But the difference is in degree, not kind. Learning an instrument is a lot more than not making mistakes. Not that simple, really....
Quote from: Sforzando on March 26, 2008, 05:29:36 AM
What amuses me is how, on another thread, if someone calls Mozart and Beethoven "overrated," they are greeted with yawns and indifference. But say anything about Havergal Brian and Co., and there are outraged protests. :D
I don't recognise that state of affairs, really. When someone calls Mozart and Beethoven overrated - for 'someone', read Saul, or Paul, or Poju, or Josh - the defensive posts fly very quickly, and quite rightly (I post them as much as anyone). Why else do the Elgar and Mendelssohn threads grow so fast!?
OTOH, I and Johan and others who know and love their Brian are very well aware of the composer's limitations, and could probably list them exhaustively; trust me, protests against Brian criticism are not outraged, just resigned and a little sorrowful, above all because we are all too aware that most people who pronounce on Brian have heard very little of his music, nor really attempted to take on trust that he was a capable composer, one worth coming to grips with, nor to find their bearings in his very individual world (and it
is very individual - that's what makes it so hard, but so rewarding), nor made the effort to 'listen through' the often pretty mediocre performances some of his symphonies have to be heard in (imagine if you only knew Nielsen 6 from ropey recording of a youth orchestra). Instead, there is the easy path taken - it's easy to distrust a composer, to reject them, even to laugh at them, and Brian has had cheap ridicule thrown at him for years, just as in different ways Mahler or Bartok or Bruckner or so many others did. Critics love to win easy points, and Brian is an easy composer to score them off - but when the charges laid against him are held up to examination, they tend to melt away.
Make no mistake - you know I wouldn't make these statements lightly, and you also know that I am as sensitive as you when it comes to the hyping of minor composers above their true worth. above all, you know that I utterly reject the kind of post which says 'my minor composer x is actually a much finer composer than major composer y'. Brian isn't even my own favourite composer - I just think he is very fine, very different and very little understood, and I know that once he is understood, he gives back more to the listener than many better-known composers. My judgement about Brian is realistic: he is a tough composer to learn to love, but he genuinely is a symphonic thinker of the very first rank. I don't think him a superior composer to Mahler, Bruckner, Nielsen or Sibelius, not at all -he doesn't have their fluency, for a start - but I do think that as a
symphonist (a different and very particular skill) he was every bit their equal. You will not find more original formal thinking or more a penetrating, searching understanding of symphonic processes in any of the more famous names than you do in Brian; as a cycle his 32 symphonies, which takes us deep into extreme old age, are a most extraordinarily powerful, heroic series of explorations into uncharted areas. Except in surface mannerisms, none is similar to any other - just think, 32 symhponies, none with the same formal plan, none with an opening reminiscent of any other (c.w. Bruckner!). But you won't know that if you don't listen to him, and the way that you tend to half-jest about never managing to get through the Gothic actually only reads like someone who writes Mahler off because they couldn't fight their way through one of his tougher or larger edifices - say, either movement of Mahler 8, or the first of Mahler 3. You'd feel slightly frustrated for them, I'm sure and I, with the knowledge that there are so many outstanding moments in Brian, the like of which are not to be found in any other composer - I feel frustrated that for you that you won't hear them.
But you have Johan's link to Brian 8, which I think is a superb piece. It's no coincidence, though, that it has received one of the finest of all Brian recordings, and perhaps there are Brian symphonies which would be revealed to be just as compelling as no 8 if they were given a better airing (Brian isn't as technically hard as many contemporary composers, but he is often played somewhat cavalierly, as if he were just a Romantic, and his carefully judged orchestration suffers because of it). No 8 is the Brian symphony par excellence because it carries his technique of abrupt juxtapositions to an extreme. I would imagine that those juxtapositions are for many people the single biggest problem in getting to grips with Brian, and they are for me too, in some of his pieces - but I never had the slightest problem with them in no 8, even as a young teenager. It gripped me utterly from from the first time I heard it, something I can't say of certain other more famous symphonies. Perhaps, again, the performance has something to do with it, as those juxtapositions need to understood and handled in a particular way, as I feel they are here. In any event, what we have here is a symphony built on the principle of two opposing
types - one militaristic, one lyrical/poetic/visionary. The very opening of the symphony gives it to us boldly: a weirdly scored martial figure for two bars, then a potent, poetic horn-call. Everything springs from this - it's amazing to think that this opening, which so impressed Robert Simpson and which is still so powerful (one of my favourite openings in all music) was written after the rest of the symphony, as if Brian was able to extrapolate these basic motives, in their pure form, from what he had already written...reminds me of the beginning of the Grosse Fuge in that respect, though I can't recall if beethoven worked at that in a similar way, and the effect is of course very different.
Anyway, I won't bore you with outlining the piece - you can hear it for yourself - though I will point out that it is, IMO, one of Brian's most melodically radiant pieces (there's a long tune for sparsely-accompanied violins which is particularly effective, and which later blossoms into the lyrical section that reaches teh E# major climax). But it might help to know that the later stages of the (one movement) symphony present two passacaglias, with some of the most fantastic, weird, light-fingered scoring I've ever seen...
anyway, enough for now. :)
I actually read your whole post, Luke.
But did you learn anything from it? ;D
I know, I know....verbosity is my middle name
not outraged, just resigned and a little sorrowful
But that's beautiful.
Quote from: lukeottevanger on March 27, 2008, 08:26:57 AM
I know, I know....verbosity is my middle name
That's why they made your first name so short, LVO.
Lukewig van Otterhoven?
Quote from: lukeottevanger on March 27, 2008, 08:26:57 AM
But did you learn anything from it? ;D
I know, I know....verbosity is my middle name
Oh, of course I did!
Next time I listen to him I'll remember what you wrote.
Another thing I'd like to learn is how to find a composition teacher.......
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on March 27, 2008, 08:31:14 AM
Another thing I'd like to learn is how to find a composition teacher.......
Comb the Starbucks boutiques in the city of Boston.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 27, 2008, 08:33:30 AM
Comb the Starbucks boutiques in the city of Boston.
what does that mean? ???
A lot of people who have studied or are studying composition are working in the coffee-service industry.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 27, 2008, 08:55:58 AM
A lot of people who have studied or are studying composition are working in the coffee-service industry.
But not Dr. Henning, I trust.
GGGRRREEEEEGGG: "Another thing I'd like to learn is how to find a composition teacher......."
- good for you, GGGGRRREEEEEGGGG. Now all you have to do is find a Starbucks boutique in the swamps of Florida.
And Luke, I do appreciate that lengthy encomium. All I can say is that I have the 8th symphony at hand, courtesy of Jezetha, and I will give it as fair a hearing as I can.
Quote from: karlhenning on March 27, 2008, 08:55:58 AM
A lot of people who have studied or are studying composition are working in the coffee-service industry.
Ahhhhh i get it.
Quote from: Sforzando on March 27, 2008, 10:10:55 AM
GGGRRREEEEEGGG: "Another thing I'd like to learn is how to find a composition teacher......."
- good for you, GGGGRRREEEEEGGGG. Now all you have to do is find a Starbucks boutique in the swamps of Florida.
You know, that would be cool....... i guess the only way to get a teacher is to leave open the possibility of classes at a music college, maybe when I'm 30 and NOT working at Starbucks. ;)
(or find a REAL composer and get private lessons)
Quote from: James on March 27, 2008, 03:51:32 PM
Always remember : Rules are for the guidance of wise men, but the obedience of fools.
That's an interesting statement. Who originally said that?
Quote from: johnQpublic on March 28, 2008, 04:56:04 AM
That's an interesting statement. Who originally said that?
Take your pick:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Bader
http://getitquietly.blogspot.com/2006/08/obedience-of-fools.html
Quote from: James on March 27, 2008, 03:51:32 PM
Always remember : Rules are for the guidance of wise men, but the obedience of fools.
If you wanna be unemployed, yeah. He must mean just in art, which is a different thing.
Is it important for a beginner to memorize all the intervals, or just up until 5ths maybe?
Also what is the difference between a diminished 5th and a augmented 4th?
Quote from: Mozart on April 03, 2008, 07:19:15 PM
1 Is it important for a beginner to memorize all the intervals, or just up until 5ths maybe?
2 Also what is the difference between a diminished 5th and a augmented 4th?
1 All.
2 http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,6873.0.html
Quote from: Mozart on April 03, 2008, 07:19:15 PM
Is it important for a beginner to memorize all the intervals, or just up until 5ths maybe?
um...... yep. All 11 intervals.
Serial style is the best though: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
Quote from: Mozart on April 03, 2008, 07:19:15 PM
Also what is the difference between a diminished 5th and a augmented 4th?
hahahaha trying to be funny or did you miss the thread?