A sort of game.
Just for the fun of it, let's find the best and most inexpensive version of Beethoven's Ninth using only online CD stores (no free/pirated downloads, no eBay). What is "best" for the price? Well, we'll have to wait and see--after we fight about it for a while. ;)
Bohm's last 9th from Vienna has long been a huge favorite of mine. Very slow (almost 80 minutes exactly), but powerful.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31NDKGYVB8L._SL500_AA180_.jpg)
Amazon has used copies from $4.97. It's $9.98 retail.
Quote from: jwinter on April 24, 2008, 06:21:39 AM
Bohm's last 9th from Vienna has long been a huge favorite of mine. Very slow (almost 80 minutes exactly), but powerful.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31NDKGYVB8L._SL500_AA180_.jpg)
Amazon has used copies from $4.97. It's $9.98 retail.
Thanks for your entry!
I may have owned that in vinyl (it was Bohm and the Ninth; not sure about when it was recorded). It was the only classical vinyl I ever bought. They sure packaged them well back then; the one I had was in a nice box.
Here's the best, cheapest Beethoven 9th I've ever seen at Amazon:
Herbert Blomstedt, SK Dresden, : Karl-Heinz Stryczek, Edith Wiens, Reiner Goldberg, et al. It's got great singing, great orchestra, and wonderful sound and all for just 1¢ (US) at Amazon today!!!! If I didn't already have the set, I'd have one clicked it before posting this. :D
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/60/cc/f70e619009a08444e4c26110.L.jpg)
Quote from: Bunny on April 24, 2008, 06:46:00 AM
Here's the best, cheapest Beethoven 9th I've ever seen at Amazon:
Herbert Blomstedt, SK Dresden, : Karl-Heinz Stryczek, Edith Wiens, Reiner Goldberg, et al. It's got great singing, great orchestra, and wonderful sound and all for just 1¢ (US) at Amazon today!!!! If I didn't already have the set, I'd have one clicked it before posting this. :D
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/60/cc/f70e619009a08444e4c26110.L.jpg)
That didn't take long. :o
I love bargain hunting. 0:)
Quote from: Bunny on April 24, 2008, 06:50:38 AM
I love bargain hunting. 0:)
I was going to do a series of these threads, but maybe I should just give you my shopping list. ;D
when and if I've got time to burn.... ;)
Quote from: Bunny on April 24, 2008, 07:06:40 AM
when and if I've got time to burn.... ;)
Just kidding. I wouldn't do that to you...or anyone.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413JVHC6TPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Used and new from $15.98 online from Amazon and you also get an overture for the price.
The reason I think this is the best is:
A first movement full of drama effectively using that good old 'sturm und drang' LvB was known for.
A great scherzo with plenty of rhythmic fire
A slow movement that is not too slow but still sounds unhurried
A great choral movement with 4 excellent soloists. The use of D F-D as the baritone/bass is a tiur de force IMO
Overall, this has a very lean orchestral sound, almost like an HIP performance and while this is very important in the first movement it really serves to open up the choral singing which can sound very thick and muddy when the band doesn't give them room to breathe. Fricsay is one of a very few conductors to get this right.
Dave, do you remember Mark's old thread (or maybe mine) on really, really, really cheap CDs people find? I think a quick search will do the trick ... it was something like supersuperbudget discs.
Quote from: Bunny on April 24, 2008, 06:46:00 AM
Here's the best, cheapest Beethoven 9th I've ever seen at Amazon:
Herbert Blomstedt, SK Dresden, : Karl-Heinz Stryczek, Edith Wiens, Reiner Goldberg, et al. It's got great singing, great orchestra, and wonderful sound and all for just 1¢ (US) at Amazon today!!!! If I didn't already have the set, I'd have one clicked it before posting this. :D
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/60/cc/f70e619009a08444e4c26110.L.jpg)
Well, I DID click it before posting! :) I don't have the set and have heard good things about it, I just never got around to picking it up. But for $.01, even a lazy rascal like me can click once... :)
8)
Here's the old thread. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4431.0.html)
Quote from: Brian on April 24, 2008, 01:52:23 PM
Dave, do you remember Mark's old thread (or maybe mine) on really, really, really cheap CDs people find? I think a quick search will do the trick ... it was something like supersuperbudget discs.
Nope. :)
Quote from: Brian on April 24, 2008, 01:53:54 PM
Here's the old thread. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4431.0.html)
I see it.
http://www.classicalmusicmobile.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=64
Zubin Mehta's live 9th is fantastic, and $6.98 at Amazon.
A well-balanced 9th for $2.99 at Amazon.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513XK5YV5rL._SS500_.jpg)
Does that include postage? ;D
Quote from: MN Brahms on April 24, 2008, 06:29:00 PM
A well-balanced 9th for $2.99 at Amazon.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513XK5YV5rL._SS500_.jpg)
Hmm, best I see now is $4.18...
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2008, 07:52:14 AM
Hmm, best I see now is $4.18...
8)
Someone must have purchased that used one. I wonder if it was someone here.
Quote from: MN Brahms on April 25, 2008, 07:53:42 AM
Someone must have purchased that used one. I wonder if it was someone here.
:D
8)
Quote from: Hector on April 25, 2008, 06:18:22 AM
Does that include postage? ;D
Do you mean, should your LvB entry include postage? No.
Anyone have a suggestion for the worst and most expensive Beethoven 9th?
Quote from: Don on April 25, 2008, 08:54:05 AM
Anyone have a suggestion for the worst and most expensive Beethoven 9th?
It has probably just been released, whatever it is!
Quote from: MN Brahms on April 25, 2008, 08:38:48 AM
Happy listening, sir. :)
Thanks. That's 2 versions I have gotten from this thread. Let's not stop now... ;)
8)
This (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-No-9-Choral/dp/B00002MXNY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1209145846&sr=8-2) one is interesting if only for the fact that you can get all nine symphonies for just double the price. I have heard this Ninth and it is a very enjoyable (and controversial) interpretation. Modern instruments at HIP speeds, if I recall correctly.
Quote from: MN Brahms on April 25, 2008, 09:54:24 AM
This (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-No-9-Choral/dp/B00002MXNY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1209145846&sr=8-2) one is interesting if only for the fact that you can get all nine symphonies for just double the price. I have heard this Ninth and it is a very enjoyable (and controversial) interpretation. Modern instruments at HIP speeds, if I recall correctly.
That one IS interesting. The whole cycle is, in fact. I am really quite fond of MacKerras, moreso as time goes by and I hear others. His Mozart cycle kicks butt too. :)
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2008, 10:03:48 AM
That one IS interesting. The whole cycle is, in fact. I am really quite fond of MacKerras, moreso as time goes by and I hear others. His Mozart cycle kicks butt too. :)
8)
Yes, my mandatory Eine Kleine Nachtmusik disc is on Telarc by Mackerras and Prague.
Kegel and Dresden - 99 cents
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-No-9-Choral/dp/B000001VJW/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1209146965&sr=8-5
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2008, 10:03:48 AM
That one IS interesting. The whole cycle is, in fact. I am really quite fond of MacKerras, moreso as time goes by and I hear others. His Mozart cycle kicks butt too. :)
8)
Thanks for alerting me to the Mackerras Beethoven cycle. I'm listening to all the Amazon clips, and it is really sounding like Mackerras has exactly the same idea of Beethoven's Ninth that I do. The bass'
O freunde passage at the start of the vocal finale is simply revelatory - and I'm stunned to hear that he apparently likes the slow movement as brisk as I do...
Added most urgently to the shopping cart. 8)
I'm not sure anyone has beaten Bunny's one cent-er, but at least people are finding this thread useful otherwise.
I have a few quibbles with the final movement, but overall this is a grand version. And the devil wants you to have it for only $6.66.
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-No-Donald-Gramm/dp/B000003FJS/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1209148653&sr=8-12
Quote from: MN Brahms on April 25, 2008, 10:39:38 AM
I have a few quibbles with the final movement, but overall this is a grand version. And the devil wants you to have it for only $6.66.
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-No-Donald-Gramm/dp/B000003FJS/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1209148653&sr=8-12
Yes, that is on my list, should I desire more LvB 9ths.
Quote from: George on April 25, 2008, 01:42:32 PM
Yes, that is on my list, should I desire more LvB 9ths.
I find that Reiner hits the spot quite often. 0:)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2008, 10:03:48 AM
That one IS interesting. The whole cycle is, in fact. I am really quite fond of MacKerras, moreso as time goes by and I hear others. His Mozart cycle kicks butt too. :)
8)
Forget the cycle with the RLPO. That is a musically completely mediocre product, a harsh disappointment coming from someone as knowledgeable about the music of that period as Mackerras. Fortunately, he "corrected" himself in his live performances in Edinburgh with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra and the Philharmonia, and fortunately, these performances are also available on CD now. They are musically vastly better than the RLPO recordings.
Quote from: M forever on April 25, 2008, 07:31:30 PM
Forget the cycle with the RLPO. That is a musically completely mediocre product, a harsh disappointment coming from someone as knowledgeable about the music of that period as Mackerras. Fortunately, he "corrected" himself in his live performances in Edinburgh with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra and the Philharmonia, and fortunately, these performances are also available on CD now. They are musically vastly better than the RLPO recordings.
I'm very much interested in acquiring one of these, so if you like, please do tell more. :)
Quote from: M forever on April 25, 2008, 07:31:30 PM
Forget the cycle with the RLPO. That is a musically completely mediocre product, a harsh disappointment coming from someone as knowledgeable about the music of that period as Mackerras. Fortunately, he "corrected" himself in his live performances in Edinburgh with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra and the Philharmonia, and fortunately, these performances are also available on CD now. They are musically vastly better than the RLPO recordings.
Aha! Thank you for confirming a hunch I had about that RLPO cycle, which I deliberately left on the shelves on more than one occasion. But having the Edinburgh one, and liking it quite a lot, I was somehow wondering if it would be worth buying.
But that probably settles it; or to be more precise, I'll take your word for this one,
M. :)
Quote from: Renfield on April 26, 2008, 09:52:29 AM
Aha! Thank you for confirming a hunch I had about that RLPO cycle, which I deliberately left on the shelves on more than one occasion. But having the Edinburgh one, and liking it quite a lot, I was somehow wondering if it would be worth buying.
But that probably settles it; or to be more precise, I'll take your word for this one, M. :)
I don't know. That RLPO Ninth was pretty popular back in the day. Though I assume the more current cycle sounds better. Are the tempos similar between the cycles?
I wouldn't assume that the sound is better just because it is more recent (remember, as the Americans like to say, "if you assume, you make an ass out of you and me"). Some recordings made 40 years ago sound better than some made yesterday.
I have only heard the Edniburgh cycle in mediocre radio broadcast quality (from Operashare), so I can't judge how good the sound is on the CDs. But the broadcasts sounded basically fairly good, they were just too compressed. I haven't compared all the tempi side-by-side, but generally, Mackerras stays fairly close to the metronome markings. The newer cycle is not that different in *conception*, but it is vastly batter in *execution*. The playing of the RLPO is OK but neither particularly stylish nor sonorous nor "idiomatic" (whatever that may mean) nor, and that is the biggest "problem", is it really "eloquent" in the sense of musical rhetorics which is so enormously important in this music. And which Mackerras understands very well. That is why I was so puzzled by this musically flat, nondescript, shallow and inarticulate music making. Not that one always "has" to have "something special to say" but particularly when it comes to this music, it is so overplayed including by a lot of people who don't really have a good understanding of it, if some records the 758th complete Beethoven symphonies cycle, there should be *some* reason for people to have it. With Mackerras RLPO cycle, there is none. But the Edinburgh performances are much better and much more "eloquent" and "interesting".
Quote from: Brian on April 25, 2008, 07:37:35 PM
I'm very much interested in acquiring one of these, so if you like, please do tell more. :)
Do you already have the Harnoncourt cycle? I see you have been listening to Norrington's more recent recordings from Stuttgart, but have you also heard the earlier ones from London (on "period instruments")?
Quote from: M forever on April 26, 2008, 01:20:13 PM
I wouldn't assume that the sound is better just because it is more recent (remember, as the Americans like to say, "if you assume, you make an ass out of you and me"). Some recordings made 40 years ago sound better than some made yesterday.
True. I only meant that some people have complained about the sound on the RLPO cycle.
Thanks for the heads-up, M.
Quote from: M forever on April 26, 2008, 01:20:13 PM
Do you already have the Harnoncourt cycle? I see you have been listening to Norrington's more recent recordings from Stuttgart, but have you also heard the earlier ones from London (on "period instruments")?
No, and no; I have but one Beethoven cycle on disc at the moment (Karajan '62), although I have discs from Vanska, Hogwood [period instruments], and a few others.
Quote from: Brian on April 26, 2008, 02:11:16 PM
No, and no; I have but one Beethoven cycle on disc at the moment (Karajan '62), although I have discs from Vanska, Hogwood [period instruments], and a few others.
Then first and foremost, you need to listen to the
other Karajan 9ths! ;D
Kidding. Although the '77 Karajan is one of my favourite non-Furtwängler Beethoven 9ths. In fact, since I brought him up, you should definitely listen to Furtwängler's 1942 9th, if you want a 9th of the ravishing go-for-the-thoat variety.
Although your issue with the
slow movement is probably a Karajan thing, given how he plods in it, ca. 1962. He improved it, later.
(That's part of why I asked about the 9ths you know, in the other thread. :))
End of digression. I might refresh the Edinburgh Mackerras cycle in my memory, tonight. Thanks for the inspiration! :D
Quote from: Brian on April 26, 2008, 02:11:16 PM
No, and no; I have but one Beethoven cycle on disc at the moment (Karajan '62), although I have discs from Vanska, Hogwood [period instruments], and a few others.
Then you should get Harnoncourt and Norrington 1 first. Good as Mackerras' Edinburgh cycle is, these have more to offer to you at the point you are at. Avoid the many, many pseudo-HIP cycles out there (e.g. Mackerras' still puzzlingly bland RLPO cycle, Zinman, Gardiner, and some of the other half-baked "rethought" stuff like Haitink's LSO cycle, they are all well done but not really interesting and insightful at all; what distinguishes them is really only how consequently they all avoid to find confident answers to the mind-bogglingly complex task of Beethoven interpretation). Or if you want, you can waste your time with these later.
Hogwood is already a really good HIP cycle to have, more adventurous and investigating than many others. More "honest", too, I think.
I think you should still be able to sample the Mackerras' recordings on Operashare, if you have access there, although the sound quality wasn't so great on these live broadcast recordings.
There is also a live recording with the COE and Harnoncourt of the 5th from last year which is even better than the recording included in their cycle. This performance is simply astonishing, in fact, I would say it is probably "the best" Beethoven 5 I have ever heard (including Kleiber's even), but unfortunately, the sound is totally screwed up, so I am hunting for a better source for this now.
I don't see why you would want to have the Vänskä stuff though. They are quite nice (from what I have heard so far) and in good "modern" sound, but there is so much "conventional" Beethoven out there with far more distinguished and stylish playing and more characterful interpretation.
Quote from: MN Brahms on April 26, 2008, 01:27:39 PM
True. I only meant that some people have complained about the sound on the RLPO cycle.
Do you remember what those complaints were? I thought the sound was OK, if not exactly "spectacular".
Quote from: M forever on April 26, 2008, 03:11:35 PM
I don't see why you would want to have the Vänskä stuff though. They are quite nice (from what I have heard so far) and in good "modern" sound, but there is so much "conventional" Beethoven out there with far more distinguished and stylish playing and more characterful interpretation.
Yes, there are.
However, Vänskä's Beethoven (and his conducting in general) possesses a very exceptional rhythmic acuteness, to my ears.
And more so, the minimalist aesthetic he tends to apply to pieces that can otherwise (and often) sound opulent in other hands (see: Kleiber Jr.) does have its appeal. Of course, I'm not saying opulent is wrong: but Vänskä certainly embodies the "lean" aesthetic. :)
(Even more than Harnoncourt. Or in a different manner.)
Quote from: M forever on April 26, 2008, 03:11:35 PM
Do you remember what those complaints were? I thought the sound was OK, if not exactly "spectacular".
Nothing specific, sorry. I think Harry had made a complaint about the set as well, however I can't remember exactly what the problem was.
Quote from: M forever on April 26, 2008, 03:11:35 PM
Then you should get Harnoncourt and Norrington 1 first. Good as Mackerras' Edinburgh cycle is, these have more to offer to you at the point you are at. Avoid the many, many pseudo-HIP cycles out there (e.g. Mackerras' still puzzlingly bland RLPO cycle, Zinman, Gardiner, and some of the other half-baked "rethought" stuff like Haitink's LSO cycle, they are all well done but not really interesting and insightful at all; what distinguishes them is really only how consequently they all avoid to find confident answers to the mind-bogglingly complex task of Beethoven interpretation). Or if you want, you can waste your time with these later.
Hogwood is already a really good HIP cycle to have, more adventurous and investigating than many others. More "honest", too, I think.
I will definitely heed your advice regarding pseudo-HIPs: use of old-fashioned performance practices does not necessarily equate to an understanding of how to use them. As I'd been quite taken with the Norrington 2 over in the listening thread - have been hearing it on Naxos Music Library, streamed at 64kbps - I purchased the Eroica disc. Any particular reason I should be more interested in his first cycle, with the London players? Others' reviews seem to think the new cycle generally has more accomplished playing, at least.
Quote
I think you should still be able to sample the Mackerras' recordings on Operashare, if you have access there, although the sound quality wasn't so great on these live broadcast recordings.
Alas, I do not.
QuoteI don't see why you would want to have the Vänskä stuff though. They are quite nice (from what I have heard so far) and in good "modern" sound, but there is so much "conventional" Beethoven out there with far more distinguished and stylish playing and more characterful interpretation.
This seems a fairly apt description. And this is also why the Norrington/Stuttgart caught me by surprise on first listen - my experience with this new, rather savage, ferocious, Beethoven outside the interpretive "mainstream" has been quite enlightening. :)
Quote from: Brian on April 27, 2008, 03:33:31 PM
Any particular reason I should be more interested in his first cycle, with the London players?
Yes. Because it really is a very adventurous and daring cycle. And because I say so.
Quote from: Brian on April 27, 2008, 03:33:31 PM
Others' reviews seem to think the new cycle generally has more accomplished playing, at least.
Bull. The LCP's playing is very highly accomplished.
Quote from: Brian on April 27, 2008, 03:33:31 PM
Any particular reason I should be more interested in his first cycle, with the London players? Others' reviews seem to think the new cycle generally has more accomplished playing, at least.
Because it's a really neat (and cheap) :) I ditched mine after the bad feedback it has gotten, but M's constant advocacy made me rebuy and give it a better listen - and it's great fun.
Quote from: Lethe on April 27, 2008, 10:10:54 PM
Because it's a really neat (and cheap) :) I ditched mine after the bad feedback it has gotten, but M's constant advocacy made me rebuy and give it a better listen - and it's great fun.
I'll third the motion. :)
It really is "neat". Although now I'm itching to Norrington's other cycle, too, after I found out it exists. :P
Purchased the Norrington/London cycle today. Should be here in a week. :) Thanks all for the recommendations and especially M!
Renfield - my experiences with Nos 3 and 9 suggest that if you like your Beethoven on the daring side you'll love the new cycle. :)
Quote from: Brian on April 28, 2008, 09:50:47 AM
Renfield - my experiences with Nos 3 and 9 suggest that if you like your Beethoven on the daring side you'll love the new cycle. :)
I like my Beethoven on
every side (I really like my Beethoven :P), but given how I enjoyed Norrington's particular type of daring in the London Classical Players cycle, I think I
will love the new one. Many thanks for bringing it to my attention. :D
No love expressed for The Hanover Band's cycle? Under $15 new at amazon.com marketplace. :-*
Listen, if you want the cheapest cycle and not care one iota for quality then I recommend this one:
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/0c/7a/5bdc729fd7a0729c4128f010._AA240_.L.jpg)
They used to give it out for free when you suscribe to MHS about 10 years ago. Now you can get the complete set for a cool $0.98 plus postage at Amazon marketplace.
We care. We want bang for the buck. ;D
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 28, 2008, 04:02:08 PM
Listen, if you want the cheapest cycle and not care one iota for quality then I recommend this one:
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/0c/7a/5bdc729fd7a0729c4128f010._AA240_.L.jpg)
They used to give it out for free when you suscribe to MHS about 10 years ago. Now you can get the complete set for a cool $0.98 plus postage at Amazon marketplace.
Would that be because it doesn't have 6, 8 or 9?
Quote from: Brian on April 28, 2008, 04:40:07 PM
Would that be because it doesn't have 6, 8 or 9?
Hmmm, when I bought it it case with 6, 8 or 9. The performances are not really distinguished but are not by any means bad.
No, you can see that this is Vol. I. It must have been packed like Karajan '63, 3 disks in one box and 2 in the other. It appears to be City of Birmingham. Who's leading?
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Violin Concerti - Perlman - Vienna PO / Levine Itzhak Perlman - K 218 Violin Concerto #4 in D 2nd mvmt - Andante cantabile
Yeah, volume II is also available cheap (like a couple of bucks I think). Walter Weller (aka former concertmaster of the Vienna Philharmonic) leads the City of Birmingham Sym. Orch. which was an original Chandos release I think.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 28, 2008, 05:22:40 PM
Yeah, volume II is also available cheap (like a couple of bucks I think). Walter Weller (aka former concertmaster of the Vienna Philharmonic) leads the City of Birmingham Sym. Orch. which was an original Chandos release I think.
Ah, not that it matters, but he is unknown to me. Perhaps he cemented his rep as a conductor with this effort... :)
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Vienna PO / Muti - Haydn 7 Last Words for Orchestra pt 1 Introduction
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2008, 05:27:11 PM
Ah, not that it matters, but he is unknown to me. Perhaps he cemented his rep as a conductor with this effort... :)8)
----------------
Listening to:
Vienna PO / Muti - Haydn 7 Last Words for Orchestra pt 1 Introduction
Doubtful I think. I have symphonies 1 and 3 and 2 and 5 (I sold the original complete set) when gohastings messed up my order last year. If anyone in the US wants it I will give it to you for free.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 28, 2008, 05:47:10 PM
Doubtful I think. I have symphonies 1 and 3 and 2 and 5 (I sold the original complete set) when gohastings messed up my order last year. If anyone in the US wants it I will give it to you for free.
;D No, I meant cemented in the negative sense. :)
Well, you just beat the cheapest (which I bought for $0.01), now all we have to do is find the perfect synthesis between cheap and good and Minnesota Dave will finally be able to sleep contented tonight... ;)
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Vienna PO / Muti - Haydn 7 Last Words for Orchestra pt 6 Sonata V
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2008, 06:06:10 PM
;D No, I meant cemented in the negative sense. :)
Well, you just beat the cheapest (which I bought for $0.01), now all we have to do is find the perfect synthesis between cheap and good and Minnesota Dave will finally be able to sleep contented tonight... ;)
This thread is still here?
;D
Quote from: MN Brahms on April 28, 2008, 06:07:41 PM
This thread is still here?
;D
Oh, Threadmaster, wherefore art thou? ::)
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Wiener Symphoniker / Sanderling Sviatoslav Richter - K 466 Piano Concerto #20 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro
Anyone can give a brief review and recommend or condemn this recording? :)
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/92/929678.jpg)
See it here (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=56909)
Thanks in advance.
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Schumann Works for Piano - Wilhelm Kempff - Schumann Fantasie in C for Piano Op 17
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2008, 06:06:58 PM
Anyone can give a brief review and recommend or condemn this recording? :)
At $31, it better be damn good ..........
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2008, 06:06:58 PM
Thanks in advance.
Blah blah blah ........
Quote from: Dm on May 03, 2008, 06:18:24 PM
At $31, it better be damn good ..........
Maybe it qualifies for Don's request for a recommendation of the worst and most expensive Beethoven 9th?
Quote from: Dm on May 03, 2008, 06:18:24 PM
At $31, it better be damn good ..........
Blah blah blah ........
That's the fact,
d. I usually plunge off into the murky depths without aid of anyone's experience. But at that price... although it can be had in the Marketplace for $18... :-\
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Schumann Works for Piano - Wilhelm Kempff - Schumann "Waldszenen" Op 82
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 03, 2008, 06:21:11 PM
Maybe it qualifies for Don's request for a recommendation of the worst and most expensive Beethoven 9th?
That's what I'm afraid of. :)
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Schumann Works for Piano - Wilhelm Kempff - Schumann Waldszenen Op 82
If you know how to use the "internet", you can get it for far less, for instance from amazon.com. I highly recommend this recording, not just because I am a big fan of this orchestra-conductor combination in general which however doesn't mean that I like everything they did - and there is actually a fairly weak and disappointing Beethoven 9 from a live concert in Japan with these forces on video -, but because it is musically very impressive. This is a fairly "big" reading but at the same time it is concentrated and compact, the first movement in particular has a driven quality which fits the music very well and sets the tone for a very affirmative performance. This is the 9th more like Beethoven intended - a dramatic narrative from chaos to joy - than a solemn piece of music played on ïmportant occasions". Sinopoli doesn't care for "HIP" or "non-HIP", he just conducts the music very straightforward without really any vain or self-conscious fussing about how it is done "right", so you could call his approach "classicist" but it has none of the "pseudo-HIPness" a lot of the "classicists" apply to their interpretations these days. Like I said, this is a rather "big" reading but the rhythmical tightness and springiness with which they play and the enormous tonal flexibility and musically detailedness the orchestra displays make this a musically very satisfying and rather individual performance among a sea of mediocre contributions from conductors whose Beethoven we really don't need.
Quote from: M forever on May 04, 2008, 12:42:41 PM
If you know how to use the "internet", you can get it for far less, for instance from amazon.com. I highly recommend this recording, not just because I am a big fan of this orchestra-conductor combination in general which however doesn't mean that I like everything they did - and there is actually a fairly weak and disappointing Beethoven 9 from a live concert in Japan with these forces on video -, but because it is musically very impressive. This is a fairly "big" reading but at the same time it is concentrated and compact, the first movement in particular has a driven quality which fits the music very well and sets the tone for a very affirmative performance. This is the 9th more like Beethoven intended - a dramatic narrative from chaos to joy - than a solemn piece of music played on ïmportant occasions". Sinopoli doesn't care for "HIP" or "non-HIP", he just conducts the music very straightforward without really any vain or self-conscious fussing about how it is done "right", so you could call his approach "classicist" but it has none of the "pseudo-HIPness" a lot of the "classicists" apply to their interpretations these days. Like I said, this is a rather "big" reading but the rhythmical tightness and springiness with which they play and the enormous tonal flexibility and musically detailedness the orchestra displays make this a musically very satisfying and rather individual performance among a sea of mediocre contributions from conductors whose Beethoven we really don't need.
M,
I was hoping you would answer here. I know you are very familiar with both Sinopoli (which I am not) AND Staatskapelle Dresden (who I greatly admire). I'm not so concerned about getting it cheap: more about whether I should get it at all. As I mentioned earlier, it is available for as little as $18 on Amazon Marketplace, so that's a lot more reasonable. But the one review of it there was a mixed message, that's why I was wanting more info. And now I have it. Thanks. :)
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Beethoven - Piano Concertos Nos 1 & 3 - Norrköping SO / Parrott Brautigam - Op 015 Concerto #1 in C for Pianoforte 1st mvmt - Allegro con brio
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 04, 2008, 03:30:14 PM
M,
I was hoping you would answer here. I know you are very familiar with both Sinopoli (which I am not) AND Staatskapelle Dresden (who I greatly admire). I'm not so concerned about getting it cheap: more about whether I should get it at all. As I mentioned earlier, it is available for as little as $18 on Amazon Marketplace, so that's a lot more reasonable. But the one review of it there was a mixed message, that's why I was wanting more info. And now I have it. Thanks. :)
Well, according to M it's "big" and "compact." Seems ideal then for almost any taste. I don't know about you, but I'm sold ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2008, 03:44:22 PM
Well, according to M it's "big" and "compact." Seems ideal then for almost any taste. I don't know about you, but I'm sold ;D
Sarge
These are the sorts of anomalies that make music performance interesting, don'tcha think? :) Still, as a concept I can grasp the meaning even though literally it seems confusing.
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Beethoven - Piano Concertos Nos 1 & 3 - Norrköping SO / Parrott Brautigam - Op 015 Concerto #1 in C for Pianoforte 2nd mvmt - Largo - 3rd mvmt - Rondo: Allegro
By "big" I meant that he uses a large orchestra and lets it play like a large orchestra. No pseudo-classicism there. By "compact" I mean that the sound and playing, as "big" as it is, is very defined and concentrated, precise and to the point, not the kind of "lush" and soft edged "big band" sound some conductors would seek (e.g. Thielemann).
What that one reviewer on amazon doesn't get is that what makes this recording so good is not the concept as such - there are many different concepts which can make sense. What makes it so good is the quality of the playing and music making.
Quote from: M forever on May 04, 2008, 04:30:26 PM
By "big" I meant that he uses a large orchestra and lets it play like a large orchestra. No pseudo-classicism there. By "compact" I mean that the sound and playing, as "big" as it is, is very defined and concentrated, precise and to the point, not the kind of "lush" and soft edged "big band" sound some conductors would seek (e.g. Thielemann).
Thank you for the clarification, M. Your original was the type of review you often scorn but in fact it's simply that the reviewer doesn't have the time, or the space, to elaborate. Damn concision, damn it to hell.
In any case, you know if Sinopoli is on the cover, I'm automatically sold...especially if he's conducting the Dresden.
Sarge
I like short and to-the-point reviews, if they make sense and are "true", I am just not very good at them, unfortunately. But I think one has to at least try to explain one's opinion, "it's great, you should buy it" is just not very informative.
Quote from: M forever on May 04, 2008, 04:48:21 PM
I like short and to-the-point reviews, if they make sense and are "true", I am just not very good at them, unfortunately. But I think one has to at least try to explain one's opinion, "it's great, you should buy it" is just not very informative.
Me too. Simple question, understandable answer. BTW, your explanation jibes up precisely with what I thought you meant. Actually, that reviewer seemed far more concerned with the sound reproduction than the performance. Performance is ALWAYS more important. Outstanding sound is a bonus. :)
Thanks again,
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Beethoven - Piano Concertos Nos 1 & 3 - Norrköping SO / Parrott Brautigam - Op 015 Concerto #1 in C for Pianoforte 2nd mvmt - Largo - 3rd mvmt - Rondo: Allegro
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 04, 2008, 05:00:30 PM
Me too. Simple question, understandable answer. BTW, your explanation jibes up precisely with what I thought you meant. Actually, that reviewer seemed far more concerned with the sound reproduction than the performance. Performance is ALWAYS more important. Outstanding sound is a bonus. :)
Thanks again,
8)
The "problem" with the sound is that it was recorded live in the Semperoper, so the sound is drier, a little more "muffled" and also a little "flatter'' than the bright, reverberant, deeply resonant sound typically heard on recordings made in the Lukaskirche. But it helps make the sound "compact" and defined and it's really not too dry.
While you are ordering this, get this, too:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZPAGEXKXL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
This is
phenomenally good. I think it is one of the best CDs I have ever heard. I won't even try to describe just how good it is because I know I can't. Sinopoli's approach here is basically the same as with Beethoven, straightforward, no-nonsense, "big" and expressive but to-the-point and played with the kind of refined and at the same time robust tone only the SD can produce in that quality, and very "idiomatically", in a singing way. But they don't hold back at all. The brass can be very raspy in the right places. This is my favorite recording of the Great C Major Symphony, by far. You can also hear the close links between Schubert and Bruckner here more clearly than in many other interpretations.
Recorded "in studio" in the Lukaskirche, BTW, and the sound is outstanding.
Quote from: M forever on May 04, 2008, 05:21:34 PM
The "problem" with the sound is that it was recorded live in the Semperoper, so the sound is drier, a little more "muffled" and also a little "flatter'' than the bright, reverberant, deeply resonant sound typically heard on recordings made in the Lukaskirche. But it helps make the sound "compact" and defined and it's really not too dry.
While you are ordering this, get this, too:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZPAGEXKXL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
This is phenomenally good. I think it is one of the best CDs I have ever heard. I won't even try to describe just how good it is because I know I can't. Sinopoli's approach here is basically the same as with Beethoven, straightforward, no-nonsense, "big" and expressive but to-the-point and played with the kind of refined and at the same time robust tone only the SD can produce in that quality, and very "idiomatically", in a singing way. But they don't hold back at all. The brass can be very raspy in the right places. This is my favorite recording of the Great C Major Symphony, by far. You can also hear the close links between Schubert and Bruckner here more clearly than in many other interpretations.
Recorded "in studio" in the Lukaskirche, BTW, and the sound is outstanding.
Ah, I was wondering if that might not be the case.
I am trying to introduce myself to "new to me" conductors, and Sinopoli just caught my fancy, thanks in part to you and Sarge having mentioned him many times. So the Schubert will certainly go on my list also, as it seems it is a great representation of his work, as well as being among the top of my favorite music. I know I must have mentioned this before, but chamber music and solo keyboard have always been my favorite genres, I have a long way to go with orchestral music before I am ready to play "Mystery Orchestra". :D
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Beethoven - Piano Concertos Nos 1 & 3 - Norrköping SO / Parrott Brautigam - Op 037 Concerto #3 in c for Pianoforte 1st mvmt - Allegro con brio
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61oPXrYFsvL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I hope everyone here is aware that the album can be downloaded from DG (http://www2.deutschegrammophon.com/cat/result?COMP_ID=&sort=newest_rec&ALBUM_TYPE=&SearchString=sinopoli+beethoven&IN_SERIES=&ART_ID=&IN_XXAWARDS=&PRODUCT_NR=4534232&start=0&IN_XXSERIES=&IN_XXPQ=&MOZART_22=0&GENRE=&per_page=10) at 320 kbps MP3 for $10.99! That is considerably cheaper than the price at Arkivmusic, and is also competitive with the price at Amazon.
Quote from: Bunny on May 06, 2008, 07:25:27 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61oPXrYFsvL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I hope everyone here is aware that the album can be downloaded from DG (http://www2.deutschegrammophon.com/cat/result?COMP_ID=&sort=newest_rec&ALBUM_TYPE=&SearchString=sinopoli+beethoven&IN_SERIES=&ART_ID=&IN_XXAWARDS=&PRODUCT_NR=4534232&start=0&IN_XXSERIES=&IN_XXPQ=&MOZART_22=0&GENRE=&per_page=10) at 320 kbps MP3 for $10.99! That is considerably cheaper than the price at Arkivmusic, and is also competitive with the price at Amazon.
Well, I wasn't. Thanks for that info, Bunny. :)
8)
Good hunting!
Quote from: Bunny on May 06, 2008, 07:25:27 AM
I hope everyone here is aware that the album can be downloaded from DG (http://www2.deutschegrammophon.com/cat/result?COMP_ID=&sort=newest_rec&ALBUM_TYPE=&SearchString=sinopoli+beethoven&IN_SERIES=&ART_ID=&IN_XXAWARDS=&PRODUCT_NR=4534232&start=0&IN_XXSERIES=&IN_XXPQ=&MOZART_22=0&GENRE=&per_page=10) at 320 kbps MP3 for $10.99! That is considerably cheaper than the price at Arkivmusic, and is also competitive with the price at Amazon.
Although it has been shown in blind tests that 320kbps is so close to the original that it is really hard to tell a difference, I am very disappointed that DG don't offer an uncompressed download solution in addition - formats like FLAC or APE compress the signal losslessly and quite effectively and bandwidth or storage space aren't really a problem anymore in this age of high speed internet connections and ever dropping memory prices. As far as I am concerned, I would rather spend a few $ more and have the original disc with the original artwork.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 04, 2008, 05:32:33 PM
I am trying to introduce myself to "new to me" conductors, and Sinopoli just caught my fancy, thanks in part to you and Sarge having mentioned him many times. So the Schubert will certainly go on my list also, as it seems it is a great representation of his work, as well as being among the top of my favorite music. I know I must have mentioned this before, but chamber music and solo keyboard have always been my favorite genres, I have a long way to go with orchestral music before I am ready to play "Mystery Orchestra". :D
You are ready to play "Mystery Orchestra" now (apart from the fact that right now, I don't have much time to spend for that, plus most of my CDs are still packed up from my recent move across the continent). As I never tire of saying, guessing the performers is only part, and probably the least "important" part of the "game". The blind discussion is what makes it really interesting and fun and where we all learn the most, and to give your impressions and participate in the discussion, you don't have to have an "encyclopedic knowledge" of orchestral and performance styles. Just good musical common sense is enough!
There is indeed a lot of good stuff from Sinopoli out there that I can highly recommend. IMO, Sinopoli was an outstanding conductor and it is a great tragedy that he passed away so early. I know he was quite "controversial" because he liked to do things in a different way and questioned many traditional views, the critics in London loved to hate him but the "reality" is, the Philharmonia played and sounded phenomenally under him. Sinopoli had a very fine sense of color and balance as well as the expressive quality of sound substance. He often managed to open up the textures of complex orchestral pieces and "shine light" into them. Many of his performances of complex late-romantic repertoire "illuminated" the music from within and created complex musical soundscapes which were fascinating to listen to and explore as a listener. He also had a very through understanding of musical style, so all that taken together made him and the Staatskapelle Dresden, an orchestra with a particularly rich and complex sonority and very distinguished playing style, an ideal match which produced some quite unique results. Contrary to some who attested him a lack of professionality and dwelled on the fact that he did not get along very well with some orchestras earlier in his career, many orchestral musicians, in particular in Dresden and also at the Deutsche Oper in Berlin where he conducted often during the 80s and where he collapsed on the podium that fateful night had a lot of respect for his craftsmanship. I also had the opportunity to play Mahler 1 under him once and was very impressed by how well prepared he was and how clear his concept was and how he worked very meticulouslyand professionally towards realizing his idea of the music.
Quote from: M forever on May 06, 2008, 10:06:29 AM
There is indeed a lot of good stuff from Sinopoli out there that I can highly recommend. IMO, Sinopoli was an outstanding conductor and it is a great tragedy that he passed away so early. I know he was quite "controversial" because he liked to do things in a different way and questioned many traditional views, the critics in London loved to hate him but the "reality" is, the Philharmonia played and sounded phenomenally under him. Sinopoli had a very fine sense of color and balance as well as the expressive quality of sound substance. He often managed to open up the textures of complex orchestral pieces and "shine light" into them. Many of his performances of complex late-romantic repertoire "illuminated" the music from within and created complex musical soundscapes which were fascinating to listen to and explore as a listener. He also had a very through understanding of musical style, so all that taken together made him and the Staatskapelle Dresden, an orchestra with a particularly rich and complex sonority and very distinguished playing style, an ideal match which produced some quite unique results. Contrary to some who attested him a lack of professionality and dwelled on the fact that he did not get along very well with some orchestras earlier in his career, many orchestral musicians, in particular in Dresden and also at the Deutsche Oper in Berlin where he conducted often during the 80s and where he collapsed on the podium that fateful night had a lot of respect for his craftsmanship. I also had the opportunity to play Mahler 1 under him once and was very impressed by how well prepared he was and how clear his concept was and how he worked very meticulouslyand professionally towards realizing his idea of the music.
An exceptional
individual. A man for all seasons.
His scientific leanings probably had much to do with his detailed preparedness and execution.
I usually found his readings more analytical than musical. Though not my preference, they were always worth listening to.
R.I.P.
Quote from: M forever on May 06, 2008, 10:06:29 AM
Although it has been shown in blind tests that 320kbps is so close to the original that it is really hard to tell a difference, I am very disappointed that DG don't offer an uncompressed download solution in addition - formats like FLAC or APE compress the signal losslessly and quite effectively and bandwidth or storage space aren't really a problem anymore in this age of high speed internet connections and ever dropping memory prices. As far as I am concerned, I would rather spend a few $ more and have the original disc with the original artwork.
[...]
I'm sure that "lossless" downloads will become available in the near future. There are already some record labels (Linn records, for instance) who are selling master tape quality downloads! I'm sure DG will want to be competitive, as will Itunes and even Amazon. As demand grows, so will the market.
I recently purchased some of DG's Al Fresco titles which are sold without liners or librettos, I found a web address, instructions and a password inside the albums to to download all of the texts. I would guess that DG supplies texts and graphics as a download when you buy from their online store for their regular MP3 titles. As for the sound quality of the Sinopoli Beethoven, I listened to a track or two and it sounded pretty good to me.
Sinopoli's Mahler 2 has no emotion.
Quote from: Bunny on May 06, 2008, 11:44:53 AM
I'm sure that "lossless" downloads will become available in the near future. There are already some record labels (Linn records, for instance) who are selling master tape quality downloads! I'm sure DG will want to be competitive, as will Itunes and even Amazon. As demand grows, so will the market.
I recently purchased some of DG's Al Fresco titles which are sold without liners or librettos, I found a web address, instructions and a password inside the albums to to download all of the texts. I would guess that DG supplies texts and graphics as a download when you buy from their online store for their regular MP3 titles. As for the sound quality of the Sinopoli Beethoven, I listened to a track or two and it sounded pretty good to me.
You usually get the album artwork, but PDF booklets come only with certain releases (mostly the newer stuff). Also, not every release is gapless. They seem to have corrected that issue, as - when I bought the 1962 Vienna
Fidelio by Karajan - I found that it had gapless playback.
Or maybe you upgraded your mp3 player to a version which supports gapless playback? A lot of them didn't have that until fairly recently.
Quote from: M forever on May 06, 2008, 10:06:29 AM
You are ready to play "Mystery Orchestra" now (apart from the fact that right now, I don't have much time to spend for that, plus most of my CDs are still packed up from my recent move across the continent). As I never tire of saying, guessing the performers is only part, and probably the least "important" part of the "game". The blind discussion is what makes it really interesting and fun and where we all learn the most, and to give your impressions and participate in the discussion, you don't have to have an "encyclopedic knowledge" of orchestral and performance styles. Just good musical common sense is enough!
Well, I suppose if I can overcome my basic shyness, I could have a shot at it whenever you are ready. Since naming the orchestra will likely never be my goal anyway. :)
QuoteThere is indeed a lot of good stuff from Sinopoli out there that I can highly recommend. IMO, Sinopoli was an outstanding conductor and it is a great tragedy that he passed away so early. I know he was quite "controversial" because he liked to do things in a different way and questioned many traditional views, the critics in London loved to hate him but the "reality" is, the Philharmonia played and sounded phenomenally under him. Sinopoli had a very fine sense of color and balance as well as the expressive quality of sound substance. He often managed to open up the textures of complex orchestral pieces and "shine light" into them. Many of his performances of complex late-romantic repertoire "illuminated" the music from within and created complex musical soundscapes which were fascinating to listen to and explore as a listener. He also had a very through understanding of musical style, so all that taken together made him and the Staatskapelle Dresden, an orchestra with a particularly rich and complex sonority and very distinguished playing style, an ideal match which produced some quite unique results. Contrary to some who attested him a lack of professionality and dwelled on the fact that he did not get along very well with some orchestras earlier in his career, many orchestral musicians, in particular in Dresden and also at the Deutsche Oper in Berlin where he conducted often during the 80s and where he collapsed on the podium that fateful night had a lot of respect for his craftsmanship. I also had the opportunity to play Mahler 1 under him once and was very impressed by how well prepared he was and how clear his concept was and how he worked very meticulously and professionally towards realizing his idea of the music.
I really have no problem with individuality in interpretation, as long as the result remains musically cohesive, and avoids what i think of as grotesqueness; like great amounts of rubato for example. There may well be a place for this, but not in music of the era that I prefer (1750-1850 with some Brahms, Tchaikovsky and Dvorak thrown in). But driving a hot machine like the Dresdeners, it would be a shame not to maximize their potential for first class playing.
The Schubert is in the mail, should be here Tuesday or Wednesday. I think I will take Bunny's tip and download the Beethoven. After that, I would like to try some music I am less familiar with, maybe early 20th century (but not Mahler, please!). Any recs for Strauss or something similar by these forces would be appreciated. :)
8)
----------------
Listening to:
L'Archibudelli / Immerseel - Bia 455-1 Op 70 #1 Trio #4 in D for Piano & Strings 3rd mvmt - Presto
Quote from: M forever on May 09, 2008, 03:22:44 PM
Or maybe you upgraded your mp3 player to a version which supports gapless playback? A lot of them didn't have that until fairly recently.
No, sir. Same player over both intervals. It supported gapless before, and it certainly does now. In most works, especially the stuff I am liable to buy off DGWS, it doesn't matter; it is, however, annoying in the few works where it does.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2008, 03:58:12 PM
The Schubert is in the mail, should be here Tuesday or Wednesday. I think I will take Bunny's tip and download the Beethoven. After that, I would like to try some music I am less familiar with, maybe early 20th century (but not Mahler, please!). Any recs for Strauss or something similar by these forces would be appreciated. :)
8)
----------------
Listening to:
L'Archibudelli / Immerseel - Bia 455-1 Op 70 #1 Trio #4 in D for Piano & Strings 3rd mvmt - Presto
See about the Strauss
Vier letzte Lieder and Wagner
Wesendonck-Lieder with Cheryl Studer, Sinopoli, and the SK. Dresden. Very nice.
A good recommendation. I will write some more about good Strauss recordings with Sinopoli later (prolly tomorrow), but for now, let me just say that the recording of Ein Heldenleben is just sensational and one of the most beautiful sounding recordings of orchestral music I have ever heard. When Sinopoli became principal conductor of the SD, he said (with a big wink in his eyes) that he would have to teach the orchestra how to play Strauss...a pretty daring statement considering that they are the quintessential Strauss orchestra...but what he meant was that he wouldn't accept traditional ways uncritically, but also put them to the test and review them, and the way he approached Strauss' music with them was great, he understood and respected their traditions and what he called the "sort of art deco sound with which the orchestra plays this music", but he also critically relflected it and made his own contributions there. The result is fascinating and highly complex - and it sounds just fabulous.
Quote from: M forever on May 09, 2008, 10:12:33 PM
A good recommendation. I will write some more about good Strauss recordings with Sinopoli later (prolly tomorrow), but for now, let me just say that the recording of Ein Heldenleben is just sensational and one of the most beautiful sounding recordings of orchestral music I have ever heard. When Sinopoli became principal conductor of the SD, he said (with a big wink in his eyes) that he would have to teach the orchestra how to play Strauss...a pretty daring statement considering that they are the quintessential Strauss orchestra...but what he meant was that he wouldn't accept traditional ways uncritically, but also put them to the test and review them, and the way he approached Strauss' music with them was great, he understood and respected their traditions and what he called the "sort of art deco sound with which the orchestra plays this music", but he also critically relflected it and made his own contributions there. The result is fascinating and highly complex - and it sounds just fabulous.
I'm looking forward to it, as I am always almost ready to pull the trigger on his
Die Frau, but as much as I like Sinopoli, I always wonder if he's competition for Böhm and Karajan in that work.