I was just listening to Shostakovitch string quartet no. 15, which the notes on my CD describe as coming from Shostakovitch's obsession with his impending death. As I recall, there are 6 adagio movements in a row, with the most lively one designated as a "funeral march." Pardon my impertinence, but what an insufferable piece of trash. If you are obsessed with death, you should just go to the movies, you shouldn't be trying to write music. Especially if you are of the stature of Shostakovitch, so that everything you write is supposedly "significant."
Death is a pretty common subject, for any artist at any time--at any time of their life, for that matter. Indeed, teenagers are probably more obsessed with it than oldies. Anyway, the short answer to your question is "the work of art, as art, probably IS uplifting."
As for the 15th string quartet, what do you think of the music? Forget about Shostakovich's life (oh how I wish people could forget about Shostakovich's life--colors every piece anyone ever listens to pretty much--means that very few people really listen to the music itself, as music) and just listen.
You may still not particularly like it, but jeez, give yourself at least half a chance. (It's quite a nice piece, you see.)
Quote from: some guy on July 12, 2008, 09:22:41 PM
Death is a pretty common subject, for any artist at any time--at any time of their life, for that matter. Indeed, teenagers are probably more obsessed with it than oldies. Anyway, the short answer to your question is "the work of art, as art, probably IS uplifting."
As for the 15th string quartet, what do you think of the music? Forget about Shostakovich's life (oh how I wish people could forget about Shostakovich's life--colors every piece anyone ever listens to pretty much--means that very few people really listen to the music itself, as music) and just listen.
You may still not particularly like it, but jeez, give yourself at least half a chance. (It's quite a nice piece, you see.)
Believe me, I would have been reading the booklet at all if the piece hadn't been so deathly dull.
Ah, well, can't help you there. Except by saying that I at least do not find the piece at all dull. So there's a possibility that you, too, some day will also find it to be a satisfying musical experience.
Tod und Verklarung. An interpretation of death like no other.
Mahlers 10th. A death too soon, the great interpolation three quarters of the way through the adagio confirms that.
Death and the Maiden. I would die to this music. 8)
Artists are inspired by and interpret the world and the human condition. Death is about the only certainty. Especially in earlier generations, it was much more present; where cutting yourself could lead to death rather than a visit to the Doctor for a tetanus shot. Where infant mortality was high as against now, a burst appendix would spell the end and hundreds of thousands went off to war and lie under clean white headstones.
I am not surprised that various artists have been preoccupied with death; it is one of the major issues in life. Suggesting a Hollywood film to work on the angst is the trivialisation, not an adult exploration of it by composers and others.
Mike
Thanks, Mike. "That undiscover'd country, from whose bourne no traveller returns," demands that sentient creatures discover meaning in life. For some, it wears spurs; for others, it's a cheery hearth at the end of a long day. Until we come to grips with death, our lives are condemned to triviality.
So, in answer to the question posed by the OP, "Yes--it's a very uplifting subject."
I like Mahler 10th's list. In addition to the rest of Mahler's music, I would add at least all of the wonderful requiems, all of Bach's sacred music (and everyone else's!), much of Wagner, and so on, including my favorite symphonies, Sibelius's 4th and 5th.
Quote from: scarpia on July 12, 2008, 08:49:31 PM
I was just listening to Shostakovitch string quartet no. 15, which the notes on my CD describe as coming from Shostakovitch's obsession with his impending death. As I recall, there are 6 adagio movements in a row, with the most lively one designated as a "funeral march." Pardon my impertinence, but what an insufferable piece of trash. If you are obsessed with death, you should just go to the movies, you shouldn't be trying to write music. Especially if you are of the stature of Shostakovitch, so that everything you write is supposedly "significant."
A pity that it hasn't grabbed your ear this time around; that quartet really is magnificent.
Quote from: some guy on July 12, 2008, 10:42:23 PM
Ah, well, can't help you there. Except by saying that I at least do not find the piece at all dull. So there's a possibility that you, too, some day will also find it to be a satisfying musical experience.
One hopes. I never know what may be the right thing to suggest, when anyone finds "deathly dull" music which I find vital and absorbing.
Quote from: karlhenning on July 13, 2008, 05:21:27 AM
One hopes. I never know what may be the right thing to suggest, when anyone finds "deathly dull" music which I find vital and absorbing.
Give him time. Once he outgrows Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto he might find that what seems exciting in adolescence is actually dull, and vice versa.
Quote from: mahler10th on July 13, 2008, 01:50:10 AM
Tod und Verklarung. An interpretation of death like no other.
Mahlers 10th. A death too soon, the great interpolation three quarters of the way through the adagio confirms that.
Death and the Maiden. I would die to this music. 8)
All of these pieces have dramatic contrasts between gloomy thoughts and vital thoughts, fear of death, thoughts of life being left behind, remembrances of past experiences, hopeful thoughts, sad thoughts. This piece runs the gamut from A to B, so to speak.
Quote from: scarpia on July 13, 2008, 06:08:13 AM
All of these pieces have dramatic contrasts between gloomy thoughts and vital thoughts, fear of death, thoughts of life being left behind, remembrances of past experiences, hopeful thoughts, sad thoughts. This piece runs the gamut from A to B, so to speak.
If you were speaking of
Brahms, he might reply, "Any ass can tell that."
If you know much of the
Shostakovich oeuvre, you already understand that the composer has an excellent command of contrast, throughout his career.
In contrast to that mode of multi-movement organization, this is a quartet whose contrasts are subtle, whose color-pallette is deliberately muted. The fault is not in the piece; your listening gear need to be recalibrated.
Quote from: karlhenning on July 13, 2008, 06:19:02 AM
If you were speaking of Brahms, he might reply, "Any ass can tell that."
Brahms would have the good sense never to write such a piece of music.
Quote from: scarpia on July 13, 2008, 06:08:13 AM
All of these pieces have dramatic contrasts between gloomy thoughts and vital thoughts, fear of death, thoughts of life being left behind, remembrances of past experiences, hopeful thoughts, sad thoughts. This piece runs the gamut from A to B, so to speak.
None of those pieces have any such stuff. That's all stuff that you "read into" them. What those pieces have are tone, rhythm, melody, timbre, pitch, dynamics, harmony, duration, and so on. Likewise, running the gamut from A to B describes your ability to respond to the piece, not the piece itself. But I'm glad you brought it up, since it reminds me that I haven't heard this piece in quite some time--in fact, I doubt I've heard any of Shosty's 4tets in the past couple of months. Think I'll remedy that today, starting w/#15. Who knows, my reaction today might be identical to yours!
I figure that if you avoid the subject of death, you won't be prepared when it comes a'knockin'.
Quote from: scarpia on July 12, 2008, 08:49:31 PM
I was just listening to Shostakovitch string quartet no. 15, which the notes on my CD describe as coming from Shostakovitch's obsession with his impending death. As I recall, there are 6 adagio movements in a row, with the most lively one designated as a "funeral march." Pardon my impertinence, but what an insufferable piece of trash. If you are obsessed with death, you should just go to the movies, you shouldn't be trying to write music. Especially if you are of the stature of Shostakovitch, so that everything you write is supposedly "significant."
Do you suggest music should only concern itself with the uplifting; or at the very worst with the contrast between the uplifting and the pessimistic? Or is your objection with the theme of death in specific?
If so, why should not music be written to reflect on death? Is it a bad subject? Boring? Or a priori sentimental, and trite?
Please, do enlighten me. I'm usually not keen to engage on these sort of extra-musical discussions, but this one piqued my interest. :)
(Incidentally,
DavidRoss, themes such as death are far from absent in (certain iterations of) Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto; particularly the latter, though drenched in irony, like almost everything else about GTA. Off-hand dismissals are fun and simple, aren't they?)
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 13, 2008, 07:48:13 AM
None of those pieces have any such stuff. That's all stuff that you "read into" them. What those pieces have are tone, rhythm, melody, timbre, pitch, dynamics, harmony, duration, and so on. Likewise, running the gamut from A to B describes your ability to respond to the piece, not the piece itself.
How much can you read into a piece whose six movements are marked Adagio, Adagio, Adagio, Adagio, Adagio molto, and Adagio. Yes, after the exhaustion of four "Adagio" movements an "Adagio molto" brings welcome relief. Thsn it gets the hear racing to hear that "Adagio" finale come roaring out of the "Adagio molto."
Quote from: scarpia on July 13, 2008, 08:51:23 AM
How much can you read into a piece whose six movements are marked Adagio, Adagio, Adagio, Adagio, Adagio molto, and Adagio. Yes, after the exhaustion of four "Adagio" movements an "Adagio molto" brings welcome relief. Thsn it gets the hear racing to hear that "Adagio" finale come roaring out of the "Adagio molto."
So you found the music boring. Excellent. What does that have to do with death, now?
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 13, 2008, 07:48:13 AMWhat those pieces have are tone, rhythm, melody, timbre, pitch, dynamics, harmony, duration, and so on.
How nice to see someone besides me make that point!
(No, I'm not going to elaborate. I'm just gonna bask here for a minute. OK, I'll mention that I did listen to the fifteenth again after reading the original post, just to confirm my earlier impressions of it. There's a very funny musical joke in it, by the way. A sort of thumb your nose at death and solemnity joke. Or that's how I took it, anyway.)
Quote from: Renfield on July 13, 2008, 08:49:24 AM
(Incidentally, DavidRoss, themes such as death are far from absent in (certain iterations of) Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto; particularly the latter, though drenched in irony, like almost everything else about GTA. Off-hand dismissals are fun and simple, aren't they?)
WTF? This reads as if you're trying to chastize me (rather cheeky for a pup barely out of nappies!), but no matter how much I try to dumb down, I still can't figure out what you misread into the post you're referring to. Off-target rebukes are embarrassing and revealing, aren't they?
Now it's time to sit back and enjoy the Danels do Shosty 15!
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia...re - the Shosty String Quartet No. 15 in E flat minor
[Shostakovich told the Beethoven Quartet to play the first movement "so that flies drop dead in mid-air, and the audience start leaving the hall from sheer boredom".]
Quote from: mahler10th on July 13, 2008, 12:32:22 PM
[Shostakovich told the Beethoven Quartet to play the first movement "so that flies drop dead in mid-air, and the audience start leaving the hall from sheer boredom".]
Precious! This confirms to me that Dmitri Dmitriyevnich was as great as prepping groups to play his music as he was at composition and playing the piano. (I already knew this from listening to the classic G-minor Quintet recording with the Beethoven Quartet and Shostakovich at the piano. :D) Musicians use this sort of hyperbole all the time to prod other musicians to play their very best, and we all understand that nobody
really wants flies to drop dead. ;D
Quote from: mahler10th on July 13, 2008, 01:50:10 AM
Mahlers 10th. A death too soon, the great interpolation three quarters of the way through the adagio confirms that.
of course, there's always that one...... 0:) 0:) 0:)
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 13, 2008, 06:00:35 AM
Give him time. Once he outgrows Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto he might find that what seems exciting in adolescence is actually dull, and vice versa.
Have you every actually spent time to seriously get into Final Fantasy or Grand Theft Auto? Nothing dull about any of those games.
Quote from: Renfield on July 13, 2008, 08:49:24 AM
(Incidentally, DavidRoss, themes such as death are far from absent in (certain iterations of) Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto; particularly the latter, though drenched in irony, like almost everything else about GTA. Off-hand dismissals are fun and simple, aren't they?)
Exactly! Saying something like "Final Fantasy" is dull makes about as much sense as saying Shostakovich's 15th String Quartet is gay because it's too happy sounding. Even something negative like "silly" or "dorky" i could understand, but "dull" just wouldn't make any sense.
Oh, i hate to bring this up again........ but a better comparison- Dynasty Warriors, maybe? ;D
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 13, 2008, 10:32:48 AM
WTF? This reads as if you're trying to chastize me (rather cheeky for a pup barely out of nappies!), but no matter how much I try to dumb down, I still can't figure out what you misread into the post you're referring to. Off-target rebukes are embarrassing and revealing, aren't they?
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 13, 2008, 06:00:35 AM
Give him time. Once he outgrows Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto he might find that what seems exciting in adolescence is actually dull, and vice versa.
Additionally,
Quote from: DavidRoss, SignatureToo much hostility, dudes. Takes the fun out of it.
Finally, I would advise you to act your age, prior to using it as an excuse for valid argumentation.
Let's get back on topic without dragging into the discussion things we've (seemingly) barely a clue about, shall we? Or back up our points,
in a different thread. Be my guest and make one, if it matters as much as it apparently does, to you, as to insult me. :)
Meanwhile, I'll ask our moderators what their current policy on personal insults is, in order to assess my leeway. ;)
Quote from: Renfield on July 13, 2008, 02:17:39 PM
Additionally,
Finally, I would advise you to act your age, prior to using it as an excuse for valid argumentation.
Let's get back on topic without dragging into the discussion things we've (seemingly) barely a clue about, shall we? Or back up our points, in a different thread. Be my guest and make one, if it matters as much as it apparently does, to you, as to insult me. :)
Meanwhile, I'll ask our moderators what their current policy on personal insults is, in order to assess my leeway. ;)
Not to jump into any frays or anything, but isn't this entire post off-topic?
The way to get a discussion back on topic, I would think, is to post something on-topic, not to abjure one's colleagues into doing it.
And, since what I just said was all also off-topic (!), I should very quickly say that not only do the putative subjects of music distract one from the sounds themselves (and how they've been arranged) but trying to account for one's very personal, individual, and perhaps temporary boredom with a piece by finding something out about the circumstances of the composer's life when he was writing it will just as surely lead one
away from the music.
(I used the word "temporary" above, by the way, to suggest that DavidRoss's comments about FF and GTA were not so much about the games themselves as about the possibility of Scarpia's growing and changing, as we all have, as time goes on. That is what I got out of his comments, anyway. I, at least, did not think that his point was to diss the games.)
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on July 13, 2008, 01:05:06 PM
Exactly! Saying something like "Final Fantasy" is dull makes about as much sense as saying Shostakovich's 15th String Quartet is gay because it's too happy sounding. Even something negative like "silly" or "dorky" i could understand, but "dull" just wouldn't make any sense.
Oh, i hate to bring this up again........ but a better comparison- Dynasty Warriors, maybe? ;D
You've got it backwards. The point of the condescending put-down about Final Fantasy is that it is not boring, and that if I was sufficiently perceptive I would be able to appreciate a boring work like Shostakovitch String Quartet #15.
"Boring" is the kind of word that describes perceptions, not the things perceived.
You apparently find the quartet to be boring. OK. I'm not sure why it's so important to tell us all about that, but OK. The quartet has been found by other listeners, some of whom have already responded on this thread, to be interesting. The only conclusion from that, as a couple of us have pointed out, is that the time may come when you don't find it to be boring any more.
The quartet itself, in the meantime, will continue just to be itself, indifferent to whether any of us like it or not!
I believe that in Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony, written when he was in his mid eighties, stares death defiantly in the face, but I find it, paradoxically, to be a most life-affirming piece. Much can be said about the valedictory 27th Symphony of Miaskovsky, written when he was stricken with a fatal cancer and under critical disapproval from the regime. I have to say that I too like Shostakovich's final quartet and the, even later, Violin Sonata, which might also be seen as death obsessed.
Quote from: Renfield on July 13, 2008, 02:17:39 PM
Finally, I would advise you to act your age, prior to using it as an excuse for valid argumentation.
Let's get back on topic without dragging into the discussion things we've (seemingly) barely a clue about, shall we? Or back up our points, in a different thread. Be my guest and make one, if it matters as much as it apparently does, to you, as to insult me. :)
Meanwhile, I'll ask our moderators what their current policy on personal insults is, in order to assess my leeway. ;)
Your uncalled-for admonishments are off target again. My comment regarding computer gaming had nothing to do with the OP's issue with death. You went off on a tangent (that there are "deaths" in those games--duh!) to rebuke me, going out of your way to pick a fight instead of making a good faith effort to understand the comment. That was both cheeky and childish. When called on it with what most adults would recognize as warm-hearted chiding, rather than acknowledging the fault and apologizing, you felt insulted and reacted with another cheeky off-target rebuke...or series of rebukes, actually.
Now those of us who
are grown up recognize immediately the juvenile nature of such behavior. Not only did we go through it ourselves, but we watched (and suffered!) as our children went through it. You are obviously still child enough not to recognize how typically childish you're being, but please be advised that it's embarrassingly obvious. The issue is your unmerited and impudent personal rebuke directed at me, not my calling you on it. If you feel insulted, you need to recognize that your behavior is the problem. If you don't like having your childishness pointed out, then stop acting childishly. The mature thing to do is to take responsibility for correcting your behavior, not to compound the problem by attacking the messenger.
Your unprovoked but admittedly flyweight hostility is exactly the sort of thing addressed in my tagline, which you ironically quoted in another misplaced attempt to admonish me. Apparently you don't quite understand that, either...but I'm confident that you're bright enough to get it if only you apply yourself to understanding rather than to starting pissing contests.
Greg--Thank you for demonstrating the point I made previously in saying that "Once he outgrows Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto he might find that what seems exciting in adolescence is actually dull, and vice versa." I know you don't understand this yet, but when you've grown up a bit more you'll discover that those games are as boring as playing with Barbie dolls probably seems to you now.
Some guy--I see that you joined in while I was revising my comments above in an effort to take as much sting out of them as possible yet still be direct. You are exactly right, of course. I forget that there are some here who are hypersensitive and defensive about the appeal those games still have for them, thus they attack comments they interpret as "dissing" games as if they were personal insults. Maybe that's what happened here...? We'll probably never know. ;)
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 13, 2008, 03:57:17 PM
Greg--Thank you for demonstrating the point I made previously in saying that "Once he outgrows Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto he might find that what seems exciting in adolescence is actually dull, and vice versa." I know you don't understand this yet, but when you've grown up a bit more you'll discover that those games are as boring as playing with Barbie dolls probably seems to you now.
Yeah, I'll give you a call in 10 years when i turn 30 and finally stop liking Final Fantasy ::). Although i doubt that'll happen, since I still like stuff that i liked 8 years ago, the only difference is that I've learned to like even more stuff now.
In fact, I listen to Shostakovich sometimes when playing Final Fantasy 0:) 0:) 0:). And the last few days I've decided to get into some of Schubert's chamber music and I've been playing one of the older FF games to it (VI)....
It's not about "outgrowing" stuff you like (unless it's like Barney or Teletubbies), but learning to get closer to your interests and expanding at the same time. I don't see how anything is gained by learning to not like something.
Quote
I forget that there are some here who are hypersensitive and defensive about the appeal those games still have for them, thus they attack comments they interpret as "dissing" games as if they were personal insults. Maybe that's what happened here...? We'll probably never know. Wink
Games that you probably haven't even played yourself? I mean, beyond the first few hours?
What if I dismissed a composer I haven't even listened to? Not only that, but one of the GREAT composers....... keep in mind those two series you've mentioned are like the giants- the Beethoven or Jimi Hendrix of gaming (FF7 being voted in a popular game magazine as the greatest game ever made), if somebody dismissed them without even listening, people aren't going to like it.
Bruckner's 5th is inferior. ;)
Quote from: some guy on July 13, 2008, 02:44:36 PM
"Boring" is the kind of word that describes perceptions, not the things perceived.
You apparently find the quartet to be boring. OK. I'm not sure why it's so important to tell us all about that, but OK. The quartet has been found by other listeners, some of whom have already responded on this thread, to be interesting. The only conclusion from that, as a couple of us have pointed out, is that the time may come when you don't find it to be boring any more.
The quartet itself, in the meantime, will continue just to be itself, indifferent to whether any of us like it or not!
The thrust of my comment was not to classify the work as "boring" but to comment on the fact that it is an extremely long work which is extremely monotonous in its form and mood. If that is not a reasonable observation about a piece of music, then there is no point in discussing anything.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 13, 2008, 02:55:23 PM
I believe that in Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony, written when he was in his mid eighties, stares death defiantly in the face, but I find it, paradoxically, to be a most life-affirming piece. Much can be said about the valedictory 27th Symphony of Miaskovsky, written when he was stricken with a fatal cancer and under critical disapproval from the regime. I have to say that I too like Shostakovich's final quartet and the, even later, Violin Sonata, which might also be seen as death obsessed.
That is basically the point I am making. There are lots of works of art that take death are there theme, but they are more than extended meditations on brooding moroseness. Like Strauss' Tod und Verklarung or Mahler's symphony #9 they contrast death with life.
Quote from: scarpia on July 13, 2008, 04:15:43 PM
The thrust of my comment was not to classify the work as "boring" but to comment on the fact that it is an extremely long work which is extremely monotonous in its form and mood. If that is not a reasonable observation about a piece of music, then there is no point in discussing anything.
I'm going to have to listen to that quartet again, you've got me interested....... in a bad way.... ;D
ok, just checked the score, and yeah, it seems to be the one i remember with the most solo lines out of all of the quartets. I don't think it was my favorite. Ever listen to the 13?
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on July 13, 2008, 01:05:06 PM
Exactly! Saying something like "Final Fantasy" is dull makes about as much sense as saying Shostakovich's 15th String Quartet is gay because it's too happy sounding.
Well, gay and happy
are synonyms ;)
Main Entry: gay
Part of Speech: adjective
Synonyms: (colloq.) loose, airy, animated, blithe, bright, brilliant, brisk, carefree, cheerful, chipper, convivial, dashing, dissolute, exhilarating, fast, festive, flashing, flashy, frisky, frolicsome, gallant, gaudy, glad, gleeful, happy, jocular, jocund, jolly, jovial, joyful, joyous, lighthearted, lively, merry, mirthful, playful, riant, showy, sportive, sprightly, vivacious, vivid
Quote from: Szykniej on July 13, 2008, 04:39:03 PM
Well, gay and happy are synonyms ;)
Main Entry: gay
Part of Speech: adjective
Synonyms: (colloq.) loose, airy, animated, blithe, bright, brilliant, brisk, carefree, cheerful, chipper, convivial, dashing, dissolute, exhilarating, fast, festive, flashing, flashy, frisky, frolicsome, gallant, gaudy, glad, gleeful, happy, jocular, jocund, jolly, jovial, joyful, joyous, lighthearted, lively, merry, mirthful, playful, riant, showy, sportive, sprightly, vivacious, vivid
ha. ha. you got me!
"riant?" "jocund?" lol there's some new ones for me.
Hah! Riant's a new one to me, too.
(Learning new things always makes me riant, that's for sure!! Sometimes I get downright ebullient.)
Quote from: some guy on July 13, 2008, 04:52:33 PM
Hah! Riant's a new one to me, too.
(Learning new things always makes me riant, that's for sure!! Sometimes I get downright ebullient.)
I can just imagine using that in a conversation.
"I was so riant yesterday when i got my new dog! It made me so jocund!"
Quote from: scarpia on July 13, 2008, 02:36:08 PM
You've got it backwards. The point of the condescending put-down about Final Fantasy is that it is not boring, and that if I was sufficiently perceptive I would be able to appreciate a boring work like Shostakovitch String Quartet #15.
No, the point of the statement about games like Final Fantasy is that your opening post revealed how young you are, but that you will outgrow those attitudes as you mature. You continue to mistake your subjective response, "boring," for a quality intrinsic to the work--another indicator of immaturity.
Quote from: scarpia on July 13, 2008, 04:15:43 PM
The thrust of my comment was not to classify the work as "boring" but to comment on the fact that it is an extremely long work which is extremely monotonous in its form and mood. If that is not a reasonable observation about a piece of music, then there is no point in discussing anything.
More of the same. Others are trying to help you to see that your complaints have nothing to do with the work itself, but are only revealing expressions of your emotional reaction to the music, and to suggest that you might respond differently to the work later in life. You continue to insist otherwise. Fine. I've had enough.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 13, 2008, 07:22:55 PM
More of the same. Others are trying to help you to see that your complaints have nothing to do with the work itself, but are only revealing expressions of your emotional reaction to the music, and to suggest that you might respond differently to the work later in life. You continue to insist otherwise. Fine. I've had enough.
You, Mr. Clown (if you avatar is to be trusted) are the one who is showing your infantile attitude, with your pompous posturing to the effect that since you claim to like this piece you are therefore so much more discriminating in your tastes. I have listened to this piece many times, I even remember being amused by it when I was an adolescent. I do not claim that the piece lacks objective merit, or that no one should like it. The issue is that the artistic vision that is at the root of this piece is of no interest to me. The notion that the only explanation for my not being convinced by the piece is that I don't understand it is nonsense. I understand it just fine. I just don't like it. I notice that no one who condescends to lecture me on my lack of understanding of this piece actually has anything substantive to say about, except that the fact that they claim to enjoy it makes them superior to me.
I cannot recall a young person here who has responded positively to having their age used against them as a debating point.
Mike
Quote from: knight on July 13, 2008, 09:40:55 PM
I cannot recall a young person here who has responded positively to having their age used against them as a debating point.
Mike
It is generally used by those who have gotten old without getting any wiser.
That is not a helpful remark, do try being helpful....for a change, you might like it.
Mike
At any rate, scarps, take a lesson from history: it is not to the people that don't "get" a piece, that history gives evaluation rights.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 13, 2008, 03:57:17 PM
You went off on a tangent (that there are "deaths" in those games--duh!)
I said death is an issue, a theme, a
motif in those games, to be exact. And incidentally, Scarpia began by commenting on creators' urges to include the theme of death in their creations, before revealing his point to actually be about how boring a string quartet is.
(Something which I have already pointed out previously in this thread.)
I also do not take kindly to comments that address anything other than the argument at hand, be they about age, sex, race, or anything of the such - and particularly when they are made "off-hand". I find it in bad faith, and in bad taste.
Finally, I continue to find your assessment of something the content of which you appear barely aware of entirely embarrassing as well; I would have said "juvenile", but apparently that would be most unbecoming of me.
I am not trying to "pick a fight", but apparently you are, by insisting on having the right to "put me back in my place". Under the laws of a few counties, I am an adult, and do take particular offence when others go out of their way to use my age as an excuse not to argue.
Still, I would hope you understand that I am not in this forum to argue about anything more or less than music, and in this context occasionally request of others to clarify their arguments (much as I strive to do myself).
I don't see how I should not comment when something rather obviously irrelevant to a musical discussion comes up; or how I should accept any position, whether about games, music or film, or anything else, that is unsupported by evidence or argument.
Then again, it must be my age. I apologise, sir, and will refrain from stepping out of bounds with regards to conversation with your person.
Let us please terminate this discussion, or continue it elsewhere: personal messages are an option.
Edit:Let me display my age a bit further, now: does my post count say
leet? ;D Is this Rob's doing? Whom do I thank for the unexpected mood-lifter? :D
Quote from: Renfield on July 14, 2008, 06:16:22 AM
Edit:
Let me display my age a bit further, now: does my post count say leet? ;D Is this Rob's doing? Whom do I thank for the unexpected mood-lifter? :D
A forum thing - it does it automatically. If you post again it'll be gone forever ;_:
i meant to write this yesterday, but didn't get to post it :P
QuoteOkay, i just finished listening to the quartet again.
My impressions-
1st movement is a really nice polyphonic medieval-sounding thing, though at nearly 12', a bit too long. Second movement starts with the fade-in violins, the only thing i remember about the movement (is this used somewhere else, too?) ???. 3rd Movement a short wtf, 4th is just really dreamy stuff, floating accompaniment figures which move in opposite curves over a melody, 5th movement sounds like more filler, the last movement somewhat of a recap of the first. Overall, not my favorite but I don't think it's bad at all, just too long!
bad timing, of course
Quote from: karlhenning on July 14, 2008, 03:19:33 AM
At any rate, scarps, take a lesson from history: it is not to the people that don't "get" a piece, that history gives evaluation rights.
You don't get it. I get it, I just don't like it.
Mike--I thought that the point you made (quoted below) was worth addressing publicly, though not until after some time for reflection had passed:
Quote from: knight on July 13, 2008, 09:40:55 PM
I cannot recall a young person here who has responded positively to having their age used against them as a debating point.
But I do know of one, at least, who does not brandish adolescent defensiveness like a hair-triggered weapon, who does not mistake recognition of his relative inexperience as an attack or "debating point," and who's smart enough to understand that at 21 he doesn't know everything...yet. ;) Given these characteristics, it's no surprise that he often makes rather astute observations revealing wisdom beyond his years. He has the advantage of knowing that he doesn't know, which makes it possible for him to learn, and thus to develop informed and considered opinions.
The fellow I'm thinking of also has the advantage of being reasonably bright, though I don't understand why it seems to require genius-level intelligence for a twenty-year-old to understand that he still has a lot to learn. The math can't be that difficult! Is it unreasonable to expect most kids to be smart enough to reflect on their own history, recognize how much they've learned since puberty, and then imagine the growth that lies ahead? Could it be that some have trouble with this concept simply because they've hardly grown at all since the short curlies started coming in?
David,
You describe a young Marcus Aurelius; and there are not many of those to the pound. I recall many years ago going to a new job within the government department I was working in. As a preparation, I was to learn the ropes at a lower grade, itself a complex job. At the end of three weeks my boss called me in and asked whether I was now up to speed. My reply was that I did not know what I did not know.
So, knowing at a young age what you don't know is a fair step ahead of me.
My original remark was serious; though in its brevity I dropped it hoping it would simply act as a break rather than resolve the annoyances.
To take the thought further though. Setting aside the individuals involved here; there is always the temptation for the young stags to lock antlers with the older ones. Especially if there is a perceived slight. They extend themselves to prove themselves. I see this often within my family. I observe energy being expended to no good result. To an extent it is the way of the world.
The getting of wisdom is often a later learned quality. To observe it in the young indicates something beyond the normal, to be admired, but hardly expected.
So, assuming most will puff out the chest when crossed; it is up to those older heads to decide whether to indulge the young ones with a dust up, or decide it is not worth the effort and reserve authority for the ground worth fighting about.
This is not any rebuke; I am merely following my train of thought. I am grateful that my remark gave rise to a thoughtful response.
Mike
At this stage, I feel it will be both important and useful for me to clarify some things, in response to more than a specific provocation (to the concept of which I am still far from immune; maybe in later years I will conquer that skill, which I never claimed to possess, to begin with).
Firstly, I respect Corey very much, but not because of his erudition, his astuteness or his refinement, all three of which I do not deny. I respect him for having had the courage, the proverbial "guts" to make choices where others use their years as an excuse to postpone them.
And that has little to do with whether he reads Thomas Mann, or whether he is particularly stoic. Nor do I envy him, or would have him envy me. We all have our virtues and vices, often from even before we leave the womb - much less after over two decades.
Likewise, and this leads to my second point, do I greatly respect Greg, for having had the courage to make certain choices of his when he could have opted not to, regardless of whether I think (or can have an opinion on if) they are wise; his or mine.
Because make no mistake, my being callous (a shortcoming of my personality I am happy to accept) and have a "hair-trigger" on some subjects (which I do) does not mean I have ever claimed the wisdom to know if and when I am wise myself.
I never will have that, and I don't want it. If your world-view contains the possibility of knowing if and when you are wise, then so be it. Mine does not; yet for some reason (peculiarly, as I am not a modest person) I still do not feel the need to trumpet that fact.
Thirdly, on the aforementioned and aptly worded "hair-trigger", a known issue for those few people who know me well: do you remember my mentioning that what I was responding to was "in bad faith, and in bad taste"?
That, or more specifically my (perhaps flawed) perception of that having occurred, is what triggered my reaction.
It is not the age issue per se, but rather the use of the "age excuse" in any of its forms, which I consider off-limits in my discussions with others. I think the reason should be obvious, but I will nonetheless briefly explain:
In a nutshell, I strive for formal perfection. I go out of my way to purge my own arguments of anything that would distract someone from the argument itself. That is both a side-effect of my primary occupation, which I would like to think is philosophy (and with your permission ask to be allowed to maintain that illusion until proven wrong), and a part of how my personality, regardless of my age, is constructed.
Therefore. among other things, I cannot understand unclarity in argument, and, as my neuronal circuitry would have it, am instinctively offended by others' "adding it to the mix", consciously, deliberately or otherwise.
And since the most obvious way of bringing external factors to an argument with me from an older person's point of view is to reference my age, this is a prime casus belli for me, at the moment. Later on, when this might not be an issue anymore, something else might replace it.
Thus, I find the use of the "age" card in the poker game that is all discussion ("from my distorted personal viewpoint", you may freely add) to be distasteful, in the same way others find vulgarity distasteful, and I do not. The playing fields switch from "argument vs. argument" to "argument vs. person making argument"; the water is muddled. Likewise for the comment that began this debate, which provoked me in its being ill-informed. That's why I stay out of any philosophical or religious discussion in this forum, and should have stayed out of this one too.
I fully realise I might be taking this far too seriously, but this is simply how I am; I also take phenomenology seriously, and I've yet to receive any complaints. Certainly, though, I do not claim any universal power guides my hand in the judgement of others. I don't even claim to judge anyone: at the very worst (and best), I judge arguments, points made, evidence or lack thereof to support them.
And I seek of others to respond in kind; sometimes more testily than their sensibilities would accommodate, but then I also have my own sensibilities to take into consideration and cater to. No more, no less. Is this a simpler expression of my views and position on this issue?
Really, I detest making such a high-strung speech on things people visiting the forum should not have to concern themselves with.
This discussion should have simply been about our arguments; things like age should not never have been brought into play. Is it entirely irrational of me to seek to keep certain things out of where they do not belong? I wonder... :)
Hair-trigger warning.
Indeed,, if nothing else, for decency's sake: this is an internet forum about classical music! Is it only a problem when the irrelevant or inappropriate content is obvious? And we call ourselves refined?
Should that be the case, by all means, the next time a person decides to argue with me using comments directed at my person, rather than my argument, please add an insult like "you are an idiot", so it might be more obvious that I should be unsettled.
As it should seem that maturity is only "obviously" attached to the absolute number of days one has consciously existed in the world, as well. Otherwise it is "not obvious", and therefore "not the case", as this reasoning would have one think... See my point?
And make sure to ask me about my view in 20 years, if I'm around then, so as for me to be able to put the same opinion in an older man's terms, or come to realise I've lost my proverbial marbles, and forgotten elementary lessons of logic and reasoning.
Until then, I'd have you reserve your judgement.
...........................................................................................
Also, since I seem to have already turned this post into a personal F.A.Q., please refrain from assuming I ever imply anything as serious as a personal insult with my tone, other than a reflection of my mood at a given moment.
Had I wanted to insult, I would have done so obviously (note that "chide" and "insult" are things I consider markedly different).
And had I wanted to discipline myself into writing entirely passively, I likely could, but I reject the notion that participation in an online forum need entail such a constant self-oppression as would be required. If that is an issue, I will happily terminate my participation here.
I think that is about all the issues I can think of that may likely arise, or have arisen, with regards to my person in this forum. Since I have taken the time to type out all this, I would appreciate it if anyone wanting a clarification or further discussion PMed me.
The whole idea is, after all, not to derail even one more discussion on classical with a discussion on Renfield; or Corey; or Mike; or DavidRoss.
P.S.: I really wish we'd actually been discussing "death as an uplifting subject", in fact, as per the topic. Then again, I've no idea how many people, even here, would seriously commit themselves to such a discussion. Yet I don't complain. I didn't join this forum to talk Heidegger.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 20, 2008, 10:31:22 AM
Is it unreasonable to expect most kids to be smart enough to reflect on their own history, recognize how much they've learned since puberty, and then imagine the growth that lies ahead?
I think it's unreasonable.
Quote from: Don on July 20, 2008, 02:18:26 PM
I think it's unreasonable.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but so do I. When I was 20, I was not only immortal, but I also knew everything. Now I realize that I am probably mortal... ;)
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Bavarian State Orchestra / Fricsay Clara Haskil - K 595 Concerto #27 in Bb for Piano 1st mvmt - Allegro
Quote from: Don on July 20, 2008, 02:18:26 PM
I think it's unreasonable.
And incidentally, since the topic seems to have shifted properly to an entirely different issue, I agree.
However, I also strongly doubt
most 40-year-olds could tell 20-year-olds apart. Because that's just how dangerous the word "most" is: dangerous in terms of the presumptions and needless, uncouth generalisation it can lead to.
In general (pun unintended), I have not met a single individual in their early twenties that does not appear to, at best, gravitate
between different extremes, with respect to their (our) appraisals and responses to external events.
As for internal events, suffice to say that it seems to be an issue of responding or not to them at all. Certainly "most" do not; while even those who
do seem to be introspective only as a result of personality traits that are "triggered" by external stimuli at (in)appropriate times.
Then again, in combination with available time for such introspection, this could be proposed as a general mechanism for maturity.
Either way, this is thankfully not as simple as "most" would have it be; gives people like me* something to spend our time on! ;)
* My second primary occupation is psychology. Not to say that gives me any privileges in my relations with others (quite the contrary), and - behold distinctly 20-year-old insecurity - I certainly do not intend this note towards self-advertisement, before anyone cries "wolf!".
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 20, 2008, 10:31:22 AM
Is it unreasonable to expect most kids to be smart enough to reflect on their own history, recognize how much they've learned since puberty, and then imagine the growth that lies ahead? Could it be that some have trouble with this concept simply because they've hardly grown at all since the short curlies started coming in?
No more unreasonable than to think that the old codgers among us will do the math and realize that their life energy is mostly spent and that they will never amount to any more than they have already. The ones I see lecturing the young on their lack of modesty seem to be those who have accrued the years without acquiring their portion of wisdom.
Quote from: Renfield on July 21, 2008, 03:40:47 AM
In general (pun unintended), I have not met a single individual in their early twenties that does not appear to, at best, gravitate between different extremes, with respect to their (our) appraisals and responses to external events.
As for internal events, suffice to say that it seems to be an issue of responding or not to them at all. Certainly "most" do not; while even those who do seem to be introspective only as a result of personality traits that are "triggered" by external stimuli at (in)appropriate times.
For anyone who might have attempted to read this post, I'd like to elaborate that the "extremes" I refer to are in the
self-esteem scale - something I forgot to mention, and thus my observation probably made little sense. My apologies for that.
Quote from: scarpia on July 21, 2008, 07:20:14 AM...old codgers among us...their life energy...mostly spent
Hahaha, now there's funny.
So suggesting that young person may not have sufficient experience is bad and rude and insulting and strongly to be deprecated, at length, but calling older people names and saying genuinely insulting things about them is OK?
(I'd say more about this, but my life energy is nearly spent, doncha know, and I need a nap....)
Quote from: some guy on July 21, 2008, 10:12:30 AM
So suggesting that young person may not have sufficient experience is bad and rude and insulting and strongly to be deprecated, at length, but calling older people names and saying genuinely insulting things about them is OK?
"Not have sufficient
modesty" is closer to what he said, to be precise. (Not that I agree with his manners.)
Edit: I realise every second response in this thread seems to be mine. It must be the result of my constantly scanning GMG for new posts while I think something irrelevant over, and in any case I think I'd best stop it.
Mmm . . . a nap.
Quote from: karlhenning on July 21, 2008, 10:27:55 AM
Mmm . . . a nap.
Don't do it!!! You might never wake up.
Anyway, napping is strongly discouraged in the office. Somehow.
Youth is such a wonderful thing. What a crime to waste it on children.
--George Bernard Shaw--
Usually paraphrased as "Youth is wasted on the young."
;)
Oscar Wilde.
"To get back one's youth one has merely to repeat one's follies"
Mike
Quote from: Szykniej on July 21, 2008, 12:12:20 PM
Youth is such a wonderful thing. What a crime to waste it on children.
--George Bernard Shaw--
And
sleeping........ if it were only possible to sleep less than 9 or 10 hours and actually feel good waking up..... :P
"But wherefore do not you a mightier way
make war upon this bloody tyrant Time?", gentlemen?
(Since we all seem to invoking writers of the past to represent us. ;))
And I don't only mean one party in this discussion, or another.
Hurry, before I have something on my mind again and my OCD catches up, leading to much forum-refreshing, and superfluous replies aplenty! :o
*chuckles*
If that string quartet is deathly dull, then that's on the mark. What could possibly be more boring than dying? I think composers should be allowed to write pieces knowing that people will hate them., or with the intention of brewing loathing. Not that Shostakovich did that, but if the quote of his that was posted earlier is true, he comes close.
On the surface, most people don't want to die, and naturally will try to avoid it. Any interest besides that is considered morbid curiosity.