How did Mahler as a great composer justify spending most of his time conducting, and only summers composing? He must have known that his compositions in posterity would eventually reach an amount of listeners great enough to dwarf those who attended the concerts he conducted. Was this a need for income? Or what? Did he feel his inspiration was such that summers alone was enough to satisfy it?
Can anyone imagine any of the other truly greats (except for Bach, who probably made no real distinctions among composing, performing, teaching and conducting), but say, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Wagner, Brahms, whoever you will, restricting himself basically to composing only in summertime?
Conducting was his job; composing was his passion. He composed many of his works in specially built composing 'huts' in beautiful scenery chosen because it was exactly how he wanted it to be. It was his summer hols - his retreat. That's maybe one reason why he managed to compose such masterpieces
Quote from: techniquest on September 10, 2008, 10:44:55 AM
Conducting was his job; composing was his passion. He composed many of his works in specially built composing 'huts' in beautiful scenery chosen because it was exactly how he wanted it to be. It was his summer hols - his retreat. That's maybe one reason why he managed to compose such masterpieces
Yes indeed. Mahler was known as a top conductor of his day more than anything else, and that was his primary occupation. Today, when we talk about Boulez, we think of him as a conductor - maybe in 50 years he will be better remembred and appreciated as a composer in the same way (but...er...not by me, even if I do live to 92 years old.)
I don't agree that Mahler's other activities should be considered less valuable than his work as a composer. After all, the preparation and performance of works of classical music constituted an essential part of his musical education, and must have had a strong influence on the music he wrote. It is also not clear that other composers of the early 20th century, or the ones you mention, were able to spend a greater fraction of their time composing than Mahler did.
Probably financial reasons. If you have to make a living, would you rather be a conductor or a milkman?
Quote from: Chaszz on September 10, 2008, 10:41:37 AM
He must have known that his compositions in posterity would eventually reach an amount of listeners great enough to dwarf those who attended the concerts he conducted.
Carefull there
Chaszz, Mahler was a huge admirer of Wagner 0:) and spent time conducting Wagner's operas like the complete Ring Cycle. I don't have to tell you that no one can fill an opera house's seats with spectators quite like Herr Wagner 0:)! A guaranteed income I am sure for Mahler.
marvin
Quote from: Chaszz on September 10, 2008, 10:41:37 AM
How did Mahler as a great composer justify spending most of his time conducting, and only summers composing? He must have known that his compositions in posterity would eventually reach an amount of listeners great enough to dwarf those who attended the concerts he conducted.
What makes you think that Mahler could predict the future?
Quote from: Don on September 10, 2008, 12:54:56 PM
What makes you think that Mahler could predict the future?
He said stuff like "My time will come".
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on September 10, 2008, 01:54:15 PM
He said stuff like "My time will come".
A bum prediction to be sure: Richard Strauss' day is not quite done.
Quote from: marvinbrown on September 10, 2008, 12:51:56 PM
Carefull there Chaszz, Mahler was a huge admirer of Wagner 0:) and spent time conducting Wagner's operas like the complete Ring Cycle. I don't have to tell you that no one can fill an opera house's seats with spectators quite like Herr Wagner 0:)! A guaranteed income I am sure for Mahler.
marvin
I'm not entirely sure that the conflation of impresario and conductor is entirely appropriate here. I would assume that Mahler's fees at a state-subsidized theater would be the same whether he packed the house or had the crickets doubling the strings. So, in this case, Wagner's popularity, though great, is irrelevant.
Quote from: PSmith08 on September 10, 2008, 02:20:38 PM
I'm not entirely sure that the conflation of impresario and conductor is entirely appropriate here. I would assume that Mahler's fees at a state-subsidized theater would be the same whether he packed the house or had the crickets doubling the strings. So, in this case, Wagner's popularity, though great, is irrelevant.
Well then if that is the case I stand corrected.
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on September 10, 2008, 01:54:15 PM
He said stuff like "My time will come".
Well, I stand corrected.
EVERY great composer was also a very active performing musician, up until the 20th century. Some, like Schumann, Tchaikovsky and Debussy, were not particularly accomplished as conductors, but they did conduct, or play an instrument, usually keyboard. (I can't think of any who were also great singers, but I don't doubt there were some. Schubert is said to have been a fine boy soprano, IIRC.) Berlioz, Mendelssohn and Wagner, especially, were considered major conductors in their day, and not only of their own music. Mahler was only doing what other musicians over the centuries have done.
The "ivory-tower" composer who doesn't himself perform is a 20th-century invention--and to some extent a mythological creature even now. Bartók, Prokofieff, Shostakovich and (of course) Rachmaninoff were magnificent pianists; Stravinsky and Britten conducted all their major works in recordings; and a few years ago I heard Philip Glass in concert playing one of his own pieces on piano, and he was quite good! :D I've also heard Alan Hovhaness leading his own music on recordings. I cannot think of any truly major composer, except possibly Varèse, who was/is not also a very accomplished performing musician.
Quote from: marvinbrown on September 10, 2008, 02:29:25 PM
Well then if that is the case I stand corrected.
All theaters Mahler worked at where state theaters (that's why the Vienna Court Opera (Hofoper) was called the Vienna Court Opera). Except for the MET where he appeared, but not for very long.
Well, here are a few points in support of my implicit contention that Mahler might or should have devoted more time to composing, which most of the replies have been more or less in opposition to.
1. Although it is true that most composers of his time and before also conducted, he is the only one I know of who specifically confined his composing to the summer. A distinctly small fraction of the year. Wagner, a professional conductor, certainly did not confine his composing to two or three months a year. Not did any of the others mentioned in the replies, to my knowledge. So that makes Mahler a special case, IMO, perhaps a little bit of a poignant one if financial necessity was the main reason.
2. Brahms reportedly was glad when he could afford to give up conducting and pianizing (did I coin that?) and only compose. Many composers who conducted did so only sporadically, not regularly. Strauss was so facile he could probably have composed WHILE conducting (no slur on his great works whatsoever is intended).
3. As to Mahler's view of his posterity, he is recorded as having told a friend his Eighth Symphony was his "greatest so far." So he doesn't sound like a shrinking violet re his importance. I don't know how much difficulty he had getting his works performed, so I thought I'd call on the experts here for some info. I was just being lazy, I can easily read about his life. Please forgive me for my laziness. I suspect if was a financial necessity for him to conduct, although obviously he loved it and was great at it.
I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying Mahler was a lazy bum for only composing in the summer? It's likely that he was thinking about music the whole year round. Unlike many other famous composers, he did not have to teach to make a living (as far as I know).
Perhaps Mahler ingested a great deal from conducting - aside from superfluous things like keeping body and soul together and his marriage intact - until the summer rallies when what was gleaned from a steady job became morphed and catalyzed into his own outstanding creations.
The quandary with the human race is they always have to play catch up with genius and belatedly pay in fame what they did not pay in money and we know without question MONEY supercedes ANYTHING a genius has to offer. This makes FAME and the hot air of IMMORTALITY the cheapest commodity of all!
But didn't Mahler orchestrate his compositions during his conducting "season"? If I've remembered this correctly, it makes perfect sense: the hard "creative" work that required calm was already done, so he could concentrate on polishing and refining the "visions" he'd drafted over the summer. (That makes it sound as if orchestration was a mere "detail" for Mahler, but of course it was anything but... 8))
Quote from: jochanaan on September 12, 2008, 03:43:53 PM
But didn't Mahler orchestrate his compositions during his conducting "season"? If I've remembered this correctly, it makes perfect sense: the hard "creative" work that required calm was already done, so he could concentrate on polishing and refining the "visions" he'd drafted over the summer. (That makes it sound as if orchestration was a mere "detail" for Mahler, but of course it was anything but... 8))
If he did orchestrations, then it was most likely just the manual labor of making copies or revising the orchestrations while making copies. But he obviously did have in mind the orchestra from the very beginning, as you said.......
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on September 12, 2008, 05:06:05 PM
If he did orchestrations, then it was most likely just the manual labor of making copies or revising the orchestrations while making copies. But he obviously did have in mind the orchestra from the very beginning, as you said.......
This is not the way Mahler worked on his later symphonies. They were drafted in short score during the summer (four staves with minimal indication of orchestration) and cast in orchestral form during the winter months. This is why the Symphony #10 was left as it was. After his work over the summer was concluded he spent the following winter working on revisions to the 9th rather than the 10th, which was left the 10th mostly in the form of sketches in short score. The gist of it is that Mahler worked year round on his compositions, although he tended to devote the summer months to the conception of works that were elaborated later.
Quote from: Chaszz on September 12, 2008, 08:34:58 PM
I am starting to explore Mahler systematically for the first time, and it was because I knew that some people here know more about Mahler than I that I asked the question. It didn't make sense to me that a genius would confine his composing to the summer. When the first responses didn't clear the matter up, I sharpened the questioning by implying I thought Mahler could have composed more, in order to elicit more informative responses. I made no pretense to be an expert and was ready and willing to be persuaded otherwise. This is a forum and a place for discussion. Through it by means of successive posts, I learned that he orchestrated during the winter, which makes sense and gives me the information I sought. And fulfills the function of a forum. Obviously the people who kindly answered me saw some reason to give the tiniest sh*t and do so. There is nothing wrong with me, or with them either, thank you.
No offense, but that information can be easily obtain via the internet. Ever heard of wikipedia.org? I mean there are endless ways to obtain information on Mahler's life, so why come to a forum to ask for that information(often unreliable), when you can easily obtain it else where?
Quote from: Chaszz on September 10, 2008, 10:41:37 AM
How did Mahler as a great composer justify spending most of his time conducting, and only summers composing? He must have known that his compositions in posterity would eventually reach an amount of listeners great enough to dwarf those who attended the concerts he conducted. Was this a need for income? Or what? Did he feel his inspiration was such that summers alone was enough to satisfy it?
Can anyone imagine any of the other truly greats (except for Bach, who probably made no real distinctions among composing, performing, teaching and conducting), but say, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Wagner, Brahms, whoever you will, restricting himself basically to composing only in summertime?
I can't see there is any reason to think he had more music in him if he had had more time to compose. I'm not saying there weren't but we will never know, and composing is a matter of reflection, maturing and developing complex ideas. If he had composed more, maybe quality qould have suffered? And he maybe never would have been subject to the impulses and experiences that made him the Mahler we know.
On the other hand, he just may have been an inconsiderate SOB that never thought of US!
Quote from: Gustav on September 13, 2008, 12:55:19 PM
No offense, but that information can be easily obtain via the internet. Ever heard of wikipedia.org? I mean there are endless ways to obtain information on Mahler's life, so why come to a forum to ask for that information(often unreliable), when you can easily obtain it else where?
I wonder about that, too, myself...... there was someone who asked about the history of the piano in another thread not long ago. I think the real motive was that they were doing some report for school and didn't want to plagiarize a source, so they had to ask someone to put it in their own words. If they can use a search engine to find GMG, i think they could use it to find some info about the piano.
Quote from: Gustav on September 13, 2008, 12:55:19 PM
No offense, but that information can be easily obtain via the internet. Ever heard of wikipedia.org? I mean there are endless ways to obtain information on Mahler's life, so why come to a forum to ask for that information(often unreliable), when you can easily obtain it else where?
I wish I were young enough, or even within shouting distance of it, to be doing a report for school. The main reason I asked it here was to save time. Although I've not read a biography of Mahler, I've read articles on the web and chapters in musical history books where the summer composing is mentioned along with the winter conducting, but no explanation or elaboration is given. I noticed there were a good number of Mahler fans here and thought I could get a ready answer. And wikipedia has been shown many times to be unreliable. Along with the reply from the shark which has been deleted by the moderator as abusive, the whole experience with this thread including the quote I am answering here (even with his disclaimer of offense), has gone far toward making me consider avoiding this site and based on other experiences, classical music forums in general. Life is too short for this kind of stuff. To outlast someone like AC Douglas, who has thankfully exiled himself from a number of sites, and then meet other people who belong to his school, is a bit too much. I suppose the whole internet is famous for bad feelings and flaming hiding behind anonymity, but classical music sites is where I've personally experienced behavior which people would never exhibit in person in a real-life group. It reminds me of road behavior, which also is made possible by anonymity, in that case relative rather than total.
Quote from: Chaszz on September 15, 2008, 02:16:08 PM
I wish I were young enough, or even within shouting distance of it, to be doing a report for school.
ah, ok ;D
Well, i myself feel disappointed that i couldn't give you a good answer for this, since as you can tell, Mahler is like my idol.... beyond words. 0:) I've read a biography but it was so boring that I don't remember hardly anything from it. And as I posted before, there's some I'm interested in purchasing but don't have the money for.
My advice is, you can quit posting, but you shouldn't let certain people get to you. People say really stupid stuff sometimes, but I still find it worth posting here, given what I learn all the time. Don't take them seriously. And I wouldn't want you leave. :(
Quote from: Chaszz on September 15, 2008, 02:16:08 PM
I wish I were young enough, or even within shouting distance of it, to be doing a report for school.
excuses, one is never too old to learn.
Quote from: Chaszz on September 15, 2008, 02:16:08 PM
The main reason I asked it here was to save time.
Well, there are no shortcuts to learning. You get what you put into it.
Quote from: Chaszz on September 15, 2008, 02:16:08 PM
Although I've not read a biography of Mahler, I've read articles on the web and chapters in musical history books where the summer composing is mentioned along with the winter conducting, but no explanation or elaboration is given. I noticed there were a good number of Mahler fans here and thought I could get a ready answer.
Well, being a fan don't always equate to being an expert, you know.
Quote from: Chaszz on September 15, 2008, 02:16:08 PM
And wikipedia has been shown many times to be unreliable.
That maybe true, but last time i checked, their entries on biographies are solid, good stuff. You should check it out, i mean, not that many people are disputing Mahler's life you know.
Quote from: Chaszz on September 15, 2008, 02:16:08 PM
Along with the reply from the shark which has been deleted by the moderator as abusive, the whole experience with this thread including the quote I am answering here (even with his disclaimer of offense), has gone far toward making me consider avoiding this site and based on other experiences, classical music forums in general. Life is too short for this kind of stuff. To outlast someone like AC Douglas, who has thankfully exiled himself from a number of sites, and then meet other people who belong to his school, is a bit too much. I suppose the whole internet is famous for bad feelings and flaming hiding behind anonymity, but classical music sites is where I've personally experienced behavior which people would never exhibit in person in a real-life group. It reminds me of road behavior, which also is made possible by anonymity, in that case relative rather than total.
the nature of internet forums, is inhuman. You don't know who you are talking to, you don't care about what you say, and words are often misleading, and can easily be misinterpreted by different people. It's not really anyone's fault, but you could've posted your question on "classical music for beginners" section instead of "general classical music discussion".
-Walter
Oh, give Chaszz a break! After all, he precipitated a fun discussion! (At least, I had fun. :)) And sometimes it's just more interesting to see what other people say. 8)
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on September 19, 2008, 04:58:01 PM
Ubloobideega.
Yes indeed. And proozinzantialophaleeffo.
Right. Who tried to read that there and make sense of it? Remember...you don't care what you say....I even had to edit the bugger
Mahler, the composer is practically impossible to imagine without Mahler, the conductor.
His mastery of the orchestra as instrument couldn't be other than a direct consequence of being at the helm of an orchestra for so many years, or at least a large factor. The lyricism in his works also must have been influenced by his immersion in opera. Apparently he didn't have the need to write his own. His vocal music (Song of the Earth, 8th Symphony, songs) are eminently lyric but not necessarily dramatic. His sound world apparently didn't need props and action.
ZB
The great Mahler biography by Henry-Louis de la Grange is highly recommended: I read it as it was released over 30 years ago, and it is not unlike reading a Tolstoy novel.
Another Henry, Henri Troyat, did in fact write a biography of Tolstoy, which reads like a Tolstoy novel! :o
No doubt Mahler the composer needed the conductor: he was able to test things e.g. one is reminded of his search for the right hammer sounds for the Sixth Symphony. Without his conducting position, such access would not have been possible.
Why not?
Quote from: M forever on September 23, 2008, 10:10:33 PM
Why not?
Well, how much does it cost to rent a symphony orchestra in Vienna to try out a new symphony? 0:)
As its conductor,
Mahler had an advantage in that!
Right. I am a composer, but I have no such access.
Heck, there's just been a four-day festival with ten or so Boston chamber ensembles performing nothing but music by living composers. I had no access there, either.
Quote from: karlhenning on September 24, 2008, 04:15:22 AM
Right. I am a composer, but I have no such access.
Heck, there's just been a four-day festival with ten or so Boston chamber ensembles performing nothing but music by living composers. I had no access there, either.
:'(
Quote from: kaarrrllll on September 24, 2008, 04:15:22 AM
Right. I am a composer, but I have no such access...
Neither did Charles Ives. :)
Quote from: Cato on September 24, 2008, 04:04:18 AM
Well, how much does it cost to rent a symphony orchestra in Vienna to try out a new symphony? 0:)
You don't have to rent a whole orchestra in order to try out effects like a hammer. There were/are many composers who did not conduct but who did get chances to try out stuff, even have their music tried and performed by established orchestras. They didn't need to be conductors for that. And Mahler couldn't just have his orchestra in Vienna play his stuff as he pleased either. It wasn't "his" orchestra anyway. Which is why all the symphonies were premiered elsewhere (except for the posthumous premieres conducted by Walter with the WP), wherever it could be organized.
Orchestras weren't actually that expensive to hire or put together back then, as orchestral musicians made far less money than they did today. The Wiener Verein für Musikalische Privataufführungen around Schönberg and is friends rented orchestras like the Wiener Symphoniker/Tonkünstler Orchester from time to time to try out and perform their works.
Mahler the composer certainly benefitted immensely from his experience as a conductor because he knew exactly how orchestras work and what they could do, but it didn't make it any easier in practical terms for him as a composer to get performed or to "try out" stuff. More likely, the contrary is true, because he was often accused of writing "Kapellmeistermusik", music thrown together from bits and pieces and chunks of this and that as it was expected from a professional Kapellmeister to fabricate sometimes, e.g. for incidental music scores.
Quote from: M forever on September 24, 2008, 08:01:28 PM
You don't have to rent a whole orchestra in order to try out effects like a hammer. There were/are many composers who did not conduct but who did get chances to try out stuff, even have their music tried and performed by established orchestras. They didn't need to be conductors for that. And Mahler couldn't just have his orchestra in Vienna play his stuff as he pleased either. It wasn't "his" orchestra anyway. Which is why all the symphonies were premiered elsewhere (except for the posthumous premieres conducted by Walter with the WP), wherever it could be organized.
Orchestras weren't actually that expensive to hire or put together back then, as orchestral musicians made far less money than they did today. The Wiener Verein für Musikalische Privataufführungen around Schönberg and is friends rented orchestras like the Wiener Symphoniker/Tonkünstler Orchester from time to time to try out and perform their works.
Mahler the composer certainly benefitted immensely from his experience as a conductor because he knew exactly how orchestras work and what they could do, but it didn't make it any easier in practical terms for him as a composer to get performed or to "try out" stuff. More likely, the contrary is true, because he was often accused of writing "Kapellmeistermusik", music thrown together from bits and pieces and chunks of this and that as it was expected from a professional Kapellmeister to fabricate sometimes, e.g. for incidental music scores.
My emphasis above.
To prove this of course, you would need an alternate universe, :o
where Mahler is
not a conductor, and then see how his music develops without the conducting side of musical life.
I never said that
Mahler treated the Vienna orchestras as his personal music box, merely that he had an advantage through his conducting reputation. And I would quibble just a little about the hammer test, since in fact for the
Sixth Symphony various kinds were tested, and when played in the hall fell short of the sound Mahler had imagined.
And the point by
Apostrophe is also quite right, and seems to be the opinion of most people here: the access to an orchestra was more than access to a lathe or band-saw.
What we wish for
Mahler, rather than more time as a composer via less time spent conducting, is another 20-30 years of life! 0:)
Quote from: Cato on September 25, 2008, 06:48:07 AM
What we wish for Mahler, rather than more time as a composer via less time spent conducting, is another 20-30 years of life! 0:)
And experiencing though the first world war? Are you mad, he might abandon tonality altogether!
Quote from: Walter on September 25, 2008, 08:24:35 AM
And experiencing thought the first world war? Are you mad, he might abandon tonality altogether!
Well, check the signs in that
Tenth Symphony, the massive 10-note chord in the central climax, not to mention the pre-Webernian aroma in the
Ninth Symphony! :o
Quote from: Cato on September 25, 2008, 09:03:43 AM
. . . not to mention the pre-Webernian aroma in the Ninth Symphony! :o
"Smells Like Teen Spirit"?
Quote from: Cato on September 25, 2008, 09:03:43 AM
pre-Webernian aroma in the Ninth Symphony! :o
I don't know what you mean by this. ???
Are you talking about the colorful, nearly pointilistic orchestration in the inner movements? (which aren't too different from what he's done earlier, anyways)
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on September 25, 2008, 11:29:02 AM
I don't know what you mean by this. ???
Are you talking about the colorful, nearly pointilistic orchestration in the inner movements? (which aren't too different from what he's done earlier, anyways)
The opening alone fits what I was talking about: look at the score, especially the first page or two. A two/four-note motif, scattered throughout the orchestra, and remains a unifying factor throughout, all the way to the final bars.
Hey
Karl! You a closet
Nirvana fan? :o
Quote from: Cato on September 25, 2008, 04:17:50 PM
The opening alone fits what I was talking about: look at the score, especially the first page or two. A two/four-note motif, scattered throughout the orchestra, and remains a unifying factor throughout, all the way to the final bars.
Ok.........i gotcha here!
Quote from: Cato on September 25, 2008, 04:17:50 PM
Hey Karl! You a closet Nirvana fan? :o
I don't think Karl's got it in him........ the closest he gets is Shostakovich........ but.......
Its called earning a living.
Plus, he had to keep Alma in nice lingerie so she could seduce his conducting students. :P
Quote from: RebLem on September 27, 2008, 02:50:35 AM
Its called earning a living.
That remark might have applied to R. Strauss ;D (or not), but the accounts by Alma and Bruno Walter both agree that he was as devoted to his performing as to his composing. Mahler seemed to treat each performance he led as a matter of life and death.
Quote from: ' on September 25, 2008, 01:36:59 AM
I think of that when I think of what Mahler said about sometimes a central job of the conductor is to not to interfere with the players, to stay out of their way.
I feel "sometimes" is the operative word. Mahler's scores are written so that in many places, it's clear he wants individual players and sections to take the lead--all those times one player either changes tempo or refuses to regardless of what the rest of the orchestra is doing!--but most who write about his rehearsals agree that he did plenty of "interfering"! :o ;D
Quote from: jochanaan on September 30, 2008, 01:09:44 PM
Mahler seemed to treat each performance he led as a matter of life and death.
Is there something that Mahler DIDN'T treat as a matter of life and death?
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on September 30, 2008, 01:18:53 PM
Is there something that Mahler DIDN'T treat as a matter of life and death?
Death.
Quote from: M forever on September 10, 2008, 05:52:38 PM
All theaters Mahler worked at where state theaters (that's why the Vienna Court Opera (Hofoper) was called the Vienna Court Opera). Except for the MET where he appeared, but not for very long.
Don't forget Carnegie Hall, which was not a state "theater" or hall either.
I wasn't talking about every single venue Mahler ever appeared in, but about the opera houses where he was employed, not other places where he gigged now and then.
He was hired as the music director for the NYPO which played in Carnegie Hall. That's not exactly a one night gig.
We know that, thanks, but that wasn't the question. The question was whether or not the theaters he worked at were mostly state-subsidized and whether or not the financial situation there influenced his choice of programming towards more "popular" works. That was back on p.1.