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The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: greg on October 01, 2008, 05:13:43 PM

Title: Angst in Music
Post by: greg on October 01, 2008, 05:13:43 PM
Which music has the most angst, and centers around it? What about music with:

lots of angst
contemplativeness
transcendence
world-weariness "Weltschmerz"
lack of refinement, self-control, completely indulgent
grandiose
makes you want to zone out and daydream
complexity
nostalgic longing?


(even non-classical suggestions are welcome).

Thanks.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: Josquin des Prez on October 01, 2008, 05:35:12 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on October 01, 2008, 05:13:43 PM
What about music with lots of angst, plus contemplativeness, transcendence, world-weariness "Weltschmerz", and nostalgic longing?

Beethoven?
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: mn dave on October 01, 2008, 05:36:15 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on October 01, 2008, 05:35:12 PM
Beethoven?

Got it in one. :)
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: greg on October 01, 2008, 05:41:04 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on October 01, 2008, 05:35:12 PM
Beethoven?
what by Beethoven?  ???
i don't hear any of that at all.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: mn dave on October 01, 2008, 05:43:59 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on October 01, 2008, 05:41:04 PM
what by Beethoven?  ???
i don't hear any of that at all.

::)  ::)   ::)  :'(
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: imperfection on October 01, 2008, 05:48:32 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on October 01, 2008, 05:41:04 PM
what by Beethoven?  ???
i don't hear any of that at all.

>:( ::) :-[ :-X >:D :'(
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: greg on October 01, 2008, 05:55:57 PM
Well, he doesn't exaggerate it quite like other composers do, but that's okay, because given the time period in which he worked, you could only go so far. There's a reason why no one wrote the Rite of Spring back then. I want complete lack of restraint as well......
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: Philoctetes on October 01, 2008, 05:57:00 PM
Schubert, he seems like he would be a whiner.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: greg on October 01, 2008, 06:03:43 PM
Quote from: Philoctetes on October 01, 2008, 05:57:00 PM
Schubert, he seems like he would be a whiner.
The Unfinished Symphony is a favorite!  8)


Anything new, though, that I haven't heard? A new composer? There has to be someone I'm overlooking......
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on October 01, 2008, 06:10:10 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on October 01, 2008, 06:03:43 PM
The Unfinished Symphony is a favorite!  8)


Anything new, though, that I haven't heard? A new composer? There has to be someone I'm overlooking......

Problem is, you're asking for several attributes that don't necessarily tie together. Angst and transcendence, complete lack of restraint and world-weariness all at once? At different parts of a composition, sure, and the obvious example is Mahler. But you knew that already.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: greg on October 01, 2008, 06:17:34 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on October 01, 2008, 06:10:10 PM
Problem is, you're asking for several attributes that don't necessarily tie together. Angst and transcendence, complete lack of restraint and world-weariness all at once? At different parts of a composition, sure, and the obvious example is Mahler. But you knew that already.
You guessed it!  ;)
But, really, is there anything else by other composers close to that? Probably 20th century or any contemporary composers that I may have overlooked......
The closest thing I've found is Gorecki's 3rd Symphony, although there's not much angst. World-weariness and transcendence could nearly describe the whole symphony..... i haven't heard anything else yet by him that equals the impact of that symphony. (i've heard this mentioned in two other places, somewhere on the internet, btw, so i'm not the only one who sees a resemblance)

What about in popular music? Anything underground?
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: Josquin des Prez on October 01, 2008, 06:48:15 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on October 01, 2008, 05:41:04 PM
what by Beethoven?  ???

I don't know, his entire late period? Did that rock offer proper lodging?  ;D

Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on October 01, 2008, 05:55:57 PM
Well, he doesn't exaggerate it quite like other composers do

I don't recall you ever mentioning exaggeration or excess, merely, that the adjectives you listed be present. And they are.

Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on October 01, 2008, 05:55:57 PMThere's a reason why no one wrote the Rite of Spring back then.

It was Stravinsky who referred to the Grosse Fugue as "eternally modern". Not that i necessarily agree with him. I dislike modernity with all my being, and i think Beethoven was much better then that, but i can see why most people consider his late works to be the first breakthrough in the development of modern art (as erroneous that interpretation may be. Modern art is a distortion of what Beethoven and his self proclaimed followers were attempting to do).

Seriously Greg, you need to get over the whole modernist zealotry. There's much more to art then perversion and decadence. 
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: greg on October 01, 2008, 07:00:16 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on October 01, 2008, 06:48:15 PM
I don't know, his entire late period? Did that rock offer proper lodging?  ;D

I don't recall you ever mentioning exaggeration or excess, merely, that the adjectives you listed be present. And they are.

It was Stravinsky who referred to the Grosse Fugue as "eternally modern". Not that i necessarily agree with him. I dislike modernity with all my being, and i think Beethoven was much better then that, but i can see why most people consider his late works to be the first breakthrough in the development of modern art (as erroneous that interpretation may be. Modern art is a distortion of what Beethoven and his self proclaimed followers were attempting to do).

Seriously Greg, you need to get over the whole modernist zealotry. There's much more to art then perversion and decadence. 

I updated my list, so it's more specific.
I've listened to the Grosse Fugue twice- the first time I liked it, the second time, those repeating rhythms just got to me and started annoying the heck out of me.
The 9th Symphony I've also listened to two or three time, and it did nothing but bore me, painfully.
Once you have a bad experience with a composer, it's hard to get yourself to repeat what may be another bad experience. (not to say i'd give give up on him)
I don't get hte last part of the post. What was he attempting to do?
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on October 01, 2008, 07:02:41 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on October 01, 2008, 06:48:15 PM
There's much more to art then perversion and decadence. 

There is?
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: Brian on October 01, 2008, 07:25:39 PM
You've been listening to the wrong Beethoven. The Ninth is long and architecturally less concise than the Fifth, for one thing. For most of the attributes on your list, I would seek out some of his piano sonatas, especially the last three. I would also look up the Sibelius Seventh, if you haven't already, along with several other of his symphonies, and the Brahms Symphonies Nos 3 and 4, and also J.W. Kalliwoda's Fifth Symphony (CPO album, with Das Neue Orchester and conductor Christoph Spering), which is like Schubert except with genuine tragedy afoot. Langgaard's late works. Rachmaninov.

Oh ... and Wagner.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: greg on October 01, 2008, 07:36:01 PM
Quote from: Brian on October 01, 2008, 07:25:39 PM
You've been listening to the wrong Beethoven. The Ninth is long and architecturally less concise than the Fifth, for one thing. For most of the attributes on your list, I would seek out some of his piano sonatas, especially the last three. I would also look up the Sibelius Seventh, if you haven't already, along with several other of his symphonies, and the Brahms Symphonies Nos 3 and 4, and also J.W. Kalliwoda's Fifth Symphony (CPO album, with Das Neue Orchester and conductor Christoph Spering), which is like Schubert except with genuine tragedy afoot. Langgaard's late works. Rachmaninov.

Oh ... and Wagner.
Good recommendations, thanks.
Beethoven's last 3 sonatas- i'll check those out.
Sibelius 7th- listened t oonce, didn't like it. I'll try again.
Brahms 3 and 4- some of my favorite symphnoies, for a long time now  :)
J.W. Kalliwoda's Fifth Symphony- ooh, this one sounds new.
Laangard- i've heard a little of him which i liked, but i don't think it was anything late......
Rachmaninov- hmmmmmmm i do see a bit of that in him, but to me he's somewhat refined and doesn't have the huge "punch" in his music- it laments, but doesn't die.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: M forever on October 01, 2008, 07:36:46 PM
"Weltschmerz" can not be translated as "world-weariness".
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: greg on October 01, 2008, 07:38:30 PM
Quote from: M forever on October 01, 2008, 07:36:46 PM
"Weltschmerz" can not be translated as "world-weariness".
then wikipedia must be wrong. What is a better translation?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltschmerz
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: M forever on October 01, 2008, 08:11:26 PM
No, Wikipedia is always right. I must be wrong then.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 01, 2008, 08:23:44 PM
Getting back to the OP, Wagner is the composer that first comes to my mind.




Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: canninator on October 02, 2008, 12:45:17 AM
IMO the Passacaglia from Shostakovich VC1 matches the criteria you have stipulated.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: marvinbrown on October 02, 2008, 12:56:37 AM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on October 01, 2008, 05:13:43 PM
Which music has the most angst, and centers around it? What about music with:

lots of angst
contemplativeness
transcendence
world-weariness "Weltschmerz"
lack of refinement, self-control, completely indulgent
grandiose
makes you want to zone out and daydream until you stare into another dimension, and see heaven
complexity
nostalgic longing?


(even non-classical suggestions are welcome).

Thanks.

  TRISTAN UND ISOLDE  You won't find a better candidate to fit the bill!

  marvin
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 02, 2008, 02:24:18 AM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on October 01, 2008, 05:13:43 PM
(even non-classical suggestions are welcome).

Except for transcendence, Roxy Music's dirge "A Song for Europe" fits all your requirements.  When Bryan Ferry starts singing in French (after English and Latin), it's completely over-the-top 8)

I sent you a low quality mp3 to sample. If you're not familiar with Roxy Music, I should warn you that Ferry's vocal stylings can be an acquired taste--but give him a chance.

Sarge
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 02, 2008, 03:03:15 AM
Quote from: M forever on October 01, 2008, 08:11:26 PM
No, Wikipedia is always right. I must be wrong then.

;D ;D
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 02, 2008, 03:05:55 AM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on October 01, 2008, 07:38:30 PM
then wikipedia must be wrong. What is a better translation?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltschmerz

M's being M. Ignore him. The Schöffler-Weis dictionary defines Weltschmerz as world-weariness. So does Leo, the online German dictionary. But of course weariness doesn't mean tired in this sense, but rather pessimism or a hopeless feeling: a sentimental pessimism or melancholy over the state of the world.

Sarge
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: greg on October 02, 2008, 03:08:18 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 02, 2008, 02:24:18 AM
Except for transcendence, Roxy Music's dirge "A Song for Europe" fits all your requirements.  When Bryan Ferry starts singing in French (after English and Latin), it's completely over-the-top 8)

I sent you a low quality mp3 to sample. If you're not familiar with Roxy Music, I should warn you that Ferry's vocal stylings can be an acquired taste--but give him a chance.

Sarge
Hm, you did? Well, sounds interesting.  :)


Quote from: marvinbrown on October 02, 2008, 12:56:37 AM
  TRISTAN UND ISOLDE  You won't find a better candidate to fit the bill!

  marvin
I'm going to have to listen to that again. Went through it once a few years ago....... only familiar with the ending right now, which leaves me speechless every time I listen.


Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 02, 2008, 03:05:55 AM
M's being M. Ignore him. The Schöffler-Weis dictionary defines Weltschmerz as world-weariness. So does Leo, the online German dictionary. But of course weariness doesn't mean tired in this sense, but rather pessimism or a hopeless feeling: a sentimental pessimism or melancholy over the state of the world.

Sarge
:)
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: pjme on October 02, 2008, 03:15:19 AM
Schönberg, ofcourse!

Begleitmusik zu einer Lichtspielszene (Drohende Gefahr, Angst, Katastrophe) opus 34 / 1929/30

Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: Florestan on October 02, 2008, 03:22:11 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on October 01, 2008, 06:48:15 PM
II dislike modernity with all my being, [...]. Modern art is a distortion of what Beethoven and his self proclaimed followers were attempting to do).

Seriously Greg, you need to get over the whole modernist zealotry. There's much more to art then perversion and decadence. 


Debussy, Ravel, Bartok, Enescu, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Stravinsky --- pervert and decadent?  ???
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 02, 2008, 03:23:21 AM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on October 02, 2008, 03:08:18 AM
Hm, you did?

Yeah, to your gmail addy that's in your profile. Did you get it?

Sarge

Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on October 02, 2008, 04:25:58 AM
Quote from: pjme on October 02, 2008, 03:15:19 AM
Schönberg, ofcourse!

Begleitmusik zu einer Lichtspielszene (Drohende Gefahr, Angst, Katastrophe) opus 34 / 1929/30



And Berg, of course: the Three Pieces, Wozzeck, the Lyric Suite, the Violin Concerto.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: karlhenning on October 02, 2008, 04:29:31 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on October 01, 2008, 05:35:12 PM
Beethoven?

No, I don't hear Angst in Beethoven.  A stylized manner of struggle, yes.  That music of Beethoven's which sings to me most directly (something of a different matter to the music I like best axis), the emotional tone is a great distance from Angst.

The first movement of the Shostakovich Tenth?  Probably too much force and drive/purpose for it to fall within the category of Angst.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: karlhenning on October 02, 2008, 04:29:54 AM
Quote from: pjme on October 02, 2008, 03:15:19 AM
Schönberg, ofcourse!

Begleitmusik zu einer Lichtspielszene (Drohende Gefahr, Angst, Katastrophe) opus 34 / 1929/30

Perfect!

Erwartung, as well, I should think.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: pjme on October 02, 2008, 07:24:13 AM
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/CDUCoverArt/Music/Large/superd_1013147.jpg)

Hindemith's Sancta Susanna and Mörder, Hoffnung der Frauen

Prokofiev's Fiery angel

Dallapicola's Il prigioniero

After : La torture par l'espérance ("Torture by Hope") from the collection Nouveaux contes cruels by the French writer Auguste Villiers de l'Isle-Adam and from La Légende d'Ulenspiegel et de Lamme Goedzak by Charles de Coster. Dallapiccola composed Il prigioniero in the period of 1944-1948.The work contains seven parts and lasts about 50 minutes.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: Guido on October 02, 2008, 09:02:00 AM
Shostakovich seems to be the obvious closest match to what you are saying... Symphony no.10 (or any of the late symphonies), string concertos...

QuoteNo, Wikipedia is always right. I must be wrong then.

;D
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: Guido on October 02, 2008, 09:02:35 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on October 01, 2008, 07:02:41 PM
There is?

I was surprised at this assertion too.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: karlhenning on October 02, 2008, 09:11:41 AM
Quote from: Guido on October 02, 2008, 09:02:00 AM
Shostakovich seems to be the obvious closest match to what you are saying... Symphony no.10 (or any of the late symphonies), string concertos...

Certainly the blistering passacaglia from the Eighth Symphony.  Though, again: is it Angst?  There's a pretty serious mega-simplification, if we take any of the major works, with their mercurial variety of tone and gesture, and just slap the posterboard label Angst on them.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: karlhenning on October 02, 2008, 09:12:27 AM
Quote from: canninator on October 02, 2008, 12:45:17 AM
IMO the Passacaglia from Shostakovich VC1 matches the criteria you have stipulated.

A fine suggestion.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: Guido on October 02, 2008, 09:18:42 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 02, 2008, 09:11:41 AM
Certainly the blistering passacaglia from the Eighth Symphony.  Though, again: is it Angst?  There's a pretty serious mega-simplification, if we take any of the major works, with their mercurial variety of tone and gesture, and just slap the posterboard label Angst on them.

Of course. He listed a few other words and descriptors which I thought also fitted Shostakovich though. But there's only going to be one Mahler (a composer whose appeal still eludes me...  :-[)
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: karlhenning on October 02, 2008, 10:28:52 AM
Largely on the same page, Guido.  I've lately come to like the Mahler Ninth Symphony a good deal, but that's still exceptional for me among the symphonies.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: greg on October 02, 2008, 01:44:03 PM
Quote from: pjme on October 02, 2008, 03:15:19 AM
Schönberg, ofcourse!

Begleitmusik zu einer Lichtspielszene (Drohende Gefahr, Angst, Katastrophe) opus 34 / 1929/30


Some Schoenberg does, some doesn't. I don't think the Piano Concerto, for example, is very intense, to me. Same with Pierrot Lunaire.
There's lots of sides to Schoenberg that hint at categories I've listed..... same as Berg.


As for Shostakovich...
Quote from: karlhenning on October 02, 2008, 04:29:31 AM


The first movement of the Shostakovich Tenth?  Probably too much force and drive/purpose for it to fall within the category of Angst.
That's one of things that won me over, at least. There's something about this movement, the first movement of the 6th and the 8th which is just special to listen to in the car while driving at night. I think they fit the descriptions pretty well, although I'm guessing you see something something else to see in them, rpboably. Same for the
Quote from: karlhenning on October 02, 2008, 10:28:52 AM
b]Mahler Ninth Symphony[/b]

Just took another listen to the Prelude to Tristan und Isolde, after maybe two years.  ;D
But yeah, EXACTLY what I'm looking for, Marvin's completely right.
Also, I've been obsessed with this video for a couple of months now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/6XlmJtnzwkY
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: greg on October 02, 2008, 02:22:18 PM
Quote*

Tristan und Isolde is also notable for its use of harmonic suspension -- a device used by a composer to create musical tension by exposing the listener to a series of prolonged unfinished cadences, thereby inspiring a desire and expectation on the part of the listener for musical resolution.[12] While suspension is a common compositional device (in use since before the Renaissance), Wagner was one of the first composers to employ harmonic suspension over the course of an entire work. The cadences first introduced in the Prelude are not resolved until the finale of Act 3, and, on a number of occasions throughout the opera, Wagner primes the audience for a musical climax with a series of chords building in tension -- only to deliberately defer the anticipated resolution. One particular example of this technique occurs at the end of the love duet in Act 2 ("Wie sie fassen, wie sie lassen...") where Tristan and Isolde gradually build up to a musical (perhaps sexual) climax, only to have the expected resolution destroyed by the dissonant interruption of Kurwenal ("Rette Dich, Tristan!"). The long-awaited completion of this cadence series arrives only in the final Liebestod, during which the musical resolution (at "In des Welt-Atems wehendem All") coincides with the moment of Isolde's death.[13]
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: Guido on October 02, 2008, 02:24:37 PM
Oh yes, if you haven't heard Wagner, that's where to go!
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: Guido on October 02, 2008, 02:29:13 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 02, 2008, 10:28:52 AM
Largely on the same page, Guido.  I've lately come to like the Mahler Ninth Symphony a good deal, but that's still exceptional for me among the symphonies.

Yes, this one has struck me the most too, especially the first movement (as Luke said it would!). I've been trying my best with the rest, but it's not sticking... I'll keep trying though - next on the listening pile is Das Lied Von Der Erde. There must be a reason that there's 20 people on this forum with Mahler in their screen name!
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: marvinbrown on October 02, 2008, 03:25:53 PM
Quote from: Guido on October 02, 2008, 02:24:37 PM
Oh yes, if you haven't heard Wagner, that's where to go!

  Absolutely! Tristan und Isolde is remarkable in that regard.  The torment that Tristan goes through at the opening of the 3rd Act as he is waiting for Isolde's ship to arrive is utterly unbearable.  The music echoes this,  it is dark and profound,  I find myself transfixed, drawn into Tristan's emotional pain which never seems to end.  This goes on for quite some time, there is no salvation,  if that is not angst I do not know what is!

  The whole opera is built of the idea of forbidden love and passion, two forbidden lovers whose sexual attraction for each other are so strong that it can only be consummated in death- what a terrifyingly exhausting concept!  Tantric sex anyone??

  marvin
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: greg on October 02, 2008, 03:45:39 PM
Quote from: Guido on October 02, 2008, 02:24:37 PM
Oh yes, if you haven't heard Wagner, that's where to go!
I've heard a few other of his operas, only once each, so I'm just not familiar enough with his music- but yeah, saying I don't know any of his music is pretty much the truth.  8)



Quote from: Guido on October 02, 2008, 02:29:13 PM
Yes, this one has struck me the most too, especially the first movement (as Luke said it would!). I've been trying my best with the rest, but it's not sticking... I'll keep trying though - next on the listening pile is Das Lied Von Der Erde. There must be a reason that there's 20 people on this forum with Mahler in their screen name!
Das Lied is hard for me- despite it being known as one of his heaviest and angstful works!  :o
The last movement I've forced myself to listen to several times about a month ago, and it did grow on me. The hard part is listening to the squeaky oboe and the offbeat, jerky rhythms.... The other movements I haven't grown to like because I just haven't listened to much.....

As for the 9th, I don't know what to say. Maybe keep in mind that the Adagio is divided up into two seperate parts which alternate, and have their own motives? And..... don't let the repetition of the motives get to you, and also, remember, the ending is supposed to be LONG..... it's like death, or fading into the afterlife or whatever. I'm sure you already know all that, but keeping tall that in mind helped very much during my first week of listening to it (i listened about 5 days straight while spending hours trying to do something in the same forest are in Final Fantasy 7). Good memories......  ;D



Quote from: marvinbrown on October 02, 2008, 03:25:53 PM
  Absolutely! Tristan und Isolde is remarkable in that regard.  The torment that Tristan goes through at the opening of the 3rd Act as he is waiting for Isolde's ship to arrive is utterly unbearable.  The music echoes this,  it is dark and profound,  I find myself transfixed, drawn into Tristan's emotional pain which never seems to end.  This goes on for quite some time, there is no salvation,  if that is not angst I do not know what is!

  The whole opera is built of the idea of forbidden love and passion, two forbidden lovers whose sexual attraction for each other are so strong that it can only be consummated in death- what a terrifyingly exhausting concept!  Tantric sex anyone??

  marvin
Marvin, or anyone else,
Quote
Wagner was one of the first composers to employ harmonic suspension over the course of an entire work
Obviously, after wondering where the heck Mahler got his harmonic ideas from, this is definitely the place.  I'm just wondering, where did he get the idea to keep on using those harmonic suspensions so much? Is it really true that there's no work before this one where they're used nearly as much?
I mean, that B maj with the added C#, which goes back to B is one of the main ideas that Mahler takes up, except compared to the very limited amount of Wagner I've heard, he uses more distant modulations- very frequently mixing major and minor, etc. which is almost as magical as the harmonic suspension.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 02, 2008, 10:00:15 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on October 02, 2008, 03:45:39 PM

Das Lied is hard for me- despite it being known as one of his heaviest and angstful works!  :o
The last movement I've forced myself to listen to several times about a month ago, and it did grow on me. The hard part is listening to the squeaky oboe and the offbeat, jerky rhythms.... The other movements I haven't grown to like because I just haven't listened to much.....

I don't think angst is really the word for Das Lied, I must say..... whatever, I'm surprised you have difficulty with the 'squeaky oboe' here, though, given that you're such a Penderecki/Xenakis type of listener  ???
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: Superhorn on October 03, 2008, 07:10:40 AM
    Josquin,  why  are  you  so  hostile  to  "modernity"?   And  what "modern"  composers?   Schoenberg,  Berg,  Webern?  Stockhausen,  Carter,  Boulez? 
   Copland?  Do  you  really  think  that  only  the   music  of  past  centuries  is  any  good?  How  much  late  20th  or  early  21  century  music  have  you  heard?  How  about  Philip  Glass,  John  Adams,  John  Corigliano,  Thomas  Ades,  Kaaia  Saariaho  etc,  who  have  been  widely  performed  in  our  time   and  with  considerable  success?
   All  music  of  the  past  was  once  modern.  Beethoven  was  a  radical, Avant-Garde  composer  once.  Many  found  his  music  baffling.  And  Berlioz,  Wagner,  Bruckner, Mahler, Richard  Strauss,  Bruckner, Stravinsky, Debussy, Bartok, etc. 
   There  were  those  who  condemned  Monteverdi  for  his  innovations.
   I  don't  mind  angst  in  music  if  it's  done  well.  Mahler,  Schoenberg  etc  are  masters  of  it.  But  the  problem  with  Mahler  is  that  it's  so  easy  for  conductors  to  exaggerate  his  hyperemotionalism   and   turn  some  people  off  to  his  music.  If  they  show  a  little  restraint  and  also  empahsize   the  more  positive  elements  in  Mahler  it's  a  good  idea.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: MDL on October 03, 2008, 07:45:13 AM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on October 01, 2008, 05:13:43 PM
Which music has the most angst, and centers around it? What about music with:

lots of angst
contemplativeness
transcendence
world-weariness "Weltschmerz"
lack of refinement, self-control, completely indulgent
grandiose
makes you want to zone out and daydream
complexity
nostalgic longing?


I'm surprised that Mahler made such a late showing on this thread if we're searching out music with the above qualities.
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: karlhenning on October 03, 2008, 11:08:07 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 02, 2008, 10:00:15 PM
I don't think angst is really the word for Das Lied, I must say

Nor me. I mean, nor I.

[ Well, both nor me and nor I, I suppose. ]
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: greg on October 03, 2008, 11:56:37 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on October 03, 2008, 07:10:40 AM
    Josquin,  why  are  you  so  hostile  to  "modernity"?   And  what "modern"  composers?   Schoenberg,  Berg,  Webern?  Stockhausen,  Carter,  Boulez? 
   Copland?  Do  you  really  think  that  only  the   music  of  past  centuries  is  any  good?  How  much  late  20th  or  early  21  century  music  have  you  heard?  How  about  Philip  Glass,  John  Adams,  John  Corigliano,  Thomas  Ades,  Kaaia  Saariaho  etc,  who  have  been  widely  performed  in  our  time   and  with  considerable  success?
   All  music  of  the  past  was  once  modern.  Beethoven  was  a  radical, Avant-Garde  composer  once.  Many  found  his  music  baffling.  And  Berlioz,  Wagner,  Bruckner, Mahler, Richard  Strauss,  Bruckner, Stravinsky, Debussy, Bartok, etc. 
   There  were  those  who  condemned  Monteverdi  for  his  innovations.
   I  don't  mind  angst  in  music  if  it's  done  well.  Mahler,  Schoenberg  etc  are  masters  of  it.  But  the  problem  with  Mahler  is  that  it's  so  easy  for  conductors  to  exaggerate  his  hyperemotionalism   and   turn  some  people  off  to  his  music.  If  they  show  a  little  restraint  and  also  empahsize   the  more  positive  elements  in  Mahler  it's  a  good  idea.
He likes the 2nd Viennese, but that's about as far as he goes for some reason. Don't even talk with thim about minimalism.  ;D

Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: Superhorn on October 04, 2008, 07:16:50 AM
    An  opera   that is   chock  full  of  angst  and  sheer  terror  is   Prokofiev's  harrowing  "The  Fiery  Angel".  This  is  without  a  doubt  the  weirdest,  most  disturbing  opera  ever  written.  It's  like  a  horrible  nightmare  set  to  music.
   In  16th  century  Germany,  Renata  is  a  profoundly  disturbed  young  woman  and  a  religious  mystic  obsessed  with   her  chilhood   experiences  of  an  angel   of  fire  which  was  her  "imaginary"  companion.  She  is  determined  to  find  his  human  form  on  earth,  and  becomes  involved  with  sorcery  and  the  blackest  of  black  magic.
   She  is  tormented  by  demons,  which  may  be either  real  or  imagined.
  Her   panic  attacks  are  depicted  in   the  most  hair-raising  music  you  have  ever  heard. 
   Ruprecht,  a  wandering  knight  errant,  meets  her  and  falls  desperately  in  love  with  her,  and  also  gets  involved  with  black  magic  and  demonology.  He's  desperately  in  love  with  her,  but  she  tolerates  him  only  as  a  friend,  and  they  have  a  sick,  tormented  relationship.
   Eventually,  Renata  retires  to  a  convent,  but  the   nuns   are  being  disturbed  by  weird,  demonic  incidents.  An  inquisitor  is  brought  in  for  an  exorcism,  but  it  goes  horribly  out  of  control, and  the  nuns  become  demonized.  The  inquisitor  sentences  Renata  to  be  tortured  and  burnt  at  the  stake.
   The  Cds  with  Gergiev   and  Neeme  Jarvi  conducting  respectively  on  Phillips  and  DG  may  be  hard  to  find,  and  the  original  mono  recording  from  the  50s  sung  in  French  is  available  from  arkivmusic.com.  I'm  not  sure  about  the  DVD.   Try  it  if  you dare-   but  be  warned ;  this  may  actually  cause  nightmares !
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: Bunny on October 04, 2008, 08:02:01 AM
Angst in music?  For me Bartok's Piano Concerto 1 feels like the racing heartbeat of a full fledged panic attack!  Mahler's 6th also is filled with anxiety (I'm surprised no one has mentioned that one). 

When I was very young, Schumann's Knecht Rupert seemed like the most foreboding piece imaginable.  It was the background for my nightmares. ;)
Title: Re: Angst in Music
Post by: greg on October 04, 2008, 03:06:46 PM
Quote from: Superhorn on October 04, 2008, 07:16:50 AM
    An  opera   that is   chock  full  of  angst  and  sheer  terror  is   Prokofiev's  harrowing  "The  Fiery  Angel".  This  is  without  a  doubt  the  weirdest,  most  disturbing  opera  ever  written.  It's  like  a  horrible  nightmare  set  to  music.
   In  16th  century  Germany,  Renata  is  a  profoundly  disturbed  young  woman  and  a  religious  mystic  obsessed  with   her  chilhood   experiences  of  an  angel   of  fire  which  was  her  "imaginary"  companion.  She  is  determined  to  find  his  human  form  on  earth,  and  becomes  involved  with  sorcery  and  the  blackest  of  black  magic.
   She  is  tormented  by  demons,  which  may  be either  real  or  imagined.
  Her   panic  attacks  are  depicted  in   the  most  hair-raising  music  you  have  ever  heard. 
   Ruprecht,  a  wandering  knight  errant,  meets  her  and  falls  desperately  in  love  with  her,  and  also  gets  involved  with  black  magic  and  demonology.  He's  desperately  in  love  with  her,  but  she  tolerates  him  only  as  a  friend,  and  they  have  a  sick,  tormented  relationship.
   Eventually,  Renata  retires  to  a  convent,  but  the   nuns   are  being  disturbed  by  weird,  demonic  incidents.  An  inquisitor  is  brought  in  for  an  exorcism,  but  it  goes  horribly  out  of  control, and  the  nuns  become  demonized.  The  inquisitor  sentences  Renata  to  be  tortured  and  burnt  at  the  stake.
   The  Cds  with  Gergiev   and  Neeme  Jarvi  conducting  respectively  on  Phillips  and  DG  may  be  hard  to  find,  and  the  original  mono  recording  from  the  50s  sung  in  French  is  available  from  arkivmusic.com.  I'm  not  sure  about  the  DVD.   Try  it  if  you dare-   but  be  warned ;  this  may  actually  cause  nightmares !

I've been watching this video a few times the last few days:
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/MgDTLHnMKRM

It was weird to be able to follow it so closely, since I'm familiar with the 3rd Symphony. It's like, "I've never heard this before!" And then I hum along and anticipate what comes next, and there it is!  :D
But Prokofiev isn't a composer whose idiom is "angstful", I don't think. It sounds too confident, too mischievous.... he wasn't a guy who was always worried excessively, and bad stuff didn't bother him too much, and this is reflected in his music (heck, at the end of his life, he kept on writing operas he thought the government might like, but they didn't, so he just kept on writing anyways  ;D ).
The closest things in his output I can think of that could be described as "angstful" would be the second theme of the first movement of the 7th sonata, and a few others, like maybe some of the sixth sonata or the second piano concerto.... but even then.......
I guess the word is abit vague, anyways.....