Countdown to Extinction: The 2016 Presidential Election

[Madiel]

I am not going to repeat all the incriminating evidence against Hillary Clinton. It's all there for anyone who cares to read it. More than self-interest or even money (though she has plenty of it), though, she is driven by a craving for POWER. She would have not stuck by Billy-boy, moreover harassing his victims, if he weren't the ticket to getting into the White House yet again. She is in every way, Lady Macbeth, who will do anything, say anything to get that crown on her head.

I think it's safe to say that anyone who runs for President of the United States has an interest in power. This is hardly a point of distinction between candidates.

The rest of my response... well, I'm not going to bother repeating it either.

[zamyrabyrd]

For the sake of discussion, call this "essentially true, but rhetorically exaggerated" with the supporting exhibit your curious repetition of the substantially debunked "she ripped off the White House furniture!" canard.
It is no argument at all to vote for El Tupé, because exactly the same, and worse, is true of him, only without decades' accrual of political grudge.
"... and worse," e.g.:  the white supremacist cast to his entire effort; the blatant abuse of Trump Foundation monies; the locker-room tone to his discourse; a narcissist who tweets hateful rubbish about a Latina model at 3:20 AM; who instead of apologizing for contemptible slurs against a Gold Star family, claims that he "made sacifices, too!"
&c., &c, &c.  This, too, is out there for anyone to read.

Isn't it a little early in the morning for a rant? Where did I repeat the issues of the furniture, which is not something I made up but is cross referenced? The Clinton's returned what they "thought" they could keep. Oh gosh, aren't they disingenuous, like it was a "mistake" to have a private server for sensitive top-class information?

Anyone who is on the payroll of Saudi Arabia could not claim to support women's rights. It is bad enough in most Arab and Moslem countries where there are honor killings for even suspicion of talking to a guy, but over there they need to be chaperoned going out of the house, and moreover, not permitted to drive.

It is an argument when there is a binary choice (forget about those on the margins). I said before I care less for the personality (let's admit it, public figures are generally narcissistic) but for policy. Pence had to water down the protection of religion act in Indiana otherwise he would be a cipher by now. However, Trump did promise to attend to the issue of whittling down of religious freedom by
special interest groups by protecting the First Amendment. 

As for the former Miss Venezuela, Hillary first mentioned her name as a sleaze reference (like she herself never cussed anyone out). Offhand, DT mentioned that she did appear in a sleaze film that would have been buried in the internet if Hillary didn't bring it up. I'm sorry but I know these types of women too well. They are provocative and then play "wounded bird" when getting their just desserts.

[drogulus]

Presumably, it will mean that Poland and other European countries will have to make their own security arrangements. How is this bad for the people of the USA?

This is the value of the Trump campaign: in his crude vulgar way, he raises the issues that are sitting there in plain sight, but which our elites don't want to touch. Case in point: why are we providing an ever-expanding range of security guarantees to European and Asian countries that are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves? And do you sleep more soundly, knowing that great military powers like Albania and Montenegro are looking out for us?

     Why are we providing security guarantees in Europe and Asia?

     Because the countries we are protecting can't take care of themselves without the guarantees. Russia and China have too much military power and aggressive intentions.

     Why is it our job to provide the guarantees?

     It's the price you pay for "we're no. 1" or "great again". The maritime superpower is the guarantor of the world system. In order to have the advantages this system bestows on us we police the system for everyone in a reasonably fair way.

[Mister Sharpe]

Pence Relaxes Onstage By Imagining Entire Debate Audience Burning In Hell :

http://www.theonion.com/article/pence-relaxes-onstage-imagining-entire-debate-audi-54094

[Florestan]

why are we providing an ever-expanding range of security guarantees to European and Asian countries that are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves?

That´s precisely the issue: Poland, the Baltic States and Romania are not perfectly capable of taking care of themselves. Their whole military power put together is no match for Russia´s.

Now, as to why should the USA guarantee their security, drogulus has already partially answered. Another reason is that the last time those countries were left defenseless a world war broke which eventually swept the USA too.

[Karl Henning]

Pence was being flagrantly dishonest. He did say, "I think it's inarguable that Vladimir Putin has been a stronger leader in his country than Barack Obama has been in this country." Trump really did suggest that Japan and South Korea should get nukes. Pence was simply lying.

And given that VP debates don't generally swing presidential elections, it's perverse to look at Pence's relatively solid tone and temperament during the debate and conclude that he's going to win voters over. That's just theater criticism.

All that being said, Pence had a different task from trying to help his current ticket. If and when Trump loses the general election, Pence immediately becomes a major candidate for the 2020 GOP nomination. He's a national figure with huge name recognition and he hasn't earned the kind of intra-party enemies of a Marco Rubio or a Ted Cruz. Moreover, he has a personal connection to Trump voters and the potential to win them over.

If you view the debate from the vantage point of a Republican donor or party elite, weighing how the party is going to recover after the disaster that is Donald Trump, Pence did exceptionally well. He delivered exactly the kind of performance a donor like that would be searching for. He hit Trumpian themes on immigration and national security, and showed unerring loyalty to the ticket. He can win over the voters who denied GOP elites the nomination this year.

[Karl Henning]

Tim Kaine brought up real Donald Trump quote after real Donald Trump quote, and Pence simply invented a world where they were never said, where they never mattered. His primary defense of his running mate was that he has not said or done any of the things he's said and done over the past year. That's appalling.


And, you know, I think there are people here who just may live in that same invented world.

[Karl Henning]

Thank God, he does not have the self-control of a two-year-old.

Donald Trump made it 6 minutes into the VP debate before tweeting something bizarre

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

     Why are we providing security guarantees in Europe and Asia?

     Because the countries we are protecting can't take care of themselves without the guarantees. Russia and China have too much military power and aggressive intentions.

     Why is it our job to provide the guarantees?

     It's the price you pay for "we're no. 1" or "great again". The maritime superpower is the guarantor of the world system. In order to have the advantages this system bestows on us we police the system for everyone in a reasonably fair way.

Estimated GDP (nominal) of the European Union, 2016: $16.48 trillion
Estimated GDP (nominal) of Russia, 2016: $1.1 trillion

They're not even close. Any bloc with as much money as the EU should be able to take care of itself.

"We're no. 1" means you waste money building schools in places like Afghanistan while schools back home fall apart.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Thank God, he does not have the self-control of a two-year-old.

Donald Trump made it 6 minutes into the VP debate before tweeting something bizarre

I wonder for this Sunday if Madame Secretary can just duct-tape her own mouth shut and let Trump talk the entire time and still come out ahead since sooner or later he will say something straight from left field.

[Karl Henning]

I wonder for this Sunday if Madame Secretary can just duct-tape her own mouth shut and let Trump talk the entire time and still come out ahead since sooner or later he will say something straight from left field.

I'm sure she will happily let him talk, partly because of the quality of what comes forth, and partly because of the contrast in demeanor that draws from his constant petulant interruptions.

[Brian]

There are now rumors that Pence doing better in his debate, than Trump did in his, is making #1 a little jealous...

[drogulus]

Estimated GDP (nominal) of the European Union, 2016: $16.48 trillion
Estimated GDP (nominal) of Russia, 2016: $1.1 trillion

They're not even close. Any bloc with as much money as the EU should be able to take care of itself.

"We're no. 1" means you waste money building schools in places like Afghanistan while schools back home fall apart.

     Yes, Germany could have become a military superpower long ago. NATO involved a pair of guarantees, we will defend Europe from Germany, and we will defend Germany from Russia. My view is that's the only way it could have worked to get everyone on the same side. Is this arrangement obsolete? I don't think so.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I'm sure she will happily let him talk, partly because of the quality of what comes forth, and partly because of the contrast in demeanor that draws from his constant petulant interruptions.

Yes, you can tell from the glee on her face at times during the first debate that she couldn't believe her own good fortune.

[drogulus]

     Japan is going to remilitarize. I think they have to.  I want them to. I also want to keep them within the alliance system, which means Japan knowing we won't abandon our "obsolete" alliance with them. The increased militarization of our partners implicit the the present situation will only be amplified as we seek to reduce our role. I prefer keeping as much influence over these developments as we can manage. This will require the kind of skill one candidate possesses and the other does not.

[Jo498]

     Yes, Germany could have become a military superpower long ago. NATO involved a pair of guarantees, we will defend Europe from Germany, and we will defend Germany from Russia. My view is that's the only way it could have worked to get everyone on the same side. Is this arrangement obsolete? I don't think so.

It is not that simple. A reduction of the armed forces was a condition for the German unification in 1990. These treaties could maybe be re-negotiated but it does not seem likely. After all, there was a certain superpower that yielded an important country within its influence to the NATO sphere and Russia would have to be involved in such renegotiations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany

[Karl Henning]

Well, we can't say we didn't know this was coming:

http://www.youtube.com/v/qZOWItkanDs

[drogulus]

It is not that simple. A reduction of the armed forces was a condition for the German unification in 1990. These treaties could maybe be re-negotiated but it does not seem likely. After all, there was a certain superpower that yielded an important country within its influence to the NATO sphere and Russia would have to be involved in such renegotiations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany

     I would say that among the consequences of Russian aggression is they forfeit any influence over German militarization. We might offer them assurances if they agree to withdraw from all of Ukraine, but otherwise it's out of the question. Also, the Soviet Union does not exist.

[Pat B]

Tim Kaine brought up real Donald Trump quote after real Donald Trump quote, and Pence simply invented a world where they were never said, where they never mattered. His primary defense of his running mate was that he has not said or done any of the things he's said and done over the past year. That's appalling.


And, you know, I think there are people here who just may live in that same invented world.

The phrase you are looking for is "memory hole."

I had highish hopes for Kaine, but in the parts I saw he was pretty annoying.

[Madiel]

There are now rumors that Pence doing better in his debate, than Trump did in his, is making #1 a little jealous...

Isn't that just the Republican assessment of how the debate went that was accidentally published 2 hours before the debate? It told you his strongest points and everything.