Haydn's Haus

[North Star]

I am going with coincidence. Prokofiev was widely familiar with a LOT of Haydn but I've not read anything about this being deliberate (i.e. in his diaries) nor does it sound deliberate enough to my ears (for whatever that's worth).

+1

[Gurn Blanston]

I am going with coincidence. Prokofiev was widely familiar with a LOT of Haydn but I've not read anything about this being deliberate (i.e. in his diaries) nor does it sound deliberate enough to my ears (for whatever that's worth).

I would agree with that. 

[Florestan]

Coincidence it is, then, but the resemblance of the themes at least in the first bars is striking --- to my ears at least. I started listeining to Haydn and when the second theme entered, my reaction was "Just where did I hear exactly the same thing?" and after a while the answer came "Why, of course, it´s the beginning of Prokofiev´s 1st PC!"

[Jo498]

For me it is rather an example how superficial resemblance and a few shared notes cannot hide that both themes are very dissimilar in "gesture" and effect.

[Karl Henning]

He was steeped in Haydn, particularly in the conducting class at the Conservatory. (Just an additive footnote.)

[Sergeant Rock]

Mere coincidence or deliberate quotation? 

Prokofiev Piano Concerto No.1 "The Cat" 

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Prokofiev Piano Concerto No.1 "The Cat" 

Sarge

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[Madiel]

For me it is rather an example how superficial resemblance and a few shared notes cannot hide that both themes are very dissimilar in "gesture" and effect.

Indeed, and that is what is truly awful about a number of recent cases alleging copying. Judges and juries have been led down a false path by breaking down music into ridiculously small chunks.

I can't remember right now which of those cases it was, but a commentator demonstrated what happens: you get to the point where you can "prove" that the 2 pieces of music share the same fragment of a pattern, but what's not mentioned in court is that it is possible to find lots of other music that also shares the same pattern - including music that pre-dates the piece allegedly copied.

[Gurn Blanston]

Indeed, and that is what is truly awful about a number of recent cases alleging copying. Judges and juries have been led down a false path by breaking down music into ridiculously small chunks.

I can't remember right now which of those cases it was, but a commentator demonstrated what happens: you get to the point where you can "prove" that the 2 pieces of music share the same fragment of a pattern, but what's not mentioned in court is that it is possible to find lots of other music that also shares the same pattern - including music that pre-dates the piece allegedly copied.

I think that was the Stairway to Heaven case, where Jimmy Page when on to say something like "it's just a series of descending thirds, not anything special".  Page and Plant won that case, as well they should have. Shit, Haydn could have sued them and used the proceeds to pay Bach, who could have used the proceeds to pay.... 

[Florestan]

Cross post from the Concerts thread.

Last evening, at the Radio Concert Hall, Bucharest, a traditional "aristocratic" concert. 

ORCHESTRA  DE  CAMERĂ RADIO
Dirijor:CRISTIAN BRÂNCUŞI

CORUL ACADEMIC RADIO
Dirijor:CIPRIAN ȚUȚU

Soliști:
          ADRIAN JOJATU– fagot
          EMIL LANCEA – clarinet
          CRISTINA OLTEAN – soprană
          GEANINA MUNTEANU – alto
          TONY BARDON – tenor
          CRISTIAN HODREA – bas

C. M. von Weber: Andante şi Rondo ungarese în do minor, op. 35, J.158 pentru fagot şi orchestră
Franz Danzi:  Concertino în Si bemol major pentru clarinet, fagot şi orchestră, op. 47
J. Haydn: Missa nr. 9 în Do major ,,In Tempore Belli – Paukenmesse", Hob. XXII:9

It´s in Romanian but I´m sure you´ll understand everything except "dirijor" which means "conductor" and "fagot" which means "bassoon".

My first listen to Paukenmesse and I am quite impressed, particularly by the "Miserere nobis" for bass and cello obbligato, the "Benedictus" quartet and the final choral supplication "Dona nobis pacem", which in the context of the premiere must have been especially moving. And the timpani were indeed prominent. I loved it.

[Madiel]

I think that was the Stairway to Heaven case, where Jimmy Page when on to say something like "it's just a series of descending thirds, not anything special".  Page and Plant won that case, as well they should have. Shit, Haydn could have sued them and used the proceeds to pay Bach, who could have used the proceeds to pay.... 

Actually, I'm pretty sure it was the Blurred Lines case. Which is currently under appeal with large numbers of musicians horrified by the implications of it.

[Gurn Blanston]

Cross post from the Concerts thread.

Last evening, at the Radio Concert Hall, Bucharest, a traditional "aristocratic" concert. 

ORCHESTRA  DE  CAMERĂ RADIO
Dirijor:CRISTIAN BRÂNCUŞI

CORUL ACADEMIC RADIO
Dirijor:CIPRIAN ȚUȚU

Soliști:
          ADRIAN JOJATU– fagot
          EMIL LANCEA – clarinet
          CRISTINA OLTEAN – soprană
          GEANINA MUNTEANU – alto
          TONY BARDON – tenor
          CRISTIAN HODREA – bas

C. M. von Weber: Andante şi Rondo ungarese în do minor, op. 35, J.158 pentru fagot şi orchestră
Franz Danzi:  Concertino în Si bemol major pentru clarinet, fagot şi orchestră, op. 47
J. Haydn: Missa nr. 9 în Do major ,,In Tempore Belli – Paukenmesse", Hob. XXII:9

It´s in Romanian but I´m sure you´ll understand everything except "dirijor" which means "conductor" and "fagot" which means "bassoon".

My first listen to Paukenmesse and I am quite impressed, particularly by the "Miserere nobis" for bass and cello obbligato, the "Benedictus" quartet and the final choral supplication "Dona nobis pacem", which in the context of the premiere must have been especially moving. And the timpani were indeed prominent. I loved it.

Man, what a nice lineup! Some favorites there, and not just the Haydn, but Weber and Danzi both. Glad you enjoyed it. A little jealous too.   

[Gurn Blanston]

Actually, I'm pretty sure it was the Blurred Lines case. Which is currently under appeal with large numbers of musicians horrified by the implications of it.

There you go, the implications of each were much the same. At least Led Zeppelin's case appeared to have a trial judge with a sense of understanding of the issues. I thought the Blurred Lines case was exactly that. I wonder how well Handel's reply of 'yes, I took his theme, but I did much better things with it' would wash these days.

My real questions on the matter though are these:  even if those guys "stole" that little riff Marvin Gaye used in his song;
A> what harm was done to Marvin Gaye (or his heirs) by it??
B> what positive money-making good did it do Thicke and Williams??

IMHO, the audiences for those 2 songs are very different, many of them wouldn't have known the difference even if Thicke was doing an actual cover of Gaye's song. And what harm did it do Gaye? Not least that he is dead, but how were his heirs harmed?  Was the actual Gaye song watered down in value because a similar sounding riff was used in another song 40 years later?  I don't see it.

[Pat B]

My real questions on the matter though are these:  even if those guys "stole" that little riff Marvin Gaye used in his song;
A> what harm was done to Marvin Gaye (or his heirs) by it??
B> what positive money-making good did it do Thicke and Williams??

Damage estimation is nothing new.

"Blurred Lines" is an apt metaphor for musical copyright cases. It's rarely clear-cut. Here the defendants didn't copy a riff; they copied the vibe -- production vs. songwriting. In some sense the vibe is more important than a riff, but it's a nebulous concept and AFAIK it had never been protected before.

From the accounts I read it sounded like the jury's decision may have hinged on the unlikeability of the defendants.

If this is an isolated case, it's not that big of a deal. But if it opens the floodgates for "this song sort of reminds me of that song" lawsuits, that will be disastrous.

[Gurn Blanston]

Busy times: after all the researching and writing and picture locating, I realized it was just 3 weeks in 1794 time!

Best of time, worst of time?

Thanks,

[Gurn Blanston]

I've spent three and a half years doing this, and finally got to my favorite symphony. I hope you are interested in what I had to say about it. I was.   

Not just for fun

Enjoy, and thanks,

[Madiel]

"It is somewhat less learned, and easier to take in, than some of the other newest works by him, but it is still just as rich in new ideas."

[Gurn Blanston]

"It is somewhat less learned, and easier to take in, than some of the other newest works by him, but it is still just as rich in new ideas."

Great quote. I always enjoy the rare opportunity to see what his contemporaries thought.

[Old Listener]

I've spent three and a half years doing this, and finally got to my favorite symphony. I hope you are interested in what I had to say about it. I was.   

Not just for fun

Hard for me to maintain a permanent favorite among Haydn's works.  The one that I'm listening to at the moment has a great advantage.

I appreciate all the context that you bring me about Haydn's works.

[Karl Henning]

Our Gurn is doing the musical world real service.

Hard for me to maintain a permanent favorite among Haydn's works.

Nor me.  And so, when someone who knows the symphonies much, much better than do I has a signal favorite, I take note.  I may still never have a fixed favorite, but I appreciate the other perspective.