Forward momentum in modern symphonic music?

[relm1]

The very fine English composer John Pickard has a great interview on the Arnold Bax website here:
http://arnoldbax.com/interview-with-composer-john-pickard/

In the interview, he says this: "The symphonies [of Arnold Bax] often pause for long periods of reflection when what is really needed is forward momentum rather than enjoying the scenery. And when he does write fast music, it tends to jog on the spot rather than really travel."

This made me pause because I quite enjoy musical reverie but think he is completely right.  Musically speaking, I don't fully understand his metaphor.  I am just not certain I fully grasp the concept of a composer needing further forward momentum rather than a moment of reprieve during a long musical stretch.  Can you recommend any examples you think exemplify what Pickard means in terms of modern music that succeeds in the right level of momentum throughout the movement?  Sure, we have works like Ravel's Bolero that are a slow build and such but sonata form includes contrast and that means you do stop and reflect before moving forward.  I do agree with him regarding Bax but I don't fully understand what he means towards my own music so any examples of great momentum build throughout a movement would be very much appreciated.

[Cato]

The very fine English composer John Pickard has a great interview on the Arnold Bax website here:
http://arnoldbax.com/interview-with-composer-john-pickard/

In the interview, he says this: "The symphonies [of Arnold Bax] often pause for long periods of reflection when what is really needed is forward momentum rather than enjoying the scenery. And when he does write fast music, it tends to jog on the spot rather than really travel."

This made me pause because I quite enjoy musical reverie but think he is completely right.  Musically speaking, I don't fully understand his metaphor.  I am just not certain I fully grasp the concept of a composer needing further forward momentum rather than a moment of reprieve during a long musical stretch.  Can you recommend any examples you think exemplify what Pickard means in terms of modern music that succeeds in the right level of momentum throughout the movement?  Sure, we have works like Ravel's Bolero that are a slow build and such but sonata form includes contrast and that means you do stop and reflect before moving forward.  I do agree with him regarding Bax but I don't fully understand what he means towards my own music so any examples of great momentum build throughout a movement would be very much appreciated.

The last movement of Prokofiev's Third Symphony, or the last movement of Bruckner's Fifth Symphony.

[Mahlerian]

Sometimes stasis is the effect desired, as in Debussy's Sunken Cathedral or Satie's Gymnopedies, but even something that is "static" in terms of harmonic motion can produce momentum by means of rhythm and phrasing, just like Wagner does excellently in the prelude to Das Rheingold.

I can't speak to Bax's music, as I have not cared for what I've heard enough to get to know any piece of it in depth, but I can think of several examples of symphonic and "symphonic" movements that generate and maintain considerable momentum throughout:

Mozart: "Jupiter" Symphony - finale
Beethoven: Symphony No. 5 - first movement
Schumann: Symphony No. 2 - Adagio espressivo
Brahms: Symphony No. 4 - finale
Mahler: Symphony No. 5 - second movement
Debussy: La mer - finale
Berg: Three Pieces for Orchestra - III.

There doesn't have to be one consistent build in excitement, like Bolero; a series of waves that crest higher and lower can still maintain forward motion just as well.

[arpeggio]

The band junkie recommends Peter Mennin's Canzona for Band and Ralph Vaughn Williams' Toccata Marziale.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I guess if there is an element of the music that a composer really wishes to draw attention to as relatively unchanging over a longer period of time then it could feel somewhat static. I don't really know much modern specifically symphonic music which has a consistent forward momentum though. I am tempted to include the third movement of Bernhard Lang's The Saucy Maid, which seems to push along at a relatively steady rate of forward momentum and it is the closest thing to a modern symphony I can think of which has this momentum as a consistent feature.

[Mandryka]

The very fine English composer John Pickard has a great interview on the Arnold Bax website here:
http://arnoldbax.com/interview-with-composer-john-pickard/

In the interview, he says this: "The symphonies [of Arnold Bax] often pause for long periods of reflection when what is really needed is forward momentum rather than enjoying the scenery. And when he does write fast music, it tends to jog on the spot rather than really travel."

This made me pause because I quite enjoy musical reverie but think he is completely right.  Musically speaking, I don't fully understand his metaphor.  I am just not certain I fully grasp the concept of a composer needing further forward momentum rather than a moment of reprieve during a long musical stretch.  Can you recommend any examples you think exemplify what Pickard means in terms of modern music that succeeds in the right level of momentum throughout the movement?  Sure, we have works like Ravel's Bolero that are a slow build and such but sonata form includes contrast and that means you do stop and reflect before moving forward.  I do agree with him regarding Bax but I don't fully understand what he means towards my own music so any examples of great momentum build throughout a movement would be very much appreciated.

Well that's the idea seems to be the difference between experiencing the time when the music's playing as full of events (jog on the spot), and experiencing it as a time where you're aiming to get from A to B  (travel) I'm not really very knowledgeable about modern symphonic music, but in fact one thing which came into my head when I saw your question about "right level of momentum" , a good balance between travelling and jogging on the spot, is Grisey's Espaces Acoustiques.

As far as an example with great momentum buildup, that's harder, I don't know if modern music is really about building momentum  - there are I'm sure examples from Sibelius and Shostakovich, but after? Maybe I'll think of something later. Actually the new Lachenmann that everyone's bitching about - Marche Fatale - is probably an example.

[Cato]

Well that's the idea seems to be the difference between experiencing the time when the music's playing as full of events (jog on the spot), and experiencing it as a time where you're aiming to get from A to B  (travel) I'm not really very knowledgeable about modern symphonic music, but in fact one thing which came into my head when I saw your question about "right level of momentum" , a good balance between traveling and jogging on the spot, is Grisey's Espaces Acoustiques.

As far as an example with great momentum buildup, that's harder, I don't know if modern music is really about building momentum  - there are I'm sure examples from Sibelius and Shostakovich, but after? Maybe I'll think of something later. Actually the new Lachenmann that everyone's bitching about - Marche Fatale - is probably an example.

Try the Hartmann Sixth Symphony, although he was contemporary with Shostakovich.

[amw]

With forward momentum what I tend to come back to all the time is the St Matthew Passion—it's on the surface a very start stop structure with recitatives, arias, choral interjections and chorales, with no obvious relationships apart from the text, but when you actually listen to it in full it feels like a wave that keeps building, even if momentarily the energy might flag or there might be an instant of relaxation, because psychologically the tension is sustained all the way through until it finally breaks at, depending on the performance, Aus Liebe, Konnen Tränen or Komm, süßes Kreuz—the arias that encapsulate in miniature Jesus's psychological journey from despair to acceptance of death and that are what all this momentum has been building towards. And from then on even through the actual moment of crucifixion it's all dénouement, the inevitable breaking of the wave and the profoundly grief-stricken but immensely calm and resigned final chorus. Basically I guess what I'm saying is if you want to really study momentum look at Bach. (And the composers who learned the most from him: Mozart, Chopin, Brahms, Schoenberg, etc)

[vandermolen]

Maybe Bax's music is more focused on 'atmosphere' rather than 'argument' (the 5th Symphony perhaps an exception). I do not consider this a weakness. Pickard's music is not without interest, although IMHO Bax was a far greater composer. However, as a semi-retired History teacher, I live in the past. 

[Karl Henning]

Maybe Bax's music is more focused on 'atmosphere' rather than 'argument' (the 5th Symphony perhaps an exception). I do not consider this a weakness.

No, the alternate focus is nothing like a weakness.