Rachmaninov or Rachmaninoff?

[Sarastro]

You still don't get it.

Once again: I do not mind. Moreover, my music text-book referred to him as Rachmaninoff. But when it comes to ordering from Deutsche Grammophon, I will not find Rachmaninoff. And there are many places where there is no Rachmaninoff to be found, only Rachmaninov. Like Schönberg and Schoenberg...

[eyeresist]

You suspect correctly, sir!

http://home.comcast.net/~thomas.o.lee/Prokofieff.jpg

Very interesting. Although, according to this evidence, we should be writing it "ProKoFieff".


I think ff looks effete.

[M forever]

But when it comes to ordering from Deutsche Grammophon, I will not find Rachmaninoff.

I know. I find that embarassing and unacceptable. In Germany, such things do matter. So I emailed DG and gave them shit for that. They deserved it.

[Sarastro]

So I emailed DG and gave them shit for that.

Did they change the spelling?

It is also a good idea to mail DECCA, Naxos, EMI, and to inform Amazon, too.

[vandermolen]

Favourite recording of 'The Bells'? His masterpiece IMHO.

My vote=Kondrashin

[False_Dmitry]

Actually the correct orthography of his name is Сергей Васильевич Рахманинов    

In general the transliteration of Russian composer names was "regularised" by whomever was that composer's publisher - since signing with a "Western" publisher was of critical importance to international fame (and, err, earnings).  For example the composer of Лебеденое Озеро (SWAN LAKE) was published in Germany.  Germans needed to add the initial "t" to get an "explosive ch" at the beginning of his name - and so he became Tchaikowksi.  But he has no "t" in Russian, which has a specific letter (ч) to deal with that "tch-" sound.  In Russian he is Чайковский which would be written-out Chaíkovskií if transliterated letter-for-letter (which is very close to how the French spell him, in fact).   Similarly Medtner was published in Germany, and they added that additional "d" into the middle of his name - in Russian he is Метнер.

In point of fact Russian composers have generally been a lot more laid-back about this than, errr, some of you have been here  

If it makes you feel any better about things, Russians have not always been consistent about transliterating foreign names into their language, and in fact they've been downright cavalier about it sometimes     Poor old Handel turns up usually as Гэндель (Gendyel') although for his anniversary last year a few Early Music groups at least turned him into Хэндель (Khendyel') although I'm not sure it was necessarily much better.  And I've seen Ponchielli russified as Понкиелли, Панхиелли or even the charming semi-georgianised Понхьельи

By the way, I ought to mention there are no grounds whatsoever for more than one "s" in Musorgsky's name.

Worse still is when they take their spelling of a composer's name and try to turn him back into the latin alphabet without checking how he was originally spelt    [Concert-promoters chasing the "foreign tourist in town" market are keen to meet their guests in some new made-up midway language).  Can you recognise composers like Von Uillyams, Bakh, de Biussé, Veber, or Shimannovsky ?  Since I was proof-reading the Festival brochure concerned myself, I managed to save readers from Piter Makswheel Devis

And we leave for another time the evils which have been produced by "computer translation software"...  save for a a single mention of the plot-summary in the programme for a Moscow performance of Poulenc's DIALOGUES OF THE CARMELITES... ("The runaway Blanche returns to her sisters as they go to the guillotine")

Blansh is absenting, all female monks are going on a death. They go on a death each one. Blansh is unwanted back to returning, and joyfull mingle with her sisters in a way to a construction site.

(in fact the production concerned was breathtaking and terrifying - the programme sold it sadly short)

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Worse still is when they take their spelling of a composer's name and try to turn him back into the latin alphabet without checking how he was originally spelt    [Concert-promoters chasing the "foreign tourist in town" market are keen to meet their guests in some new made-up midway language).  Can you recognise composers like Von Uillyams, Bakh, de Biussé, Veber, or Shimannovsky ?  Since I was proof-reading the Festival brochure concerned myself, I managed to save readers from Piter Makswheel Devis

LOL. This annoys the crap out of me. It's mystifying because so many people do it, yet they've all studied a foreign language or two and must realize that different languages spell things different ways. Especially in the Internet age, there is no excuse for such a thing.

There are also transliteration issues around Russian names of non-Russian origin; e.g. should Шварц be rendered as "Schwarz" or "Shvarts"? Personally I think they should be spelled as in their language of origin. But again there are exceptions - Шостакович for instance is a Polish name and should be spelled Szostakowicz, but we've gotten used to Shostakovich and this isn't going to change. (Though curiously, when his works were first performed in the US, the Polish spelling was used in programs.)

[Christo]

Blansh is absenting, all female monks are going on a death. They go on a death each one. Blansh is unwanted back to returning, and joyfull mingle with her sisters in a way to a construction site.

Hahaha.    Great story, don't hesitate to tell more!

[False_Dmitry]

Hahaha.    Great story, don't hesitate to tell more!

I guess the "construction site" emerged from the two alternative meanings of "scaffold" 

and should be spelled Szostakowicz

Hmmm, a lovely idea - but I think, as with "Tchaikovsky", we are too far entrenched with the version we know and love to make a change now    (Rather like the attempt to correct "Bartok" to "Bartyk", which hasn't really caught on... except among Bartyk-heads )

[karlhenning]

Germans needed to add the initial "t" to get an "explosive ch" at the beginning of his name - and so he became Tchaikowksi.

Actually, Tchaikovsky is French orthography. German would be Tschaikowski

[Scarpia]

Actually, Tchaikovsky is French orthography. German would be Tschaikowski

And I believe "off" for "ов" is also French.  Russian passports customarily have had French transliteration to latin text, which is probably why Rachmaninoff chose the version he did.  As far as I am concerned, it is bibliographic issue.  If you are citing the person or something published under Latin characters, then you follow the source, Rachmaninoff.  If you are citing an document published in Cyrillic, you should follow standard transliteration for the language in question, which is "ov" for all English based schemes, as far as I know.  But Rach published most of his stuff outside Russia so that would be a rare instance.

[False_Dmitry]

And I believe "off" for "ов" is also French. 

There's an inherent mismatch between attempts to transliterate "the printed word" and "the sound it makes".  For example, both of these letters occur in Prokofiev's name in Russian  (Прокофьев) and they are clearly different letters. 

Russian pronunciation has some reasonably established conventions about "softening-off", which means that unstressed vowel-sounds, and the consonants adjacent to them, "mutate".  The last syllable of Prokofiev's name "softens-off" in this fashion (because the stress is on "-ko-"), and so the final letter "v" sounds like an "f" even if it's not written as one.

So it's a choice between rendering the printed letters, or rendering the sound usually made   Which can be different things..

[Moonfish]

*bump*   

Eight years since the last post? Probably for a reason! 

Still, this is a fun topic - it is similar to the one word thread, but with a more vigorous approach! 
It is almost like a public debate in Congress!

So....

Rachmaninov or Rachmaninoff (or Rachmaninow or Rakhmaninov or Rakhmaninoff)?

[Moonfish]

From another board:

"The current style of romanization of Russian surnames is "-ov" (transliteration), while in the past it used to be "-off" (quasi-phonetic). See this paper in French (with English abstract) on the subject. Note, that until recently when Russians were issued travel documents, their names were romanized in French style, i.e. "-ow" would have been acceptable too. You could encounter funny endings like "-oukine" etc. Now they switched to English transliteration. If he were issued a passport today I bet it would have been Rakhmaninov, note kh instead of ch."

[Moonfish]

As I'm pondering this question I think I will have to go for Rachmaninoff as the proper way to honor this masterful composer - after all that is how he wanted his name spelled and how he used it throughout his life. It is not a matter of transliteration (which is a fascinating topic on its own). Rachmaninoff made his choice when he moved to the West.
What bothers me is how the media (especially the recording labels) propagated his name in a different form. It is bizarre. What gives the media/labels the right? 

[mc ukrneal]

We need a poll!

One question - a lot of arguments in this thread say that Rachmaninov 'chose' the spelling. Now, clearly he used the -off, but did he choose it? Many immigrants had their names bastardized or changed when they arrived in the US (meaning, it was chosen for them, and they just accepted that). Another thought is that this is what he used in France and so he just went along with it and continued with it in the US. I am curious - is there is any evidence in his hand (or someone near to him) that he ever gave this any thought whatsoever.

Personally, I find the -off spelling inelegant and inefficient, but that is not evidence of any sort!

[Christo]

It's simple: 'Tchaikovsky', 'Rimsky-Korsakoff', 'Rachmaninoff', 'Glière' etc. are transliterations in French, the standard before WWII - and hardly a matter of choice by these individual composers themselves. Since then, more English oriented transliterations have become more common. But every language has a different transliteration style, and all of these names are spelled very differently in e.g. German (Tschaikowski, Rachmaninow, etc.), Spanish, Romanian, Italian, or Dutch. Hence the mistakes that many of us make in the spelling of these composers names: we're used to other word patterns.

[aleazk]

I thought the "f" came from the english transliteration of how the germans pronounce the v in the transliteration from the russian! 

[Mookalafalas]

I don't think the variations have to do with culture or language at all, but rather one's view of his testosterone level. It is best thought of as a question, is "RockManEnough"?

[André]

I spell it both ways, it doesn't realy matter. He signed his name with ff, not v. Same with Prokofieff(v). Interestingly, both examples below date from the same year (1933):