The Great Mahler Debate

[MishaK]

Based on what I have heard so far I'd like Mahler 4 times denser. 

I do have to wonder what you were listening for and what you were actually hearing and processing. BTW, are you familiar with Mahler's song cycles? I would highly recommend you listen to the Wunderhorn songs, especially des heiligen Antonius zu Padua Fischpredigt before you pass judgment on the Resurrection. Even Brahms (who declined to consider Mahler's das klagende Lied as a composition competition submission when he was on the jury) thought that the scherzo of the Resurrection was a work of genius. It is based on the aforementioned song. Berio recycled it in some of his works.

[mahlertitan]

I am listening to Mahler #2 while writing this. All the symphonies I have heard so far (1, 4, 7 & 9) have been nice music but surprisingly they haven't contained even one bar that blows me away. I continue listening to the symphonies but I still can't include Mahler among the greatest symphonists.

Mahler's trademark is to keep things simple. I constantly feel he does not take the music anywhere. Also, all movements sound alike. I don't know another composer whose fast and slow movements sound so similar. Mahler is also hooking and pleasing.

whatever, as long as you like it.

btw, Mahler's music grows on you, sometimes it doesn't immediately impress you, but you will come back for more in the future.

[stingo]

whatever, as long as you like it.

btw, Mahler's music grows on you, sometimes it doesn't immediately impress you, but you will come back for more in the future.

Mein Zeit wird kommen...

[mahlertitan]

Mein Zeit wird kommen...

should've come sooner.

[greg]

btw, Mahler's music grows on you, sometimes it doesn't immediately impress you, but you will come back for more in the future.

couldn't be more true.....
when i first heard my favorite piece of music of all time, Mahler's 9th, for the first time, all I remember thinking was that it "had a nice sound to it." But once you get to know it better, it'll definetely grow on you.... though usually you can tell by the first time you listen exactly how much it possibly can grow on you.

[71 dB]

I do have to wonder what you were listening for and what you were actually hearing and processing. BTW, are you familiar with Mahler's song cycles? I would highly recommend you listen to the Wunderhorn songs, especially des heiligen Antonius zu Padua Fischpredigt before you pass judgment on the Resurrection. Even Brahms (who declined to consider Mahler's das klagende Lied as a composition competition submission when he was on the jury) thought that the scherzo of the Resurrection was a work of genius. It is based on the aforementioned song. Berio recycled it in some of his works.

Unfortunately I am not familiar with the songs.

whatever, as long as you like it.

btw, Mahler's music grows on you, sometimes it doesn't immediately impress you, but you will come back for more in the future.

That's why I keep listening...

[PerfectWagnerite]

Unfortunately I am not familiar with the songs.

That's why I keep listening...

Did you say you think Mahler's fast and slow movements sound similar
How does the second and third movments of the 4th symphony sound in any remote way similar?

[greg]

Did you say you think Mahler's fast and slow movements sound similar
How does the second and third movments of the 4th symphony sound in any remote way similar?

if he keeps on listening, he'll become more familiar and be able to tell the difference

[rubio]

Based on what I have heard so far I'd like Mahler 4 times denser. 

So which recordings are you listening to? If you want emotional and more dense Mahler you should go for Bernstein's DG set. On the other side (tight, clear, sometimes slightly analytical) you'll find e.g. Boulez (at least for many of the symphonies). Different interpretations play a very important role for this composer.

[Sergeant Rock]

Well, if the symphonies were half their length the themes would overlap 2 times more => complexity.

Does anyone know what dB is talking about?

If the symphonies were half as long the themes would overlap twice as much which would mean less complexity.

Uh?

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

if he keeps on listening, he'll become more familiar and be able to tell the difference

Quite frankly, if dB can't hear the radical differences between the five movements of the Second or Seventh, on first hearing, he's not really listening or paying attention. His comments so far have been so bizzare, I'm beginning to wonder if he's actually heard any Mahler yet. For the life of me, I can't understand how Mahler's contrapuntal complexity has eluded dB. Why can't he hear it? Mahler's orchestration is so beautifully transparent most of the time.

Sarge

[BachQ]

Does anyone know what dB is talking about?

If the symphonies were half as long the themes would overlap twice as much which would mean less complexity.

Uh?

Sarge

No.  It would increase the complexity by a factor of four (2²).

It's really frustrating that you cannot see this, Sarge . . . . . .   

[Sergeant Rock]

No.  It would increase the complexity by a factor of four (2²).

It's really frustrating that you cannot see this, Sarge . . . . . .   

It is frustrating. If I only had a brain that could think freely, I might be able to understand dB.

Sarge

[Haffner]

It is frustrating. If I only had a brain that could think freely, I might be able to understand dB.

Sarge

Maybe if I stopped listening to Mahler, I'd understand. (Andy looks over and sees the Karajan DG 9th) naaaahhhhhhh

[71 dB]

Did you say you think Mahler's fast and slow movements sound similar
How does the second and third movments of the 4th symphony sound in any remote way similar?

Yes. The tempo of Mahler's slow movememts aren't that slow and he doesn't seem to have really fast movements. Also, the weighting of musical dimensions remain almost constant. Other composers weight usually melody in slow moments and rhythm in fast movements.

Of course, the movements are not similar (identical) but the difference is smaller than with other composers. Mahler's musical style is rigid and he works within narrow frame.

if he keeps on listening, he'll become more familiar and be able to tell the difference

Possible.

So which recordings are you listening to? If you want emotional and more dense Mahler you should go for Bernstein's DG set. On the other side (tight, clear, sometimes slightly analytical) you'll find e.g. Boulez (at least for many of the symphonies). Different interpretations play a very important role for this composer.

I have been streaming from Naxos server thanks to the links I got from MT. The 2nd symphony is conducted by Mariss Jansons.

Does anyone know what dB is talking about?

If the symphonies were half as long the themes would overlap twice as much which would mean less complexity.

Uh?

Sarge

I don't share your logic. Overlaping means complexity for me. The more things happens simultanuosly the more complex it is. That's the idea of counterpoint. Unfortunately Mahler does not show mastery in it.

[MishaK]

Yes. The tempo of Mahler's slow movememts aren't that slow and he doesn't seem to have really fast movements. Also, the weighting of musical dimensions remain almost constant. Other composers weight usually melody in slow moments and rhythm in fast movements.

Of course, the movements are not similar (identical) but the difference is smaller than with other composers. Mahler's musical style is rigid and he works within narrow frame.

What on earth are you talking about? How can the comparatively petite 4th be of the same musical dimensions as the massive 8th or the oddly proportioned 3d with those short vocal movements and the over half-hour-long final adagio? Fast movements aren't fast, slow movements aren't slow? Have you heard the 5th? You seem to have odd concepts of what other composers do, as well.

[greg]

Yes. The tempo of Mahler's slow movememts aren't that slow and he doesn't seem to have really fast movements. Also, the weighting of musical dimensions remain almost constant. Other composers weight usually melody in slow moments and rhythm in fast movements.

Of course, the movements are not similar (identical) but the difference is smaller than with other composers. Mahler's musical style is rigid and he works within narrow frame.

Possible.

I have been streaming from Naxos server thanks to the links I got from MT. The 2nd symphony is conducted by Mariss Jansons.

I don't share your logic. Overlaping means complexity for me. The more things happens simultanuosly the more complex it is. That's the idea of counterpoint. Unfortunately Mahler does not show mastery in it.

wow.... are you deaf?

especially that last part.... have you listened to any of his final movements? like the 5th or 6th, tons of counterpoint, very much like a fugue.

i just finished listening to that last movement of the 6th (while following along with the score), definetely complex and a prelude to modernism, being atonal in some sections. Not only that, there is no recap of the very beginning, except at the very end- calling him rigid is the most ridiculous thing you could possibly call him- it's so episodic, it can be hard to follow (at least with that movement, for me it is)

[Sergeant Rock]

I don't share your logic. Overlaping means complexity for me. The more things happens simultanuosly the more complex it is. That's the idea of counterpoint. Unfortunately Mahler does not show mastery in it.

That's why I'm questioning your hearing, dB. You claim you can't hear the contrapuntal complexity and yet that's a hallmark of Mahler's music...and it's so easy to hear all those overlapping strands because of Mahler's wonderful transparency. Despite the huge orchestral forces, he's rarely dense, rarely opaque. What kind of sound system do you have? Could that be the problem?

Sarge

[MishaK]

What kind of sound system do you have? Could that be the problem?

He's covered his speakers with a solid 5-inch thick case of felt, so that everything sound like Elgar. 

[Sergeant Rock]

I have been streaming from Naxos server thanks to the links I got from MT. The 2nd symphony is conducted by Mariss Jansons.

So you're listening through your computer? Headphones? Speakers?...Felt? 

Sarge