African music is (was?) more rhythmically complex...

[MN Dave]

Than classical.

True? Who can speak to this?

[71 dB]

Definitely! African music is based on rhythms and can be very complex.

[Josquin des Prez]

Western music did have a period in which rhythm was explored in full, the so called ars subtilis of the gothic era, some of this stuff rivaling anything in the African lore, but then harmony prevailed and rhythm became less important. It's ok anyway, i like harmony and development better and i find the primeval minimalism of African art to be monotonous. Luckily, a couple of modern composers have managed to fuse both arts in a rather convincing synthesis (Ligeti!).

[Cato]

I recently sat through some African drumming by a group from Sierra Leone.  Sure, cross-rhythms now and then, but as mentioned above, in the end monotonous.

It does not compare to the invention of polyphony.

[EmpNapoleon]

Experiment:

African tribal group made to listen to Beethoven.

[Josquin des Prez]

It does not compare to the invention of polyphony.

Some portions of the African tradition are polyphonic (I.E., the music of the Pygmies), but it's still rather uncouth and polyphony without development is kind of useless anyway.

[gmstudio]

I recently sat through some African drumming by a group from Sierra Leone.  Sure, cross-rhythms now and then, but as mentioned above, in the end monotonous.

The biggest difference, though, is that African drumming is meant to be participatory, while European art music is meant to be listened to. 

African drumming is not monotonous if you are actively involved.  With that at it's core, you cannot really judge it in the same way you would a Beethoven symphony.

[MN Dave]

There is more to music than just 1 dimension...but there is hordes of rhythmic complexity in the great classical legacy... Beethoven, who wrote piano sonatas in 3/8, 12/8, 9/16 and 11/16, and string quartets in ; Bach, who wrote in 7/8 and 12/16; Chopin, who wrote in 2/8, 6/4 and 12/4; Bartok, who wrote in 7/4, 8/4, 9/4 and many others; Barber, who wrote in 9/4, 14/8, 18/8 and many others; Leos Janacek, who wrote in 13/8, Elgar, who wrote in 9/8; and Stravinsky, who wrote in too many bizarre signatures to count. I won't even mention Schoenberg, Berg, Messiaen, Berio, Boulez, Ligeti, Carter or; CONLON NANCARROW!!!! That would be shooting fish in a barrel. And remember, they used these time signatures in works of great length and complexity. Has Africian music (or anything in pop, rock, jazz etc) produced something the complexity of a St. Matthew Passion? The answer is, a flat no. Accusing Bach-lovers of cultural snobbism won't change this.

Yes, but still not AS complex is my understanding.

[Cato]

African drumming is not monotonous if you are actively involved.  With that at it's core, you cannot really judge it in the same way you would a Beethoven symphony.

In fact my students were brought up on stage to beat certain rhythms, and said that after the initial fun, it was...yes...monotonous.  Agreed, they could not be given too complicated a beat.  But apparently the dances involved were designed for the rather monotonous drumming we heard.

See the previous post for examples of Western music which in either case are quite complex rhythmically, and use actual tuned notes on top of it!  

And obviously I was not expecting anything close to Beethoven!  

But if the topic means to make a case that a certain rhythmic complexity qualifies drumbeating for equivalency of expression to anything beyond other kinds of drumbeating, it will fail.

[MN Dave]

In fact my students were brought up on stage to beat certain rhythms, and said that after the initial fun, it was...yes...monotonous.  Agreed, they could not be given too complicated a beat.  But apparently the dances involved were designed for the rather monotonous drumming we heard.

See the previous post for examples of Western music which in either case are quite complex rhythmically, and use actual tuned notes on top of it!  

And obviously I was not expecting anything close to Beethoven!  

But if the topic means to make a case that a certain rhythmic complexity qualifies drumbeating for equivalency of expression to anything beyond other kinds of drumbeating, it will fail.

No, I was just curious, really. Wanted to hear some points of view on this.

[EmpNapoleon]

Experiment:

African tribal group made to listen to Beethoven.

I think that the African tribal group would like Beethoven more than the classical tribal group would like African music.  We should begin a crusade to give these people classical music (sorry for being a Westerner).  Perhaps the Harry Refusal Bin could go to these tribes. 

[gmstudio]

In fact my students were brought up on stage to beat certain rhythms, and said that after the initial fun, it was...yes...monotonous.  Agreed, they could not be given too complicated a beat.  But apparently the dances involved were designed for the rather monotonous drumming we heard.

See the previous post for examples of Western music which in either case are quite complex rhythmically, and use actual tuned notes on top of it!   

And obviously I was not expecting anything close to Beethoven! 

But if the topic means to make a case that a certain rhythmic complexity qualifies drumbeating for equivalency of expression to anything beyond other kinds of drumbeating, it will fail.

Sounds to me like you made up your mind based on one experience in "African Drumming Light"...the same as if someone made up their mind about all classical music based on one Andre Rieu tune. 

[Josquin des Prez]

Sounds to me like you made up your mind based on one experience in "African Drumming Light"...the same as if someone made up their mind about all classical music based on one Andre Rieu tune. 

Or maybe that's his honest, genuine opinion. I own pretty much every cd released by the nonesuch explorer series which is as good a picture of African music as anybody can hope to get without actually flying to Africa. The problem here is that we are comparing a fully developed art with primitive music. Of course you are going to come up short. For the record, African music does not compare with other developed forms of art as well, like say, Jazz.

[karlhenning]

The problem here is that we are comparing a fully developed art with primitive music.

Another problem, is that you are really begging the question by the simplistic denigration "primitive music."

[Josquin des Prez]

Another problem, is that you are really begging the question by the simplistic denigration "primitive music."

Karl, you are not being perspective enough. If i wanted to denigrate African music i would have said "childish music". 

Primitive does not necessarily imply lack of sophistication, but surely, there are still limits on how much it can be achieved under those conditions.

[karlhenning]

Primitive does not necessarily imply lack of sophistication . . .

Well, it certainly seems to, as in some of the painting in the US from the Colonial period.

. . . but surely, there are still limits on how much it can be achieved under those conditions.

Are there limits to what can be achieved with the diatonic major scale?

[(poco) Sforzando]

Unless someone here is a trained ethnomusicologist with an intimate knowledge of both Western and non-Western musics, I accept any statements made here both pro and con African drumming with a ton of salt. I am not intimately familiar with African music, but I know something about Indian, and the rhythmic complexities of the various talas there at least match those in any Western music.

[pjme]

There is more of course...but one needs to go to a good (real) library and take time to study everything that has been written on the complexity of African music. I remember quite well radio programs ( France Musique or France Culture ca 1970-1980) with franco-russian composer/ethnomusicologist Tolia Nikiprowetzky : fascinating explanations on handclapping, the balaphon, singing, dancing.

Ah - if only I had time to go to the Conservatoire: it would make any somber winterday exciting for me .

Peter

Par example :

Lynne Jessup The Mandinka balafon: an introduction with notation for teaching Xylo Publications, ASIN 0916421015 0
Barry, B. "le Royaume du Waalo : Le Senegal avant la conquete" Maspero (coll. "Textes a l'appui") 1972


Acogny Germaine Danse africaine NEA 1980
TRACEY, Hugh  Tuning Forks for field Researches  African Music, vol. 4, n. 4 1970
Adama Dramé & Arlette Senn-Borloz "JELIYA. Etre Griot et musicien aujourd'hui" l'Harmattan 
Al Bekri Description de l'Afrique septentrionale (traduction de Slane)  1913
Al-Omari Ibn Fadl Allah L'Afrique moins l'Egypte (traduction Gaudefroy Demombynes) Geuthner 1927

Ankermann B. Die afrikanische Musikinstrumente Ethnologisches Notizblatt 3 (1) 1901
Ansermet E. Les fondements de la musique dans la conscience humaine A la Baconniere 1961
Arom S. La methode distributionnelle en ethnomusicologie, in: Actes du 1er Congres inernational de semiotique musicale Centro di Initiativa culturale 1975
Arom S. Systematique des musiques tradtionnelles d'Afrique, in: Monographies de semiologie et d'analyses musicales Faculte de Musique 1976
Arom S. "Comprendre la musique des autres", in: Recherche, pedagodie et culture   
Auge M. Symbole, fonction, histoire : les interrogations de l'anthropologie Hachette (collection "Esprit critique" 1979
Augier P. "La musicolgie africaine a l'Institut national des Arts d'Abidjan", in: recherche, pedagogie et culture, 65/66  1984
BA, A.H. "La tradition viavante" in "Histoire generale de l'Afrique, vol. I Jeune afrique / Stock / UNESCO

Etc, etc

[Josquin des Prez]

There is more of course...but one needs to go to a good (real) library and take time to study everything that has been written on the complexity of African music.

Or perhaps you could simply, you know, listen to it.

[Josquin des Prez]

Are there limits to what can be achieved with the diatonic major scale?

No, but there may limits on how far you can go if you don't know what a diatonic major scale is.

But enough theory tak. If you can find one single instance in which African music has achieved the same level of brilliance of anything coming from the civilized west, well, by means, i'm all ears.