Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[calyptorhynchus]

I doubt it Fergus. I do have a CD of the VW coupled with 'Riders to the Sea' on Chandos and I remember enjoying it. I suspect that it's much better than 'Sinfonia Domestica' which I can't stand. The same goes for 'An Alpine Symphony' (which I misguidedly bought recently) and worst of all 'Ein Heldenleben', which probably puts me in the minority here.

Welcome to the Sanity Club! 

[vandermolen]

Welcome to the Sanity Club! 

[Roasted Swan]

New release of rather early stuff (apart from Household Music):

Another case of the RVW estate allowing people to "complete and realise" early works.  In this case a 1903 horn sonata with the Dr Frankenstein work done again by the indefatigable Martin Yates.  The Dr Frankenstein comment is unfair (but quite apposite I thought!) given Yates' care and skill but ultimately this is not a genuine/complete work by RVW.  The D major Quintet (for clarinet, horn, piano, violin & cello) is the same work as appeared on this (very good) set:


More intriguingly the Bax Horn Sonata is not mentioned at all in Graham Parlett's exhaustive/definitive "A Catalogue of the works of Sir Anold Bax".  If it does date from 1901 then the composer was 18 and from Parlett's catalogue more concerned with writing songs that year! 

Not sure this is going to be a must-buy!

[vandermolen]

Another case of the RVW estate allowing people to "complete and realise" early works.  In this case a 1903 horn sonata with the Dr Frankenstein work done again by the indefatigable Martin Yates.  The Dr Frankenstein comment is unfair (but quite apposite I thought!) given Yates' care and skill but ultimately this is not a genuine/complete work by RVW.  The D major Quintet (for clarinet, horn, piano, violin & cello) is the same work as appeared on this (very good) set:


More intriguingly the Bax Horn Sonata is not mentioned at all in Graham Parlett's exhaustive/definitive "A Catalogue of the works of Sir Anold Bax".  If it does date from 1901 then the composer was 18 and from Parlett's catalogue more concerned with writing songs that year! 

Not sure this is going to be a must-buy!

I rather like your 'Dr Frankenstein' comment, especially as an admirer of old horror films (and I have read the book as well). No, not sure that I'm going to rush out and buy it. However, I'm also an admirer of that early chamber music Hyperion CD which, I think, includes the early Piano Quintet which I like very much.

[aligreto]

Here's the opening of Household Music (orchestrated version):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iQJYuFGJZY0
I don't think it sounds like 'Sinfonia Domestica' 

Thank you for the link Jeffrey. I did enjoy it and yes, I do agree that it sounds nothing like Symphonia Domestica [which I too dislike BTW  ].

[Biffo]

I doubt it Fergus. I do have a CD of the VW coupled with 'Riders to the Sea' on Chandos and I remember enjoying it. I suspect that it's much better than 'Sinfonia Domestica' which I can't stand. The same goes for 'An Alpine Symphony' (which I misguidedly bought recently) and worst of all 'Ein Heldenleben', which probably puts me in the minority here.

I had to listen to Household Music after the above comments. I have the same Chandos CD. The work is subtitled Three Preludes on Welsh Hymn Tunes which, as the helpful booklet points out, is a better description but RVW had used that title already. It is a wartime work and written to be performed by any combination of instruments available; the first performance was given by the Blech String Quartet. I find it a pleasant work but some of it rather generic RVW, No 3, the variations on Aberystwyth, perhaps deserves to be better known.

I love some of Strauss' tone poems, including Ein Heldenleben, but not the Sinfonia Domestica - the best efforts of such luminaries as George Szell and Rudolf Kempe fail to convince me.

[aligreto]

I had to listen to Household Music after the above comments. I have the same Chandos CD. The work is subtitled Three Preludes on Welsh Hymn Tunes which, as the helpful booklet points out, is a better description but RVW had used that title already. It is a wartime work and written to be performed by any combination of instruments available; the first performance was given by the Blech String Quartet. I find it a pleasant work but some of it rather generic RVW, No 3, the variations on Aberystwyth, perhaps deserves to be better known.

I love some of Strauss' tone poems, including Ein Heldenleben, but not the Sinfonia Domestica - the best efforts of such luminaries as George Szell and Rudolf Kempe fail to convince me.

Thank you for the information on Household Music Biffo; much appreciated.

[Roasted Swan]

I had to listen to Household Music after the above comments. I have the same Chandos CD. The work is subtitled Three Preludes on Welsh Hymn Tunes which, as the helpful booklet points out, is a better description but RVW had used that title already. It is a wartime work and written to be performed by any combination of instruments available; the first performance was given by the Blech String Quartet. I find it a pleasant work but some of it rather generic RVW, No 3, the variations on Aberystwyth, perhaps deserves to be better known.

I love some of Strauss' tone poems, including Ein Heldenleben, but not the Sinfonia Domestica - the best efforts of such luminaries as George Szell and Rudolf Kempe fail to convince me.

Not strictly the thread for this comment......(!) I really like Domestica and the Alpine Symphony.  Perhaps not every day of the week but when I'm in an epic mood I love 'em.

[Christo]

I suspect that it's much better than 'Sinfonia Domestica' which I can't stand. The same goes for 'An Alpine Symphony' (which I misguidedly bought recently) and worst of all 'Ein Heldenleben', which probably puts me in the minority here.

I do quite like Don Juan and a work for organ and orchestra as well as Till Eulenspiegel.

Not the first time I feel obliged to repeat that among the few pieces by Richard Strauss I can stand - by far the most I simply cannot, how much I tried - are Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche, the Festliches Präludium Op. 61 for organ & large orchestra & of course the Feierlicher Einzug der Ritter des Johanniterordens, Investitur Marsch for brass & timpani (I think sometimes organ too). I fail to see any connection with RVW's music even in these pieces, indeed the "dissimilarity" between these two contemparies no doubt a major cause of my dislike for Strauss. 

[vandermolen]

Not the first time I feel obliged to repeat that among the few pieces by Richard Strauss I can stand - by far the most I simply cannot, how much I tried - are Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche, the Festliches Präludium Op. 61 for organ & large orchestra & of course the Feierlicher Einzug der Ritter des Johanniterordens, Investitur Marsch for brass & timpani (I think sometimes organ too). I fail to see any connection with RVW's music even in these pieces, indeed the "dissimilarity" between these two contemparies no doubt a major cause of my dislike for Strauss. 

OT
I seem to recall that Tchaikovsky, in reference to  the young R.Strauss, said that he'd never seen such pretentiousness linked with such lack of talent. Might have got this wrong.

[relm1]

OT
I seem to recall that Tchaikovsky, in reference to  the young R.Strauss, said that he'd never seen such pretentiousness linked with such lack of talent. Might have got this wrong.

An elder Brahms said "But Richard Strauss, keep an eye out for that one, he shows great promise".  BUT, Brahms only lived to hear Strauss's early phase which was heavily indebted to Brahms and not what his reputation today lies on.

[vandermolen]

An elder Brahms said "But Richard Strauss, keep an eye out for that one, he shows great promise".  BUT, Brahms only lived to hear Strauss's early phase which was heavily indebted to Brahms and not what his reputation today lies on.

Interesting! Thanks Karim.

[Roasted Swan]

An elder Brahms said "But Richard Strauss, keep an eye out for that one, he shows great promise".  BUT, Brahms only lived to hear Strauss's early phase which was heavily indebted to Brahms and not what his reputation today lies on.

Why the vitriol for Strauss?  For sure the big tone poems dealing with life, the universe and everything can seem pretentious but what is wrong with aiming for the stars.... especially when you are young?  But to say he lacked talent is simply absurd - and if Tchaikovsky did say that (a composer I love) - then it is beneath him and smacks of professional jealousy rather than an objective remark.  Perhaps he envied Struass' stellar career at a young age while he was still struggling in comparison. 

When you listen to those rafts of generic kapellmeister composers that now turn up on CPO - technically accomplished and worthy but lacking a fraction of Strauss' genius - the achievement is clear whether the manner of the music appeals or not.

[vandermolen]

Why the vitriol for Strauss?  For sure the big tone poems dealing with life, the universe and everything can seem pretentious but what is wrong with aiming for the stars.... especially when you are young?  But to say he lacked talent is simply absurd - and if Tchaikovsky did say that (a composer I love) - then it is beneath him and smacks of professional jealousy rather than an objective remark.  Perhaps he envied Struass' stellar career at a young age while he was still struggling in comparison. 

When you listen to those rafts of generic kapellmeister composers that now turn up on CPO - technically accomplished and worthy but lacking a fraction of Strauss' genius - the achievement is clear whether the manner of the music appeals or not.

Well, I must definitely have another go at RS, especially having recently purchased 'An Alpine Symphony' and recognise that others admire his music greatly.

[relm1]

Why the vitriol for Strauss?  For sure the big tone poems dealing with life, the universe and everything can seem pretentious but what is wrong with aiming for the stars.... especially when you are young?  But to say he lacked talent is simply absurd - and if Tchaikovsky did say that (a composer I love) - then it is beneath him and smacks of professional jealousy rather than an objective remark.  Perhaps he envied Struass' stellar career at a young age while he was still struggling in comparison. 

When you listen to those rafts of generic kapellmeister composers that now turn up on CPO - technically accomplished and worthy but lacking a fraction of Strauss' genius - the achievement is clear whether the manner of the music appeals or not.

Why your response to me if I had no vitriol at all?  I am a brass player and love Strauss especially the big stuff.

[Irons]

 

When you listen to those rafts of generic kapellmeister composers that now turn up on CPO - technically accomplished and worthy but lacking a fraction of Strauss' genius - the achievement is clear whether the manner of the music appeals or not.

There is a lot of truth in this.

[Christo]

Well John, let me think.
I think that Previn is unrivalled in A London Symphony, A Pastoral Symphony and Symphony No.8. No.5 is very good as well and I've come to appreciate 6 more in recent years. Thompson is very strong in No.6 and 9. I actually enjoy all of his performances but those two stand out for me as does his LP/CD of Dona Nobis Pacem and Five Mystical Songs:

Both the Previn and the Thomson cycle as a whole are by far the two best overall IMHO, and we only seem to differ in some detail. I appreciate the Thomson somewhat more than average here, e.g. his Eigth, whereas I do not really care so much for the 'London' apart for the two middle movements - and generally prefer the extended 1920 version over the later, shortened one. But all of these are merely details: Previn it is + Thomson. So far, everything Martyn Brabbins came forth with - the 1920 London, A Pastoral & the Fourth especially - may turn out to become the third, equally succesful cycle. (At the other end of the spectre, by far worst cycle of them all: the Bernard Haitink  ).

[vandermolen]

Both the Previn and the Thomson cycle as a whole are by far the two best overall IMHO, and we only seem to differ in some detail. I appreciate the Thomson somewhat more than average here, e.g. his Eigth, whereas I do not really care so much for the 'London' apart for the two middle movements - and generally prefer the extended 1920 version over the later, shortened one. But all of these are merely details: Previn it is + Thomson. So far, everything Martyn Brabbins came forth with - the 1920 London, A Pastoral & the Fourth especially - may turn out to become the third, equally succesful cycle. (At the other end of the spectre, by far worst cycle of them all: the Bernard Haitink  ).

Yes, we a largely agree although it was Haitink's 'Sea Symphony' which brought that work alive for me as did his recording of Shostakovich's 13th Symphony 'Babi-Yar'. I have the Haitink box set but haven't played anything other than A Sea Symphony recently. Actually I did like his recording of Symphony No.6 with 'On Wenlock Edge' and 'In the Fen Country' and I know that his 'Antartica' is rated highly by some. Totally with you on the 1920 version of A London Symphony.

[aligreto]

Symphony No. 8

After "A Sea Symphony", which I eventually cracked, Symphony No. 8 was always another one that gave me a lot of difficulty in coming to terms with; the sound world of the first two movements in particular. Now I find the sound world [and by inference the scoring] to be both intriguing and thrilling. I also find the variety of tones and moods to be very engaging.


Boult:




Boult's orchestral strings are rich in tone and play with intensity and with great lyricism throughout. The tension and drama in the first movement is wonderfully portrayed under Boult; a Fantasia with something of a dark and disconcerting undercurrent. The Scherzo is wonderful in its quirky and playful way and I find it somewhat reminiscent of something that Stravinsky might have been thinking of while sitting in a café somewhere. The same mellifluous tones that prevail in the first movement return in the Cavatina. That dark and slightly menacing undercurrent also returns; that pizzicato double bass motif is wonderful. The final movement is a great drive for a final solution musically. Boult balances the elements quite well culminating in a fine, spirited conclusion.

I would say that Boult's reading is quite exciting, appealing in its tone, suitably tense and dramatic in atmosphere and well worked in terms of architecture, pacing and overall effect; powerful without being over exuberant.



Previn:





Previn's reading of the first movement is filled with tension, drama and some excitement. I find the Previn reading of the first movement to be primarily a lyrical one. I do not find it, in general, to be as dark or as disconcerting as that of Boult but it has a greater, different, sense of drama, for me. Previn's version of the Scherzo is quite different, for me, than Boult's. I find it to be less effective and atmospheric; it is fine but not as quirky or zany as Boult's is. The Cavatina tends towards the lyrical as opposed to the darkness of Boult. Previn's reading of the final movement is very fine and his drive towards, and ultimate conclusion of the climax is both satisfying and rewarding.

I find that Previn's reading is a sober, contemplative one in terms of tone, tends towards the lyrical, even pastoral and contains adequate tension and sufficient drama at times in terms of atmosphere. The pacing is also fine. Previn's strings are not, for me, as full or as rich as those of Boult. This is irrelevant in the context of Previn's overall reading but is worth noting I think.


Barbirolli:





Barbirolli's reading of the Fantasia is ardent and assertive. It is more purposeful and threatening than disconcerterting, I find. The Scherzo is playful and quirky and sounds somewhat Stravinskian in tone. The Cavatina is somewhat sombre and plaintive in tone without being excessively dark or menacing; it is rich in colour and texture. A strong element of positivity, vibrancy and exuberance prevail in the the final movement which serves the music well.

Barbirolli's reading of this work is robust, ardent in tone and quite tense and dramatic in terms of atmosphere. I feel that Barbirolli has a good grasp of the architecture of this work and delivers a powerful and captivating presentation.

[vandermolen]

Symphony No. 8

After "A Sea Symphony", which I eventually cracked, Symphony No. 8 was always another one that gave me a lot of difficulty in coming to terms with; the sound world of the first two movements in particular. Now I find the sound world [and by inference the scoring] to be both intriguing and thrilling. I also find the variety of tones and moods to be very engaging.


Boult:




Boult's orchestral strings are rich in tone and play with intensity and with great lyricism throughout. The tension and drama in the first movement is wonderfully portrayed under Boult; a Fantasia with something of a dark and disconcerting undercurrent. The Scherzo is wonderful in its quirky and playful way and I find it somewhat reminiscent of something that Stravinsky might have been thinking of while sitting in a café somewhere. The same mellifluous tones that prevail in the first movement return in the Cavatina. That dark and slightly menacing undercurrent also returns; that pizzicato double bass motif is wonderful. The final movement is a great drive for a final solution musically. Boult balances the elements quite well culminating in a fine, spirited conclusion.

I would say that Boult's reading is quite exciting, appealing in its tone, suitably tense and dramatic in atmosphere and well worked in terms of architecture, pacing and overall effect; powerful without being over exuberant.



Previn:





Previn's reading of the first movement is filled with tension, drama and some excitement. I find the Previn reading of the first movement to be primarily a lyrical one. I do not find it, in general, to be as dark or as disconcerting as that of Boult but it has a greater, different, sense of drama, for me. Previn's version of the Scherzo is quite different, for me, than Boult's. I find it to be less effective and atmospheric; it is fine but not as quirky or zany as Boult's is. The Cavatina tends towards the lyrical as opposed to the darkness of Boult. Previn's reading of the final movement is very fine and his drive towards, and ultimate conclusion of the climax is both satisfying and rewarding.

I find that Previn's reading is a sober, contemplative one in terms of tone, tends towards the lyrical, even pastoral and contains adequate tension and sufficient drama at times in terms of atmosphere. The pacing is also fine. Previn's strings are not, for me, as full or as rich as those of Boult. This is irrelevant in the context of Previn's overall reading but is worth noting I think.


Barbirolli:





Barbirolli's reading of the Fantasia is ardent and assertive. It is more purposeful and threatening than disconcerterting, I find. The Scherzo is playful and quirky and sounds somewhat Stravinskian in tone. The Cavatina is somewhat sombre and plaintive in tone without being excessively dark or menacing; it is rich in colour and texture. A strong element of positivity, vibrancy and exuberance prevail in the the final movement which serves the music well.

Barbirolli's reading of this work is robust, ardent in tone and quite tense and dramatic in terms of atmosphere. I feel that Barbirolli has a good grasp of the architecture of this work and delivers a powerful and captivating presentation.

An interesting comparative analysis Fergus which I enjoyed reading. Decca issued Symphony No.8 (the only one of the Decca set recorded in stereo) as a 'Legendary Performance' some years ago with its unusual Rachmaninov coupling: