Complete Schubert Symphonies on Period Instruments

[PerfectWagnerite]

Any advice? I only know of three complete sets: Brueggen, Goodman, and Immerseel? Doesn't seem to be as many complete cycles on period instruments as Beethoven. I don't really like the Brueggen nor Goodman, both are rather bland. Anyone with their favorites?

[Harry]

May I join the company.
I have listen to a few samples of the Immerseel recordings, and what strikes me, that he is a slow mover, at least for me. Well done but slow. But the box is cheap, about 27 euro's at JPC, so maybe for the fun of it I will order it.
Anyone know more alternatives?

[PerfectWagnerite]

There is also the Zender set on Hanssler which is with a modern orchestra. But I noticed that some of Hanssler's recordings such as Thomas Fey's Haydn recordings it is modern orchestra employing historically informed practice meaning cleaner articulation, sharper string and brass sounds etc.. So I am not sure whether the Zender set is like the Fey Haydn symphonies or is it just modern orchestra sounding all the way.

[JoshLilly]

Are any of those period-instrument sets using original scores or as close as possible? I know that most recordings of the 9th, for instance, use a cut version initiated by Brahms. Abbado is a modern set, the one I have, but in the liner notes it claims to attempt to restore each of the symphonies to original, or as close as currently exists.

[jwinter]

I have the Goodman.  I must say I don't listen to it much, primarily because  of the sound -- it's rather reverberant, echoey and blurry, and tends to mask a lot of the fine details (which is why you'd want HIP in the first place, IMO).  A shame, really.  Performance-wise it seems OK, but I wouldn't recommend it.

[Brian]

Are any of those period-instrument sets using original scores or as close as possible? I know that most recordings of the 9th, for instance, use a cut version initiated by Brahms. Abbado is a modern set, the one I have, but in the liner notes it claims to attempt to restore each of the symphonies to original, or as close as currently exists.

Harnoncourt does the same, with a modern orchestra; the booklet notes detail a significant number of changes made to the published scores to bring them closer to Schubert's original. (In addition Harnoncourt numbers them 1-8 instead of 1-9.)

[hautbois]

Harnoncourt does the same, with a modern orchestra; the booklet notes detail a significant number of changes made to the published scores to bring them closer to Schubert's original. (In addition Harnoncourt numbers them 1-8 instead of 1-9.)

The lesser known symphonies on Harnoncourt's cycle really shine. Performances that really shines, has something to say, and is exuberant and exciting.

Howard

[M forever]

Harnoncourt does the same, with a modern orchestra; the booklet notes detail a significant number of changes made to the published scores to bring them closer to Schubert's original. (In addition Harnoncourt numbers them 1-8 instead of 1-9.)

That's not really Harnoncourt, the Deutsch-Verzeichnis, the list of the works of Schubert has listed the symphony in C major "D"944 as No.8 for a long time.

The performance of that symphony in that set is one of the most amazing examples of great orchestral culture I have heard on disc. The palette of sounds that Harnoncourt gets from the Concertgebouworkest is amazing, from earthy and robust to weightlessly floating. I have never heard a performance which illuminates the constant texture changes in the slow movement like this one, subtly but clearly, like shifts of light.

[Lilas Pastia]

Why the "complete" Schubert symphonies on period instruments ? More than any other composer's works, Schubert's sit across the Great Divide: the classical and romantic periods. Straightjacketing the whole lot in one set of garbs will just not do , whether it's the Completes Sonatas on fortepiano (or modern grand), or the Completete Symphonies on PI or MI.

I don't care for the Goodman, the sound is just terrible. A dozen players recorded in an airplane hangar . Brüggen is only marginally better engineered, but still strident and glassy sounding.

Symphonies 1-4 can reasonably - and advantageously - be performed with PI or chamber orchestra. Helmut Rilling's Galicia recordings (Hänssler) are just extraordinary: translucent winds carolling and levitating, springy strings bouncing and dancing, it doesn't come any better than that (the Zender is of the same persuasion, but it's a case of a potentially interesting set of readings sounding like comfy late-evening Schubert).

Symphonies 5-8 (or 9, c'est selon) demand more glow and depth of sound from the low strings, and more projection from the harmonie (winds and brass - in 8 and 9) than PI can provide. Obviously there are other qualities, but they can't convey the Geister über den Wassern  and Weltschmerz feeling the slow movements require. For these, nothing replaces the more sonorous, denser sounds of the modern orchestra. I have no favourites for # 6 (I'm rather indifferent to that work), but for 5 I'd suggest giving a listen to the Walter Columbia SO, Böhm VPO and Jochum BRSO recordings. As for 8 and 9, the list is extensive and everybody has their favourites. I prefer those that are urgent, feverish, dramatic.

[M forever]

I don't care for the Goodman, the sound is just terrible. A dozen players recorded in an airplane hangar . Brüggen is only marginally better engineered, but still strident and glassy sounding.

A lot of the stuff Brüggen does is also pretty weird. He plays early 19th century music with a baroque sound and esthetic. I think that's pretty pseudo. But most people don't get that anyway. For them anything with gut strings is "HIP".

Why the "complete" Schubert symphonies on period instruments ? More than any other composer's works, Schubert's sit across the Great Divide: the classical and romantic periods. Straightjacketing the whole lot in one set of garbs will just not do

I think straightjacketing the music in some simplistic, preconceived ideas about what is "classical" and "romantic" won't do either. The later symphonies like the "Great C major" can work very well on period instruments or in "historically informed" performances, as Mackerras demoed very impressively in both his period instrument recording with the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment and the one with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra on modern instruments (I think the latter is a little better).

The "Great C major" symphony is pure musical energy, rhythmical drive is extremely important and that sometimes doesn't really take off in big orchestra readings. Mackerras shows that clarity, rhythmical edginess and groove are the most important ingredients to make this symphony work. I also like "big" readings though. A really good one which is also pretty urgent and dramatic but which doesn't neglect the lyrical elements either is Sinopoli's with the SD. Unfortunately they don't take the repeats in the outer movements, probably so they could fit the "Unfinished" on the disc as well. But then that is a very interesting reading, too, very different from his earlier, very well known Philharmonia recording.

[FideLeo]

Bruno Weil for 5689

[PerfectWagnerite]

Why the "complete" Schubert symphonies on period instruments ? More than any other composer's works, Schubert's sit across the Great Divide: the classical and romantic periods. Straightjacketing the whole lot in one set of garbs will just not do , whether it's the Completes Sonatas on fortepiano (or modern grand), or the Completete Symphonies on PI or MI.

Well, the title of the thread was just a starting point. I knew that after after 3 or 4 posts it will move to other readings of these works and that's fine.

A lot of the stuff Brüggen does is also pretty weird. He plays early 19th century music with a baroque sound and esthetic. I think that's pretty pseudo. But most people don't get that anyway. For them anything with gut strings is "HIP".

That's why I titled the thread "period instruments" and not "HIP" so whether or not Brüggen is HIP (I leave that to people who know more about that than I do to argue that) he is still on "period instruments" and will fall under this thread.

[Que]

I have advocated Jos van Immerseel's IMO revelatory Schubert cycle on many occasions here (as his Mozart), but unfamiliarity with this conductor and his period instruments ensemble "Anima Eterna" seems unfortunately for some a too big a hurdle to take.



So, Ill be brief this time.

Q

[M forever]

That's why I titled the thread "period instruments" and not "HIP" so whether or not Brüggen is HIP (I leave that to people who know more about that than I do to argue that) he is still on "period instruments" and will fall under this thread.

But it's pretty pointless and more than just a little pseudo if the style is that of an earlier age than the composition. That historical situation never existed. It might be fun to hear Wagner on Renaissance instruments some time, but it certainly wouldn't be a relevant contribution.

I have the Immerseel set but haven't listened to all of it yet. What I have heard so far all left a good impression but didn't melt my socks off either. There isn't really that much of a difference here or even advantage gained by the period instruments. Partially because the sound is a little on the muffled side and a lot of the transparency that could have been gained from using the gut strings is lost in it. They don't actually sound all that "period" in many places. Musically, they are pretty good, but a little on the stiff and mechanical side. Schubert's music needs a lot of groove and a certain freely singing tone. Immerseel doesn't really quite have that. Again, if you want to explore that a little, you get much more of that in Harnoncourt's Amsterdam set.

Anyway, here are two clips from the Immerseel set: No.4, 2nd movement No.8(9), first movement

If it has to be period instruments, I can really recommend you to get the 2fer of 5,8,9 (old numbering) with OAE/Mackerras and/or 8 and 9 with SCO/Mackerras. That disc I think is musically even a little better than the OAE one, and it has at least "period" horns and trumpets; the complete set with RCO/Harnoncourt; and then of course a lot of really good individual recordings, be they on period instruments, "HIP" or traditional or whatever.
Even though I am not a big fan of Sir Colin D's sometimes heavyhanded approach to this repertoire, his SD set is something of a "guilty pleasure" for me because the playing is just too stylish and just sounds too good to resist. The SD is particularly good in this repertoire because they have exactly that mix of earthiness and that singing quality. They also recorded complete cycles with Sawallisch and Blomstedt, neither of which unfortunately seem to be avaliable as boxed sets, but they can easily be collected for little money.
There are many very good recordings of individual symphonies on "modern" instruments, and that is a whole discussion in itself, of course, but let me just point out the great recordings of 4,8,9 (old numbering) with Giulini and the CSO because these are fairly rare, undeservedly so because they are great performances. I am not even sure DG ever released the Great C major on CD because I can not find a trace of it. They put the 4th on a CD with Giulini's Beethoven 6 from LA and the Unfinished is available in a number of couplings (e.g. Mahler 9 on "Originals"). That's a shame, these are outstanding performances with intensity and weight, but also a lot of drive, so they don't get lumbering. The 4th is particularly intensive, a real trip. And the CSO sounds great in these recordings, compact and edgy, but with depth, not as screechy and glary as they often sound on disc.

[M forever]

I have advocated Jos van Immerseel's IMO revelatory Schubert cycle on many occasions here

Could you elaborate on that a little bit? Like I said above, I find what I heard of that set so far pretty good, but I don't see it as "revelatory". Apparently, I am missing something here. What is it?

[PerfectWagnerite]

Thanks for the recommendations M, I have the Mackerras OAE late symphonies and they are indeed marvelous. I also have the Sawallisch set you were referring to and it is probably my favorite modern instrument version. Sawallisch is such a natural Schubert conductor. He just make the early symphonies fun pieces in the classical style that they are with some extremely sharply articulated playing from the SD woodwinds. Also I like how the SD is able to turn on a dime from the softest passages to ff in a heartbeat. This set is now available cheaply on two Philips Duos (which is the version I have).

Another set I don't quite understand is the HVK one on EMI (also available cheaply on 4 EMI Gemini Cds). For some reason HVK decides for a muscular, mighty, big-band texture for Schubert (like he did for Brahms and Schumann) which isn't quite in character with this music. It is stranger that for Strauss and Wagner and even Mahler he aimed at a much more restrained and chamber-music kind of approach. All in all HVK offers an extremely exciting and addicting reading (the Great C Major comes off sounding like Bruckner in many places) but I am not sure whether this is the "correct" way to play Schubert.

I may just pick up the Immerseel set which is available now for not that much money on Amazon.

[PerfectWagnerite]

But it's pretty pointless and more than just a little pseudo if the style is that of an earlier age than the composition. That historical situation never existed. It might be fun to hear Wagner on Renaissance instruments some time, but it certainly wouldn't be a relevant contribution.

Well they have early music like Gabrieli adopted for modern brass band and all right? So why not Wagner on Renaissance instruments

Talk about anachronistic, what do you think about Jordi Savall's Eroica? That's like performing Beethoven on early Baroque instruments (maybe not?) but somehow I cannot believe that violins sound so thin in Beethoven's time nor do I believe trumpets sound so shrill.

[Lethevich]

I have the Goodman.  I must say I don't listen to it much, primarily because  of the sound -- it's rather reverberant, echoey and blurry, and tends to mask a lot of the fine details (which is why you'd want HIP in the first place, IMO).  A shame, really.  Performance-wise it seems OK, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Hehe, welcome to Planet Nimbus They wrecked Goodman's Beethoven cycle, and several Haydn discs with similar acoustics...

[Sergeant Rock]

I may just pick up the Immerseel set which is available now for not that much money on Amazon.

Bargain-priced in Germany too. I just ordered it from JPC. Thanks, Q.

Sarge

[M forever]

All in all HVK offers an extremely exciting and addicting reading (the Great C Major comes off sounding like Bruckner in many places) but I am not sure whether this is the "correct" way to play Schubert.

I don't know these recordings. I only have his Great C major on DG which is so polished that one reviewer once called it "a tour of chromium heaven"  
There are *a lot* of connections between Schubert and Bruckner. The Great C major symphony pre-echoes Bruckner's music in many ways.

Talk about anachronistic, what do you think about Jordi Savall's Eroica? That's like performing Beethoven on early Baroque instruments (maybe not?) but somehow I cannot believe that violins sound so thin in Beethoven's time nor do I believe trumpets sound so shrill.

Dunno that recording either, but I would like to hear it. Savall is a great gamba player. I don't know if that applies here, but there are a lot of these anachronisms going on in the "HIP" scene which makes these whole effort rather pointless and rather fake, too. You are making a big mistake there, though: whether or not instruments sounded like this or that in Beethoven's time is not something you can imagine unless you study it, that has not much to do with believing what they did or should sound like, probably based on hearing the music played with later performance conventions. Investigating and rediscovering the music through that is the main point of "HIP".
But again, that is just a general comment since I have not heard Savall's recording yet.