Is Mozart Greater Than Wagner in Opera ?

[M forever]

When it comes to the Ring Cycle alone I have heard it argued that "what defies explanation is that one man can have in him, the totality, the complexity, the total immensity of that design".  I think in that regard no opera composer can compete with Wagner.

I doubt that you can completely grasp any of the Mozart operas either - no one really can -, so that is a moot point. The outer dimensions of the Ring are certainly very impressive. But that doesn't necessarily mean "more is better". Nor does it mean it isn't. Again, the whole comparison is just total banana.

[marvinbrown]

I doubt that you can completely grasp any of the Mozart operas either - no one really can -, so that is a moot point. The outer dimensions of the Ring are certainly very impressive. But that doesn't necessarily mean "more is better". Nor does it mean it isn't. Again, the whole comparison is just total banana.

  Yes I totally agree with you that comparisons between the two with the aim of determining who is greater is meaningless (I wouldn't want to be without Mozart's operas either!), that said after viewing the results (pro-Mozart) of the poll I just felt compelled to vote no and defend my man Wagner- which technically does not imply that Wagner is greater but hey, I'm human, and not immune to prejudices as it were.

  marvin 

[PSmith08]

Well, as it has been pointed out, Wagner would likely say "Yes, Mozart is greater than me in opera." It does not really need, though it shall receive it, repeating that Wagner was writing music-dramas, which are discrete entities that have some things, but not all things, in common with opera as Mozart would have understood it.

Despite the cheering of my fellow Wagnerians, such as it is, I would say that - if you compare Wagner's grand operas, the only things remotely comparable to Mozart's mature output, and even then not entirely analogous, to Mozart's later works - it's a tossup. Taking recourse to Der Ring des Nibelungen and Parsifal in this situation doesn't make a lot of sense. You'd have to compare Tannhäuser, Lohengrin, and/or Der fliegende Holländer. In those terms, and even then, he was pointing toward his new directions, so you'd have to throw Rienzi into the mix, I don't think a clear winner emerges. Mozart and Wagner both did great things, but they weren't really trying to do the same thing.

The premise of the poll isn't sound to my mind, and the attempts to bring mature Wagner to bear on mature Mozart strike me as more unsound, if that is possible.

[Valentino]

The only operas I really need is Cosí, Figaro and Don Giovanni.
Besides, Wagner is not my cup of tea.

So: In my opinion the answer to the question in the title is yes.


(Edited for late night cross-eyed typos.)

[hornteacher]

The only operas relly I need is Cosí, Figaro and Don Giovanni.
Besides, Wagner is not my cup of tea.

So: In my opinion the answer to the question in the title is yes.

Yes, I tend to agree.  I've tried The Ring, Fidelio, Rusalka, Carmen, Madame Butterfly, La Boheme, and others and I always end up going back to Mozart's operas for the greatest satisfaction.

[paulb]

The only operas relly I need is Cosí, Figaro and Don Giovanni.
Besides, Wagner is not my cup of tea.

So: In my opinion the answer to the question in the title is yes.

You have chosen well.
Mozart appeals to a  much wider range of people. What no Magic Flute? Mozart is the most popular operatic composer, with no one even close to his accomplishments.
Wagner appeals  to a   more selective group. I am drawn to Wagner for its mythological, psychological implications, as much as the music.
Not sure if my german ancestory comes in to play here. It would be interesting to see which countries are most fond of Wagner and which take less interest. Obviously in germany Wagner is enormously popluar. The french I  suspect is not all that interested in Wagnerian opera.

[Sarastro]

It would be interesting to see which countries are most fond of Wagner and which take less interest. Obviously in germany Wagner is enormously popluar. The french I  suspect is not all that interested in Wagnerian opera.

Russian theaters frequently had Wagner in repertoire, though some time ago, and Mariinsky theater (or Kirov - as it's known abroad) has its own Ring Cycle.

[PSmith08]

The french I  suspect is not all that interested in Wagnerian opera.

Well, I mean, that would be the case if you discounted the fact that Pierre Boulez, who has had quite a run at Bayreuth, say what you will of his style, is quite French. Wagner also had some influence on other French composers.

[paulb]

Russian theaters frequently had Wagner in repertoire, though some time ago, and Mariinsky theater (or Kirov - as it's known abroad) has its own Ring Cycle.

Thanks for the info. I had a  hunch the russians would take to Wagner, and even to having their own Ring Cycle regularly performed. Would it be facinating to hear those deep russian baritones cast in the Ring, deep heavy dark voices. WOW!!

[paulb]

Well, I mean, that would be the case if you discounted the fact that Pierre Boulez, who has had quite a run at Bayreuth, say what you will of his style, is quite French. Wagner also had some influence on other French composers.

Boulez is quite exceptional in most every thing he recorded. But a  french style Ring, , not sure how that would come out.
I should now mention the other 2 Rings that i have found over the years that closely equal the Furtwangler RAI, in fact do most often. They are Kielberth 1952 and the 1953. The 53 just nudges out the incredible 52. Its doubtful I'd take much of an interest in Boulez, as much as I love his conducting.

Wagner's Tristan made a  powerful impression on Debussy and I would guess Ravel felt the same. I read that somewhere in this book i have on Memoirs of Debussy.

[Sarastro]

Thanks for the info. I had a  hunch the russians would take to Wagner, and even to having their own Ring Cycle regularly performed. Would it be facinating to hear those deep russian baritones cast in the Ring, deep heavy dark voices. WOW!!

I know even some russian sopranos did sing Brunhilde, Sieglinde, Senta and some other.

[BachQ]

it's not everyday that you run into a "hardcore Pelleastrian". We are a rare breed.

Tis a pity ..........

[wagnernn]

Wagner 's operas are great and wonderful, but I really doubt of their immortal positions in the world of opera. 
Do you think that one day people will give up their interests in Wagnerian?

[Sarastro]

We are a rare breed.

That sounds terribly and offensive. First step. Next is "we are white", and then - let's kill the Jewish! We are all human, I'm certain about that, and everyone is unique. It's not a moralization, it's simply the truth.

If I had been a little smarter I would have said nothing. 

[Gustav]

That sounds terribly and offensive. First step. Next is "we are white", and then - let's kill the Jewish! We are all human, I'm certain about that, and everyone is unique. It's not a moralization, it's simply the truth.

If I had been a little smarter I would have said nothing. 

[M forever]

O.k., so I may be a little eccentric when it comes to my operatic pronunciamentos.... O.k., so I believe that concert performances of operas are often a good thing......O.k., so I believe that Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande is the finest of all operas (despite several weak spots here and there).

Are these such bad things ?

Not at all. Again,

You can like and dislike whatever you want, why does it always have to be "the greatest" or why does this has to be "greater" than that? This comparison is just total nonsense.

But you're right, maybe I should learn to be more reserved about these things.

I didn't say that. You are completely free to express your enthusiasm. Nobody wants to suppress that. And, again,

You can like and dislike whatever you want, why does it always have to be "the greatest" or why does this has to be "greater" than that? This comparison is just total nonsense.

That seems to be awfully hard to understand. Let me just say that once more:

You can like and dislike whatever you want, why does it always have to be "the greatest" or why does this has to be "greater" than that? This comparison is just total nonsense.

[uffeviking]

Boulez is quite exceptional in most every thing he recorded. But a  french style Ring, , not sure how that would come out.

It came out quite successfully, rest assured! Maybe you can borrow at your local library the video of the 'Centenary Production' of the Bayreuth Ring performance, directed by Patrice Chéreau and conducted by Pierre Boulez; the historical performance, causing protests at the first performance and then met with the greatest enthusiastic applause the next time around.

[Sarastro]

That was a little nice unobtrusive joke...so unobtrusive that I didn't really understand it myself.  I swear I would do it no more.

PS: But still I don't like people speaking in such a way.

[M forever]

It came out quite successfully, rest assured! Maybe you can borrow at your local library the video of the 'Centenary Production' of the Bayreuth Ring performance, directed by Patrice Chéreau and conducted by Pierre Boulez; the historical performance, causing protests at the first performance and then met with the greatest enthusiastic applause the next time around.

Plus Boulez' wasn't "a French style" Ring. It was basically "Boulez", nothing specifically "French", whatever that may mean in this context.

[longears]

I like Mozart.  By my standards, many of his late operas are artistic triumphs, satisfying (and then some!) in virtually every respect:  The stories are entertaining, with plots driven by the character of all-too-human characters, accompanied by glorious music supporting memorable song, with wit and grace and tunefulness.  They are warm-hearted and forgiving.

I don't like Wagner.  Although I think he wrote some lovely music, there's just not enough of it to sustain my interest in his ponderously overlong and preposterously pompous plots that are as turgid as sinkholes in the desert and just as lively.  The characters aren't human, but archetypes--about as uninteresting and one-dimensional as the characters in children's Run-and-Gun computer games.  There are no songs, only a lot of tuneless shrieking that goes on much too long with lyrics that only reiterate the sophomoric self-importance of a narcissistic hack.  They are cold-hearted and judgmental.

These are my opinions.  You don't have to share them or even consider them.  As my wife is fond of saying, "You can agree with me...or you can be wrong." 

(BTW--some of my best friends like Wagner.  I'm sure some of my predilictions are as puzzling to them. )