USA Politics (redux)

[JBS]

JBS,

I'm curious as to what you think about these two judges' comments (in bold):

Wisconsin Supreme Court Tosses Trump Bid to Invalidate Votes
By Erik Larson
December 14, 2020, 12:23 PM EST Updated on December 14, 2020, 2:12 PM EST

Wisconsin's highest court rejected President Donald Trump's lawsuit seeking to throw out thousands of mail-in and absentee ballots in two big Democratic-leaning counties over alleged irregularities, ruling that he and his campaign waited too long to sue.

Trump, along with Vice President Mike Pence, should have brought their claims much sooner instead of waiting weeks after the Nov. 3 election, the Wisconsin Supreme Court said in a 4-3 decision Monday.

"The campaign's delay in raising these issues was unreasonable in the extreme" and it was seeking a remedy that would be unfair to election officials, other candidates and voters of the affected counties, the majority said.

The state's high court compared the timing to waiting until after the last play of the last game to start "challenging the rulebook adopted before the season began." The court had rejected the case once before, ruling Trump needed to start the case first before a trial judge, which the president then did.

The ruling comes as President-elect Joe Biden's victory is close to being affirmed by the Electoral College, which votes Monday.

Other lawsuits by the campaign have failed in battleground states across the country, as have several cases brought by GOP allies and a former campaign lawyer who alleged a vast Democratic conspiracy. The U.S. Supreme Court on Friday rejected a Hail Mary suit brought by Texas to flip the election to Trump.

In the Wisconsin ruling, a dissenting judge, Patience Roggensack, blasted the majority for cutting the case short when "a significant portion of the public does not believe" the election was conducted fairly. Roggensack pointed to evidence that a decision by Milwaukee's canvassing board to fix defective witness addresses on some ballots was based on "erroneous advice" that could lead to similar problems being "repeated again and again."

"Once again, four justices on this court cannot be bothered with addressing what the statutes require to assure that absentee ballots are lawfully cast," Roggensack said. "The electorate expects more of us, and we are capable of providing it."

Justice Annette Ziegler, in a separate dissent, said the majority was playing a game of "gotcha" by claiming Trump and Pence had waited too long.

"The majority seems to create a new bright-line rule that the candidates and voters are without recourse and without any notice should the court decide to later conjure up an artificial deadline concluding that it prefers that something would have been done earlier," Ziegler wrote. "That has never been the law, and it should not be today."

In the first-mentioned one, do you think that the case should have been heard?  Perhaps so that the people who don't believe that the election was fair would get to see how hard everyone fought to have a fair election (and overall succeeded there)?  And perhaps what problems can occur when their is miscommunication and misunderstanding by even the best-intentioned of poll workers?  And possibly bringing to light problems that could be then addressed in the future?

Just curious here.... 

PD

The dissenters do make some valid points but the people who think the election was rigged seem immune to the facts, so they wouldn't be convinced by anything now.

The Wisconsin legislature (GOP majority) is fully capable of investigating and legislating any problems they think occurred before the next election.

[T. D.]

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/14/michigan-rep-mitchell-quits-gop-for-refusal-to-accept-trump-loss-to-biden.html

Rep. Paul Mitchell of Michigan quit the Republican Party on Monday over the GOP's refusal to admit that President Donald Trump lost the election to President-elect Joe Biden.

Mitchell, in a scathing letter to GOP leaders, wrote that Trump's baseless claims alleging widespread ballot fraud, and the Republican Party's tolerance of those claims, threatened "long-term harm to our democracy."

"It is unacceptable for political candidates to treat our election system as though we are a third-world nation and incite distrust of something so basic as the sanctity of our vote," Mitchell wrote to Republican National Committee Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel and House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy of California.

"Further, it is unacceptable for the president to attack the Supreme Court of the United States because its judges, both liberal and conservative, did not rule with his side or that 'the Court failed him,'" wrote Mitchell, whose letter first was reported by CNN.

Mitchell is retiring from Congress when the current session ends early next year.

[T. D.]

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/14/attorney-general-william-barr-resigns-effective-dec-23.html

[Todd]

Biden won the electoral college vote.  I thought Trump stole the election.  What gives?

[Todd]

Trump tried to stole the election

No, he did not.  He engaged in various political and legal tactics to possibly change the outcome of the election, and to definitely build a political case for future political activity.  Simply repeating over and over that he tried to steal the election does not make it so. 

[milk]

No, he did not.  He engaged in various political and legal tactics to possibly change the outcome of the election, and to definitely build a political case for future political activity.  Simply repeating over and over that he tried to steal the election does not make it so.

I love this characterization. Hmm...political tactics. I see. All's fair in love and war. Anyway, I see how this has affected people in my family and feel sad about it; I mean if you'll excuse me. But I guess if people are rube enough to buy the steaks, wear the ties, and join trumper university then more power to him. I know, I know, all pols are bad guys; it's all hypocrisy. Meanwhile, who's really picking your pocket? Uncle Sam, Apple, Amazon? Drain the swamp, etc. etc.
My sister thinks Biden is a communist and the election STILL ain't over. She feels she's been victimized too. Har har.   

[Pohjolas Daughter]

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/14/michigan-rep-mitchell-quits-gop-for-refusal-to-accept-trump-loss-to-biden.html

Rep. Paul Mitchell of Michigan quit the Republican Party on Monday over the GOP's refusal to admit that President Donald Trump lost the election to President-elect Joe Biden.

Mitchell, in a scathing letter to GOP leaders, wrote that Trump's baseless claims alleging widespread ballot fraud, and the Republican Party's tolerance of those claims, threatened "long-term harm to our democracy."

"It is unacceptable for political candidates to treat our election system as though we are a third-world nation and incite distrust of something so basic as the sanctity of our vote," Mitchell wrote to Republican National Committee Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel and House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy of California.

"Further, it is unacceptable for the president to attack the Supreme Court of the United States because its judges, both liberal and conservative, did not rule with his side or that 'the Court failed him,'" wrote Mitchell, whose letter first was reported by CNN.

Mitchell is retiring from Congress when the current session ends early next year.

I heard and read that this morning.  Good for him! 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/14/attorney-general-william-barr-resigns-effective-dec-23.html

Heard that too, thanks.  Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when he and Pres. Trump were talking about him resigning!

PD

[MusicTurner]

I love this characterization. Hmm...political tactics. I see. All's fair in love and war. Anyway, I see how this has affected people in my family and feel sad about it; I mean if you'll excuse me. But I guess if people are rube enough to buy the steaks, wear the ties, and join trumper university then more power to him. I know, I know, all pols are bad guys; it's all hypocrisy. Meanwhile, who's really picking your pocket? Uncle Sam, Apple, Amazon? Drain the swamp, etc. etc.
My sister thinks Biden is a communist and the election STILL ain't over. She feels she's been victimized too. Har har.

Of course, most of us fully understand your post.

[Todd]

Mass hysteria is a real phenomenon.

[prémont]

Mass hysteria is a real phenomenon.

Certainly, and not the least among the Trump voters who believe in voting fraud.

[drogulus]

     Trump did try to "possibly" change the outcome of an election. People voted, there was an outcome, and he tried to change it. That's one way to describe an attempted election theft. It would have been difficult to try to stuff ballot boxes and Trump had no mechanism to intervene in the actual count as it was happening. He counted on a corrupted judiciary and pressure on state officials to do his dirty work. Perhaps it would have been easier to understand how thefty the effort has been if it succeeded. The pretense of doubt, or any actual doubt, would be inoperable.

     I think I understand why the judges didn't go along. Some are, in the parlance of a different era, straight. Others are reluctant to sacrifice the grand design for the sake of their disposable benefactor.

Certainly, and not the least among the Trump voters who believe in voting fraud.

     The evidence supports the claim that Trump tried to steal the election using "various political and legal tactics to possibly change the outcome".

     The evidence doesn't support the claim that the election was rigged in favor of Biden.

     

[Todd]

From the failing New York Times: After weeks of declining to recognize Biden's win, Mitch McConnell congratulates him for being the president-elect.

It's official now.  That is because only now is it official.  It is imperative to recognize the fact that the press plays no official or legitimate role in determining election winners.  I suspect mass hysteria concerning Trump's purported attempts to steal the election will continue nonetheless.

[BasilValentine]

Biden won the electoral college vote.  I thought Trump stole the election.  What gives?

What you thought is apparently your own personal delusion. You were asked to provide evidence that anyone on this forum or elsewhere said Trump stole the election. You couldn't.

Put up or shut up.

[drogulus]

     Trump wants to jail Georgia Gov. Kemp and Sec. State Ratburger for crimes against Trumpist humanity.

     This juicy bit is from The Hill:

President Trump on Tuesday shared a tweet that declared Georgia's Republican governor and secretary of state would end up in jail for declining to subvert the state's election results in Trump's favor.

The president retweeted Lin Wood, a Georgia-based attorney who has pushed unproven allegations of voter fraud in recent weeks, who targeted Gov. Brian Kemp (R) and Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger (R).

"President Trump @realDonaldTrump is a genuinely good man. He does not really like to fire people. I bet he dislikes putting people in jail, especially 'Republicans,'" Wood tweeted. "He gave @BrianKempGA & @GaSecofState every chance to get it right. They refused. They will soon be going to jail."

     

[flyingdutchman]

Of course Trump has done all in his power to steal the election. For example, his putting in DeJoy at the Post Office to destroy and dismantle processing machines. His demanding that ballots mailed be counted only on election day in many states. His pushing for Amy Coney Island to be put on the SCOTUS as a means to "insulate" himself.  Todd saying it didn't happen or it's "just politics" is typical of the rightwing.

[Todd]

My prediction has already come true.

[flyingdutchman]

From the failing New York Times: After weeks of declining to recognize Biden's win, Mitch McConnell congratulates him for being the president-elect.

It's official now.  That is because only now is it official.  It is imperative to recognize the fact that the press plays no official or legitimate role in determining election winners.  I suspect mass hysteria concerning Trump's purported attempts to steal the election will continue nonetheless.

NOT the case in past elections as ALL previous presidents conceded when the FACTS were clear and the voting data was evident. But keep on believing in your delusions.

[Karl Henning]

     Trump wants to jail Georgia Gov. Kemp and Sec. State Ratburger for crimes against Trumpist humanity.

     This juicy bit is from The Hill:

President Trump on Tuesday shared a tweet that declared Georgia's Republican governor and secretary of state would end up in jail for declining to subvert the state's election results in Trump's favor.

The president retweeted Lin Wood, a Georgia-based attorney who has pushed unproven allegations of voter fraud in recent weeks, who targeted Gov. Brian Kemp (R) and Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger (R).

"President Trump @realDonaldTrump is a genuinely good man. He does not really like to fire people. I bet he dislikes putting people in jail, especially 'Republicans,'" Wood tweeted. "He gave @BrianKempGA & @GaSecofState every chance to get it right. They refused. They will soon be going to jail."

     

I just don't see how anyone can see that as an authoritarian bent.

[Karl Henning]

Of course Trump has done all in his power to steal the election. For example, his putting in DeJoy at the Post Office to destroy and dismantle processing machines. His demanding that ballots mailed be counted only on election day in many states. His pushing for Amy Coney Island to be put on the SCOTUS as a means to "insulate" himself.  Todd saying it didn't happen or it's "just politics" is typical of the rightwing.

Your trying to reason with someone who's  uninterested in reasoning with you.

[Karl Henning]

"With Electoral College Vote More Republicans Acknowledge Biden's Victory"

Note the adjective more rather than all.