Wagner's Valhalla

[PerfectWagnerite]

I haven't had alot of experience hearing the Ring in English (just some of the Remedios), but what I have heard tends to be below standard overall. Of course, I'm keeping in mind it may have been myriad other factors, and perhaps someone can help me with this.

You are talking about the Goodall Ring Cycle I suppose. I can tell you few outside of England can ever entertain the thought that it is even of marginal quality. The singing is okay. Rita Hunter's Brunnhilde is actually a lot better than some of the also-rans they have singing the roles (like Jane Eaglen or Eva Marton). The problem I have with that production is the conducting and orchestral playing. Let's forget the fact that it is slow, and I mean glacially slow (some 3 hours longer than the Boehm for example), the orchestral execution is so bad that I would go as far to say even the dreaded RAI Orchestra under Furtwangler plays this music better. The strings are scratchy and imprecise, the brass reticent, and there are countless instances of ensemble slackless. Let's assume for a moment that Goodall had ample rehearsal time, after awhile you just say to yourself: okay, forget it, they just can't play this music, or this music is beyond Goodall's iffy conducting ability There is zero color or character from the orchestra. If you compare to any of the mainstream Rings out there you don't even recognize it is the same music.

For Goodall cults only.

[Haffner]

You are talking about the Goodall Ring Cycle I suppose. I can tell you few outside of England can ever entertain the thought that it is even of marginal quality. The singing is okay. Rita Hunter's Brunnhilde is actually a lot better than some of the also-rans they have singing the roles (like Jane Eaglen or Eva Marton). The problem I have with that production is the conducting and orchestral playing. Let's forget the fact that it is slow, and I mean glacially slow (some 3 hours longer than the Boehm for example), the orchestral execution is so bad that I would go as far to say even the dreaded RAI Orchestra under Furtwangler plays this music better. The strings are scratchy and imprecise, the brass reticent, and there are countless instances of ensemble slackless. Let's assume for a moment that Goodall had ample rehearsal time, after awhile you just say to yourself: okay, forget it, they just can't play this music, or this music is beyond Goodall's iffy conducting ability There is zero color or character from the orchestra. If you compare to any of the mainstream Rings out there you don't even recognize it is the same music.

For Goodall cults only.

You wrote was I too polite/deferential to write. Thanks, and sorry about my being such a wuss.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I write as I hear. This has nothing to do with being anti-British or whatever. Many on this board accuse Levine of being slow. Levine is slowish but he brings more out of the score than Goodall ever does. And the MET Orchestra versus the band that Goodall patched together? C'mon.

[knight66]

I am not so sure about 'few out of England'.....you might perhaps refer to the UK or GB, the Scots critics were also keen and would not appreciate being referred to as English. EMI sold a large number of the Goodall Ring in the US, I don't know numbers, but they were surprised, perhaps you would like to argue that these were ex-pat 'English'. I am no particular fan of Goodall. I recall his Tristan needed an extra LP above the norm. But, of course speed is only one element. Remedios was certainly up to the Siegfried at this point, though he was coached very carefully by Goodall and I don't feel he did well away from his mentor. I recall a disastrous Mahler 8 under Boulez.

Nor am I advocating we all listen to Wagner in English, it works much better for me than Carmen or Aida in English and I enjoy savoring the words where decent acting singers make something of the words. Nothing really substitutes for Wagner in German. But, I do buy some of the Chandos operas in English and quite a number work well, in addition to being considerable performances musically.

Certainly the initial studio disc I referred to has excellent playing and is most certainly not unusually slow. Or, perhaps I ought to say, it does not feel slow. Act 3 Scene 3 is longer than Solti by about six minutes.

Mike

[M forever]

Sean's contention about the cadential and harmonic bases being linked to the structure of the German language might have something to it.

Maybe. Or maybe not. That is not the point here. The point is that since Sean doesn't understand German, he shouldn't blabla about stuff like that.

[Haffner]

Maybe. Or maybe not. That is not the point here. The point is that since Sean doesn't understand German, he shouldn't blabla about stuff like that.

oops

[uffeviking]

Traveling to Germany this summer? I read about just the place for all devoted Wagnerians to visit. A group of Wagnerians gathered around the conductor Wilhelm Keitel and decided to present this September the Ring des Nibelungen on four consecutive days on a branch of the Rhein near Speyer in a venue built for 2000 visitors. The building is designed by architect Matteo Thun and constructed out of wood and canvass. Singers have not been chosen yet, the organisers have to sell enough tickets first; € 3000 to € 15000 per packet. If the dream becomes reality then Wagner's stage directions will be followed to the letter and at the end of Götterdämmerung the building will be set afire. The next evening Bruckner's Symphony No. 9 will be performed at the ruins. 

[marvinbrown]

Traveling to Germany this summer? I read about just the place for all devoted Wagnerians to visit. A group of Wagnerians gathered around the conductor Wilhelm Keitel and decided to present this September the Ring des Nibelungen on four consecutive days on a branch of the Rhein near Speyer in a venue built for 2000 visitors. The building is designed by architect Matteo Thun and constructed out of wood and canvass. Singers have not been chosen yet, the organisers have to sell enough tickets first; € 3000 to € 15000 per packet. If the dream becomes reality then Wagner's stage directions will be followed to the letter and at the end of Götterdämmerung the building will be set afire. The next evening Bruckner's Symphony No. 9 will be performed at the ruins. 

  Sign me up Lis please please sign me up  0:)!!

  marvin

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Traveling to Germany this summer? I read about just the place for all devoted Wagnerians to visit. A group of Wagnerians gathered around the conductor Wilhelm Keitel and decided to present this September the Ring des Nibelungen on four consecutive days on a branch of the Rhein near Speyer in a venue built for 2000 visitors. The building is designed by architect Matteo Thun and constructed out of wood and canvass. Singers have not been chosen yet, the organisers have to sell enough tickets first; € 3000 to € 15000 per packet. If the dream becomes reality then Wagner's stage directions will be followed to the letter and at the end of Götterdämmerung the building will be set afire. The next evening Bruckner's Symphony No. 9 will be performed at the ruins. 

Well, they are realising one of Wagner's earliest ideas - performing the 'Ring' on four consecutive days in a purpose-built theater, which is broken down afterwards... This was the germ of what we now know as the 'Bayreuther Festspiele'.

[marvinbrown]

Well, they are realising one of Wagner's earliest ideas - performing the 'Ring' on four consecutive days in a purpose-built theater, which is broken down afterwards... This was the germ of what we now know as the 'Bayreuther Festspiele'.

  Yes but they are also torching the place.....what better way to see Loge, the Fire God do his job than to see the whole building set afire!  I think Wagner just turned in his grave (with delight) at the thought of that!!

  marvin

[Sergeant Rock]

Traveling to Germany this summer? I read about just the place for all devoted Wagnerians to visit. A group of Wagnerians gathered around the conductor Wilhelm Keitel and decided to present this September the Ring des Nibelungen on four consecutive days on a branch of the Rhein near Speyer in a venue built for 2000 visitors. The building is designed by architect Matteo Thun and constructed out of wood and canvass. Singers have not been chosen yet, the organisers have to sell enough tickets first; € 3000 to € 15000 per packet. If the dream becomes reality then Wagner's stage directions will be followed to the letter and at the end of Götterdämmerung the building will be set afire. The next evening Bruckner's Symphony No. 9 will be performed at the ruins. 

Speyer is thirty minutes south of where I live. I had a momentary burst of elation...until I saw the price of the tickets.   Damn.... I can't even afford the cheap seats. €3000 = $4370

Sarge

[uffeviking]

To truly follow all of Wagner's instructions though, more has to be done and I am holding off with my ticket purchase until I know if the organisers will have Brünnhilde ride Grane into the flames and also divert part of the Rhein to flood the scene!

Marvin, have you run the ticket price through the currency conversion table? It's from $4,347.00 to $21,734.00! 

[uffeviking]

My apology, Sarge, I typed my post before your's popped up on my computer! 

I wonder if the ticket price includes being invited to the wedding meal at the Gibich's Great Hall, roasted boar and buckets of strong drink! 

[marvinbrown]

To truly follow all of Wagner's instructions though, more has to be done and I am holding off with my ticket purchase until I know if the organisers will have Brünnhilde ride Grane into the flames and also divert part of the Rhein to flood the scene!

Marvin, have you run the ticket price through the currency conversion table? It's from $4,347.00 to $21,734.00! 

      I missed that part, well with all the excitement and all I didn't think twice about the price.  I am however willing to settle for seats at the concession stands if there are any!!

  marvin

[Haffner]

      I missed that part, well with all the excitement and all I didn't think twice about the price.  I am however willing to settle for seats at the concession stands if there are any!!

  marvin

I'm with you, Marvin!

[knight66]

It sounds insane. A King Ludwig moment. Might be worth it just to see "Brunhilde admiring Siegfried's ring". One of the stage directions.

Mike

[knight66]

Jessye Norman on a new YouTube video singing The Immolation Scene under Masur. Can anyone date this video? Her voice initially seems less secure than I am accustomed to hearing it, even some little slips in intonation. Certainly in part two, the upper notes are not secure. Nevertheless, well worth hearing. Masur speeds through the main orchestral postlude, it looses quite a bit, a run-through.

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swTTWurVnKc

Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48ShCmL7Ew0&feature=related


Mike

[Lobby]

Mike,

I think the recording dates from 1995 and was the gala opening concert of the NYPO's 153rd season.

As Jessye Norman had already started to move more towards the mezzo repertoire by the early 1990s, its perhaps not surprising that her top notes are not secure.

Jon

[knight66]

Jon, Thanks for that. She looks slimmer than when I used to see her in concert, so I know it must be from her more recent appearances. I was wondering what she was up to these days....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessye_Norman#Later_career_.281990-present.29

Mike

[Haffner]

Mike,

I think the recording dates from 1995 and was the gala opening concert of the NYPO's 153rd season.

As Jessye Norman had already started to move more towards the mezzo repertoire by the early 1990s, its perhaps not surprising that her top notes are not secure.

Jon

She's an amazing Wagner singer, one of my favorites! She was a fantastic Sieglinde in Levine's Met.