Exercise in Restraint: What Religion Do You Believe In?

[Haffner]

Yes, in fact most I am aware of DO.  This is not to equate Christianity with racism or anything like that of course. (sadly, I am all too well-acquianted with white supremecist movements & know some of the Aryan nation type weirdos personally in my days in northeast Lousyana)

About that Travel Channel show: That's part of the whole Christian Identity movement.  Basically the jist is that "white people" are the "true Israelites" & America is the promised land in the Bible.  The Jews are "imposters" and there's a lot of talk about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc etc ad nauseum.  The holocaust never happened, etc.  They love David Irving's crap.  They make the John Birch Society look tame.  Crazy people. 

Information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_identity

Their certainly strange. David Irving's books aren't all crap (though obviously alot of them are). I'm part Jewish, and yet I learned a bit from several of his books. But I try to do that with all books.

[Ephemerid]

Their certainly strange. David Irving's books aren't all crap (though obviously alot of them are). I'm part Jewish, and yet I learned a bit from several of his books. But I try to do that with all books.

I have no patience for people posing as historians to pass off lies. 

[paulb]

Yes, in fact most I am aware of DO.  This is not to equate Christianity with racism or anything like that of course. (sadly, I am all too well-acquianted with white supremecist movements & know some of the Aryan nation type weirdos personally in my days in northeast Lousyana)

About that Travel Channel show: That's part of the whole Christian Identity movement.  Basically the jist is that "white people" are the "true Israelites" & America is the promised land in the Bible.  The Jews are "imposters" and there's a lot of talk about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc etc ad nauseum.  The holocaust never happened, etc.  They love David Irving's crap.  They make the John Birch Society look tame.  Crazy people. 

Information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_identity

Yes that was some of the things the brit journalist (undercover, til the end when he revelaed his purpose) guy was asking the KKK.
Dangerous minds these KKK.
I was not aware north louisiana had its share of white supremacists, but now that i recall how often acts of hate by whites on balcks in the past few yrs near Shreveport, its believeable.
And of course the latest Jena hate thing with the nooses froma  oak tree.
Idaho and that area is big time hate , anti-everything-except-white movements.
And  to think these guys live, breathe, and havea   community! right here in america 2008.
Strange times we live in.

back to topic, Jesus, what did he actually man to say in his message. Obviously the christians have not got the low-down, as there are now over

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a120.htm

well according to this catholic author, 30K +.
His thesis may have some validity, if you consider that each non-denominational church counts as one sect.
Whether its 3000 or 30K , the point being the protestant division of christianity is splintered into a  thousand parts, each holding doctrines and dogmas slightly different from the others.
Numbers of youths attending catholic church service is drastically falling. So they don't seem to have the answers people are looking for either.
Maybe we should get Jesus back here and ask him what he really means to say, and clear up these divisions once and for all.

[Haffner]

I have no patience for people posing as historians to pass off lies. 

It's really great to know that we have an objective historian on the board.

[karlhenning]

I thought he was expressing indignation at Barry Miles:

[Ephemerid]

It's really great to know that we have an objective historian on the board.

Asking for a historian to provide proper documentation in their books isn't too much to ask for.  Irving is notorious for not doing that.  After all, how else can he support his contention that the holocaust never happened?  The man's a fraud, masking his anti-semitism in what appears to be academic research.  

[Haffner]

Asking for a historian to provide proper documentation in their books isn't too much to ask for.  Irving is notorious for not doing that.  After all, how else can he support his contention that the holocaust never happened?  The man's a fraud, masking his anti-semitism in what appears to be academic research.  

Cool. Sounds like you've done some in depth research on the topic.

[Ephemerid]

Cool. Sounds like you've done some in depth research on the topic.

Actually, I have read a couple of his books, and various articles by him a long time ago when I was getting involved with "Christian Identity" along with other holocaust-denial literature.  Thankfully, I realised how screwed up these people were and got out before I got much more involved. 

So I'm familiar enough with David Irving & the like to know that its just anti-semitism dressed up in a different garb.  Its not exactly a big secret, you know.  How much more "research" do I need to say, yes, Irving is dead wrong, the holocaust did happen & those who survived aren't lying? 

[Haffner]

So I'm familiar enough with David Irving & the like to know that its just anti-semitism dressed up in a different garb.  Its not exactly a big secret, you know.  How much more "research" do I need to say, yes, Irving is dead wrong, the holocaust did happen & those who survived aren't lying? 

So I take it that all of David Irving's books basically promote that idea?

[Ephemerid]

So I take it that all of David Irving's books basically promote that idea?

Irving's scholarship is, from what I understand, just as shoddy as his books on the holocaust, the same shaky methodology and sources (or mis-use of sources).  Many other historians find him a very unreliable historian because of that.  Oh, well, too bad for Mr. Irving.

[Haffner]

  Oh, well, too bad for Mr. Irving.

Sounds bad. Thanks for letting me know your take on this very controversial author.

[Brian]

From what I've read (and I studied the "Jesus Never Existed" idea extensively back in 2002), few scholars lend credibility to the "Jesus Never Existed" subject. Even the "Jesus was just an amalgation of several, revolutionary Judaists" subject is losing ground. Even Nietzsche's paranoid idea that Paul invented the whole thing to bring low the Roman Empire smacks of pure horse manure...the "secret" would have been out by now.

Based upon my own (at the time vehemently atheistic) research; and letting you folks know up front that I'm fully aware of my being a nobody guitar teacher in nowhere New England, I came to the conclusion that we overall have much more historical evidence of Christ's existence than we do of several dozen other historical characters whom are taught just as much (probably more these days) in schools.

In fact, overall it can be stated that Christ was the massively influential historical figure in the history of the world (or at least the last three millenium). Most people whom look for a mythological Jesus are those whom look for "secrets"/"hidden knowledge"...a phase that prety much everyone falls victim to at one time or another.

As to whom Jesus was, now there's a debate, huh?

I don't know if the content of my posts gave the opposite impression, but I agree with you almost absolutely. The place where we probably differ is on that last question of yours! 

As far as I know David Irving did some legitimate history before going cuckoo, yes?

[knight66]

Haffner, Here is a good item about Irvine.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4449948.stm

Mike

[Haffner]

Haffner, Here is a good item about Irvine.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4449948.stm

Mike

Great article, and you probably guessed that I wouldn't be surprised. Irving actually seemed like a legitimate historian very early in his career. I think the draw of sensationalism perverted his entire methodology.

[Philoctetes]

Gravedug'd

My religion is Gaea.

[Josquin des Prez]

Asking for a historian to provide proper documentation in their books isn't too much to ask for.

I was under the impression that his thesis was based on the lack of proper documentation in the first place. He says the gassing never happened because there is no proof, and you are asking him to prove it. I don't think it works that way. It is proponents of the holocaust who have to prove him wrong, not the other way around. One wonders why this wasn't simply done, rather then go to the inane extend of jailing him and making him persona non grata in ten different countries. Shouldn't truth see to itself? Why all the bullying tactics?

[Brian]

He says the gassing never happened because there is no proof, and you are asking him to prove it. I don't think it works that way.

"A proof is a proof. What kind of proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, that's because it's proven."

[MishaK]

You had to revive this sorry thread just to share that (admittedly funny) clip? 

[Brian]

You had to revive this sorry thread just to share that (admittedly funny) clip? 

Philo didn't share a clip, I did.  0:)

[Gurn Blanston]

We seem to be on a mining expedition here lately. Now everyone can watch the clip, but we won't go ahead and repeat the endless crap that we first put forth in 2008. I am only a little amused by people who find these threads resurfaced and start arguments with people who haven't been members here in 3 years...