Europe at War

[Madiel]

By sheer coincidence, ABC Australia has just published this helpful primer on global food security and its implications. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-28/russia-ukraine-food-shortage-fertiliser-climate-change/100575126

[SimonNZ]

If I were the moderator I'd cut ANY personal comments BTW.

In practice this gets enforced with the most narrow and literal definition of insult. Where someone going years on end with trollish behavior and continually asked by many members to change their behavior is fine for not crossing the bold line into actual insult, but someone finally getting frustrated and calling them a troll is reprimanded for insult. Its part of what made me leave that other place for good.

Personally I'm far, far more offended and insulted an take personally someone knowingly posting with, say, dripping sarcasm and snide asides or deliberately frustrating non-replies when they've been repeatedly asked to stop than I am by being called an idiot in the heat of one exchange.

[Madiel]

Arguments don't make posts. People make posts.

[milk]

In practice this gets enforced with the most narrow and literal definition of insult. Where someone going years on end with trollish behavior and continually asked by many members to change their behavior is fine for not crossing the bold line into actual insult, but someone finally getting frustrated and calling them a troll is reprimanded for insult. Its part of what made me leave that other place for good.

Personally I'm far, far more offended and insulted an take personally someone knowingly posting with, say, dripping sarcasm and snide asides or deliberately frustrating non-replies when they've been repeatedly asked to stop than I am by being called an idiot in the heat of one exchange.

Actually, I'm not really offended by anyone. It's just that if there has to be a moderator and they feel there has to be a point when things have to be shut down...
But I don't really mind either way.

[krummholz]

This is wishful thinking.

Maybe, maybe not...

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4167193

[milk]

Maybe, maybe not...

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4167193

Interesting.

[milk]

Seriously? I talk about global supply chains and you talk about the spread of ideas?

Ugh indeed.

Maybe your petrol/gasoline prices didn't spike when this war started? Despite my petrol not coming from Ukraine or Russia, mine did.

Or maybe you vaguely noticed that a virus outbreak in China affected manufacturing the world over?

I could have sworn I'd heard about inflationary spikes all over the world, but nope, apparently it's stupid to think that the USA is economically linked to events elsewhere.

I said nothing, by the way, about the appropriate American response, despite you talking about neocons. What I challenged was the claim that American security simply wasn't affected.

I see. So you're saying that Todd believes the U.S. is completely unaffected by events in the world. He thinks the U.S. isn't affected if Russia goes to war with the Ukraine (or even if there's a global pandemic). You're saying you understand global supply chains whereas Todd doesn't seem to understand that they even exist or matter, that Todd is arguing that there's no effect on the U.S. when other major powers act in what we might see as belligerent ways. You're saying that Todd doesn't see the U.S. as impacted by world events in any important ways and that his "non-interventionist" arguments are so obviously wrong that a detailed rebuttal is just redundant. His views are patently absurd. In your view, the argument, if one can even call it that, that Todd is making, is that the U.S. doesn't benefit by funding a proxy war to counter Russia's aggression. You're saying that this is just silly because it's obvious to anyone with eyes in their head that Russia's move is a threat to the world and the U.S. clearly has reasons to fund the war. Maybe you're also suggesting that it's absurd to argue that fighting over Taiwan is a bad idea? 
Your claim here is that Todd simply doesn't have a serious argument and doesn't understand the way the world works.
I hope I've represented what you're saying correctly.

[Karl Henning]

Further Orban-related developments: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-27/hungary-prime-minister-viktor-orban-advisor-resigns-over-speech/101275582

""We are willing to mix with one another, but we do not want to become peoples of mixed race," Mr Orbán told the crowd, adding that mixing between Europeans was acceptable."

Jesus wept.

[LKB]

""We are willing to mix with one another, but we do not want to become peoples of mixed race," Mr Orbán told the crowd, adding that mixing between Europeans was acceptable."

Jesus wept.

Proof that political Neanderthals are not exclusive to the UK or US.

[Madiel]

I see. So you're saying that Todd believes the U.S. is completely unaffected by events in the world. He thinks the U.S. isn't affected if Russia goes to war with the Ukraine (or even if there's a global pandemic). You're saying you understand global supply chains whereas Todd doesn't seem to understand that they even exist or matter, that Todd is arguing that there's no effect on the U.S. when other major powers act in what we might see as belligerent ways. You're saying that Todd doesn't see the U.S. as impacted by world events in any important ways and that his "non-interventionist" arguments are so obviously wrong that a detailed rebuttal is just redundant. His views are patently absurd. In your view, the argument, if one can even call it that, that Todd is making, is that the U.S. doesn't benefit by funding a proxy war to counter Russia's aggression. You're saying that this is just silly because it's obvious to anyone with eyes in their head that Russia's move is a threat to the world and the U.S. clearly has reasons to fund the war. Maybe you're also suggesting that it's absurd to argue that fighting over Taiwan is a bad idea? 
Your claim here is that Todd simply doesn't have a serious argument and doesn't understand the way the world works.
I hope I've represented what you're saying correctly.

Mostly. Again, I didn't say what the correct American response was, but the notion that America should be simply DISINTERESTED strikes me as absurd.

I make no comment on the Taiwan issue, because I don't know enough about the strategic and economic importance of Taiwan. Many of the concerns about China that I'm aware of relate to the wider region rather than Taiwan specifically.

This is not to say that I think the only relevant question is "does this place have importance for the wider world". But that is Todd's attitude: does this place have any importance for the USA. And by Todd's own approach, claiming that Ukraine is of no importance is a short-sighted claim that can only be made if you fail to look more than one step away. It's the equivalent of looking at the contents of your local supermarket without giving any thought to how the contents actually arrive there.

[Todd]

Maybe, maybe not...

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4167193

I already linked four similarly themed articles previously: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,31510.msg1461520.html#msg1461520

As with any politicized topic, one can find articles and analyses to suit one's preferences.

[Todd]

Your claim here is that Todd simply doesn't have a serious argument and doesn't understand the way the world works.

This is an excellent forum to learn how the world works from recognized leaders in economics and politics.

[Madiel]

This is an excellent forum to learn how the world works from recognized leaders in economics and politics.

And this is hilarious. What are your qualifications for making your own assertions about how the world works?

Close the thread then. Because by your own sarcasm there is no point in continuing to pit your own lack of expertise against everyone else's lack of expertise.

Or you COULD understand that people bring what they've learned here. And that some of us bother to digest it more than is involved in posting links. Why, even YOU sometimes use your own words, non-expert that you are.

You don't get to make a comment about the lack of knowledge around here without looking in a mirror as you make it.

[Karl Henning]

The unexamined life, and all that.

[Karl Henning]

Ukraine could be turning the tide of war again as Russian advances stall

[milk]

The unexamined life, and all that.

I don't know. The more off-handedly dismissive people are, the more curious I am. I don't know if I agree with Todd but it's absurd to snicker and say his POV is the result of a lack of examination. Maybe I need to get my crackerjack box glasses. I'm reading his posts and they come with links to current articles, references to various well-known figures and schools of thought, and pretty fleshed-out arguments. It might be a minority view but not exactly fringe. Again, I'm not saying I agree. I'm just open-minded. I just don't get the snickering. I do see that Todd has built up a healthy amount of ill-will. I've been annoyed by him on occasion. I guess I just don't care AND it never hurts to re-examine and test one's beliefs. Sometimes I get the feeling people are afraid of that.

[Madiel]

I don't know. The more off-handedly dismissive people are, the more curious I am. I don't know if I agree with Todd but it's absurd to snicker and say his POV is the result of a lack of examination. Maybe I need to get my crackerjack box glasses. I'm reading his posts and they come with links to current articles, references to various well-known figures and schools of thought, and pretty fleshed-out arguments. It might be a minority view but not exactly fringe. Again, I'm not saying I agree. I'm just open-minded. I just don't get the snickering. I do see that Todd has built up a healthy amount of ill-will. I've been annoyed by him on occasion. I guess I just don't care AND it never hurts to re-examine and test one's beliefs. Sometimes I get the feeling people are afraid of that.

Do any of the links say the war in Ukraine is irrelevant?

Because from your responses to me, I'm genuinely not convinced that you understand the difference between "the US should not intervene" and "the US has no interest in events". They are 2 fundamentally different arguments.

[krummholz]

I already linked four similarly themed articles previously: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,31510.msg1461520.html#msg1461520

As with any politicized topic, one can find articles and analyses to suit one's preferences.

Although like most here, I'd like to see Putin's forces crushed and the man himself removed from power (and more), I didn't post that link to suit my own preferences, but to counter your statement that the implication that the Kremlin's position, economically and strategically, is weak is mere wishful thinking. While it may or may not prove to be correct in the end, the fact that that conclusion was reached by at least one carefully documented study shows that it is not mere wishful thinking.

[milk]

Do any of the links say the war in Ukraine is irrelevant?

Because from your responses to me, I'm genuinely not convinced that you understand the difference between "the US should not intervene" and "the US has no interest in events". They are 2 fundamentally different arguments.

I haven't put a lot of thought into your particular responses to Todd. I just thought the "your the kind of person" remark stood out. But carry on. Again, I don't care and I doubt anyone does. I for one am sure the U.S. has some interest in the events in the Ukraine. I'm also very interested in East Asia where I also think there are important interests and I'm glad Biden is on the phone (or someone is I hope). I missed where Todd wrote that the U.S. is unaffected by events in the Ukraine but I haven't been studying this thread. I thought his argument was just that it makes little difference to U.S. interests if Russia gains territory or influence there. I still hope it doesn't, BTW. If you feel motivated, post the bits of Todd that you think are egregiously erroneous, not as a response to any challenge to your knowledge or thought-processes but as a service to a fella who needs things spelled out plainly and repetitively. The doctor has upped my migraine meds and one side effect is possible density of thought. That and constipation.   

[Madiel]

I haven't put a lot of thought into your particular responses to Todd. I just thought the "your the kind of person" remark stood out. But carry on. Again, I don't care and I doubt anyone does. I for one am sure the U.S. has some interest in the events in the Ukraine. I'm also very interested in East Asia where I also think there are important interests and I'm glad Biden is on the phone (or someone is I hope). I missed where Todd wrote that the U.S. is unaffected by events in the Ukraine but I haven't been studying this thread. I thought his argument was just that it makes little difference to U.S. interests if Russia gains territory or influence there. I still hope it doesn't, BTW. If you feel motivated, post the bits of Todd that you think are egregiously erroneous, not as a response to any challenge to your knowledge or thought-processes but as a service to a fella who needs things spelled out plainly and repetitively. The doctor has upped my migraine meds and one side effect is possible density of thought. That and constipation.   

So hang on, you chose to spend all this time focusing on my comment, and you simply didn't bother to go back to the post I was responding to?

I mean, you figured out I was talking about Todd, yet you couldn't be arsed to read the sentence that Todd had written stating that the security of the USA was unaffected?

Wow. Thank you for wasting so much of my time. On something that you now say YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT. I shall feel very free to ignore you from now on.