Lilburn's Second- more garbage

[PerfectWagnerite]

there's dozens of these off beat composers  that have a quirky fanatical groupies that do their best to proselytize and draw in new members.
Over the yrs i;'ve tried a  few suggestions based on a  high *WOW* factor, but i came up empty handed, and short in the wallet.
Hey, at least i tried.

There are lots of composers that write music that sounds good or "cool" on the surface because of some creative orchestration or sound effects. But most of these music have no soul and no love. ANother one I can think of (and I know I am going to get flamed for this) is Rautavaara. His music is very atmospheric, mysterious, sounds like from another world. But it just does not reflect any humanity or carry any weight. But for a lot of people they treat him like he is the second coming of Sibelius.

Anyway Simpson is actually a very good music critic and scholar, but as a composer he not only wrote one symphony 10 times, he wrote one movement 40 times.

[greg]

ANother one I can think of (and I know I am going to get flamed for this) is Rautavaara. His music is very atmospheric, mysterious, sounds like from another world. But it just does not reflect any humanity or carry any weight. But for a lot of people they treat him like he is the second coming of Sibelius.

I see exactly what you mean here. But as long as you just thinking, "atmospheric, mysterious" WITHOUT expecting something w/ strong melodies, it's a very fun ride! 

[paulb]

There are lots of composers that write music that sounds good or "cool" on the surface because of some creative orchestration or sound effects. But most of these music have no soul and no love. ANother one I can think of (and I know I am going to get flamed for this) is Rautavaara. His music is very atmospheric, mysterious, sounds like from another world. But it just does not reflect any humanity or carry any weight. But for a lot of people they treat him like he is the second coming of Sibelius.

Anyway Simpson is actually a very good music critic and scholar, but as a composer he not only wrote one symphony 10 times, he wrote one movement 40 times.

Perfectwagnerite
You my friend have made some of the best posts I've seen in my 8 yrs posting on 5 CM forums.
I'm serious. I hope to continue reading such fine matured opinions from you in the future.
I take it you are under the age of 30? You are on a  very good path to make great discoveries in music. I can read between lines of posters and see who will find the really great music and those who will *flounder about* never comming to the depths of the thing.
I've not been following the Wager topics, I take it you are a  big fan of Wagner.
I stayed away from Wagner for decades for various reasons. But lately I've now  become a  Wagnerite for life, as far as a  selection of his operas.

[springrite]

Vanessa, how did you come by such mastery of American vernacular?

I act as Vanessa's English language coach. When she asks me "how do you best express this?", I give her my suggestions.

[greg]

I act as Vanessa's English language coach. When she asks me "how do you best express this?", I give her my suggestions.

lol, i hope you don't give her surprise pop quizzes.....

[Sergeant Rock]

there's dozens of these off beat composers  that have a quirky fanatical groupies that do their best to proselytize and draw in new members.

Yeah, like Pettersson, Schnittke and Carter. They have a groupie here too; one who proselytizes constantly about his pet composers. 

We need more like Sean who is willing to put forth a honest and fair opinion. And yourself.

Let me see if I understand this correctly, Paul: an honest opinion is an opinion that agrees with your beliefs about classical music. A dishonest opinion is one that doesn't agree with you? Everyone who disagrees with you is dishonest? Interesting.

Sarge

[johnQpublic]

Sarge, that

Yeah, like Pettersson, Schnittke and Carter. They have a groupie here too; one who proselytizes constantly about his pet composers. 

Let me see if I understand this correctly, Paul: an honest opinion is an opinion that agrees with your beliefs about classical music. A dishonest opinion is one that doesn't agree with you? Everyone who disagrees with you is dishonest? Interesting.

Sarge, that was the POST OF THE YEAR!!!

Ya nailed it!!!

[karlhenning]

. . . Vaughan Williams and Sibelius.  Neither composer is complex

Yet another howler from Paul.  Thanks for the laugh!

[karlhenning]

there's dozens of these off beat composers  that have a quirky fanatical groupies that do their best to proselytize and draw in new members.

Yeah, like Pettersson, Schnittke and Carter. They have a groupie here too; one who proselytizes constantly about his pet composers. 

I heartily join in applauding you for this surgical riposte, Sarge! 

[longears]

now why in the world would you wanna give Lilburn another lsiten when you just read what Sean wrote.
Whats in it for him to lie anout it?
But go ahead, and then give us your opinion.

Not that he's lying, just that he's an idiot.  I discussed the Lilburn symphonies with Benji on the old forum.  Hadn't heard them for awhile, but didn't recall any of them being so slavishly imitative as Sean described.  I did listen again to the second.  It's clearly derivative, but hardly a pastiche of "absolute mindless plagiarism...Endless near quotes from Sibelius 2, 4, 5 & 7, at least, plus a totally blatant Pelleas Before the palace gate ending, smudged over with stretches of VW folksy syrup."  (Pelleas before the Palace Gate ending?  Hardly.)

The problem is that Lilburn didn't really have his own voice.  The piece strikes me as a student exercise, with different movements written in different styles.  The scherzo could have come right out of one of Copland's ballets!  In short, it's forgettable, and dismissable, but mostly because it's just not that good.  Had it been as plagiaristic as Sean claims, it might have been better--like Howard Shore's movie music!

[Sean]

Pelleas before the Palace Gate ending?  Hardly

That's exactly what it is.

[Gurn Blanston]

now why in the world would you wanna give Lilburn another lsiten when you just read what Sean wrote.
Whats in it for him to lie anout it?
But go ahead, and then give us your opinion.

So, if I understand you correctly (and I don't, always), you are saying that if you read someone else's opinion that certain music is derivative, or otherwise sucks, then you are a fool to actually listen to it yourself and make your own judgment? That's an interesting theory.    



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Now playing:
Andras Schiff (Beethoven's own Broadwood) - Bia 788 Op 126 Bagatelles (6) for Fortepiano #3 in Eb - Andante

[BachQ]

now why in the world would you wanna give Lilburn another lsiten when you just read what Sean wrote.
Whats in it for him to lie anout it?
But go ahead, and then give us your opinion.

So, if I understand you correctly (and I don't, always), you are saying that if you read someone else's opinion that certain music is derivative, or otherwise sucks, then you are a fool to actually listen to it yourself and make your own judgment? That's an interesting theory.    

No.  Paulb is trying to explain that Sean is the ultimate objective source of musical aesthetics, and if Sean says that a composition sucks, then there's no point in listening to it .........

[BachQ]

But lately I've now  become a  Wagnerite for life, as far as a  selection of his operas.

How could a person be a "Wagnerite for life" in a context other than Wagner's operas?

[Gurn Blanston]

No.  Paulb is trying to explain that Sean is the ultimate objective source of musical aesthetics, and if Sean says that a composition sucks, then there's no point in listening to it .........

Oh, thanks for the explanation. I was at a loss, but now I'm found....   (I didn't know that about Sean, actually).



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Now playing:
Op 61 Violin Concerto in D arr. for Clarinet - Russian National Orchestra / Pletnev    Collins - Op 61 Clarinet (Violin) Concerto in D 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo

[BachQ]

Oh, thanks for the explanation. I was at a loss, but now I'm found....   (I didn't know that about Sean, actually).

It's actually very handy to know ........ and by heeding Sean's advice, one can save a great deal of time by avoiding music which Sean finds unappealing.

Sean is the E.F. Hutton of music: When Sean talks, people listen.

[Gurn Blanston]

It's actually very handy to know ........ and by heeding Sean's advice, one can save a great deal of time by avoiding music which Sean finds unappealing.

Sean is the E.F. Hutton of music: When Sean talks, people listen.

Oh, so the making fun of him stuff is just a sort of defensive joke then? Man, am I ever slow on the uptake. I thought all those people were serious!



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Now playing:
Op 61 Violin Concerto in D arr. for Clarinet - Russian National Orchestra / Pletnev    Collins - Op 61 Clarinet (Violin) Concerto in D 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo

[karlhenning]

Sure I don't.

[Sergeant Rock]

How could a person be a "Wagnerite for life" in a context other than Wagner's operas?

He's saying that only a few Wagner operas are great and worth listening to. Obviously Paul is a heretic and no true Wagnerite. A reformed Wagnerite at best, and a pitiful excuse for a man. If he tried to hang with us true Wagnerites (who worship every single note the devine man put to paper), we'd stone his sorry fake-Wagnerite ass.

Sarge

[BachQ]

He's saying that only a few Wagner operas are great and worth listening to. Obviously Paul is a heretic and no true Wagnerite. A reformed Wagnerite at best, and a pitiful excuse for a man. If he tried to hang with us true Wagnerites (who worship every single note the devine man put to paper), we'd stone his sorry fake-Wagnerite ass.

Sarge

Imagine that.  We've uncovered an internal inconsistency in one of Paubl's posts .......