Europe at War

[drogulus]

     The US is very involved in parts of the world where it has vital interests. Unlike most countries, this is everywhere. With great power comes great.....suzereignity?

     Here's how the US can abdicate from its role. It's easy, even a crankitarian can understand it. All the US has to do is become weak even faster than Russia and China. I suggest scrapping the aircraft carriers, putting shrinksters in permanent charge of the economy and canceling military and economic agreements with our non-weakling trading partners. There, it's done.

     I don't see any advantage for me in such a drastic course change. What would motivate it? What would the consequences be for the real value of my holdings?

[drogulus]

     Belgorod go boom. I surmise that the Ukes don't have the forces for a direct counterattack on the Russian lines in the south and east. Instead they are hollowing out the Russian positions by destroying everything behind the Russian positions that they can reach. This means that when the Ukes do attack, the Russians will have no choice but to retreat. Since bridges have been heavily damaged, the Russians will have to abandon their vehicles and escape on foot, or they'll have to surrender.

     If they manage to reach Crimea they might be able to get back to Russia, if the Russians permit their return, or if the last bridge hasn't been destroyed. I hope the Ukes don't destroy the Kerch bridge. It's a really great bridge and would be quite useful to the Greater Ukraine that might emerge from this war.

     

[Que]

"Annual maintenance".....

Gas supplies to Europe via Nord Stream 1 to be halted for 3 days, Russian state energy company says
From CNN's Maija Ehlinger

Natural gas supplies to Europe through Russia's Nord Stream 1 pipeline will be suspended from Aug. 31 through Sept. 2, according to a statement on Friday from the Russian state energy giant Gazprom. 

Friday's announcement comes after the Nord Stream 1 pipeline was shut down for 10 days in late July for "annual maintenance." 

The crucial pipeline had already been running at less than 40% capacity, prompting concerns that Russia is deliberately choking supplies of gas to Europe in an energy stand-off following the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

[Todd]

"Annual maintenance".....

Why did so many European countries willingly put themselves in a position to be dependent on Russian resources? 

[BasilValentine]

Why did so many European countries willingly put themselves in a position to be dependent on Russian resources?

Yes, it's amazing how many gullible people can trust a criminal sociopath with the future welfare of their country and then act surprised when they try to choke off your resources or execute a coup or whatnot. One born every minute I guess.

[drogulus]

Yes, it's amazing how many gullible people can trust a criminal sociopath with the future welfare of their country and then act surprised when they try to choke off your resources or execute a coup or whatnot. One born every minute I guess.

     They didn't listen to the Yankee Bully that forces them to obey. It's a puzzlement.

[Jo498]

Woa, woa, woa! That's quite the claim, guys --- I'm flabbergasted nobody noticed it!

Please, care to elaborate on this, Jo? What is it that makes Scholz and his team the most despicable German government since Hitler?

Admittedly, Merkel was almost as bad, certainly since 2011 (with a completely idiotic 180° degree turn because a tsunami in Japan suddenly made German nuclear power unsafe, and this from a "physicist", actually one of the most disgusting opportunists ever). They don't care for their people. (Kohl was a fat pig and also a bit corrupt, but he cared for his people and country and would not openly sacrifice them for the benefit of globalist corporations or foreign wars etc.) And they are utterly corrupt and dishonest. Scholz should never have become a candidate in the first place because he clearly was involved in letting a Hamburg private bank get away with tax fraud (when he was a local politican there a few years ago).

But in the context of this thread, it is IMO high treason to sacrifice the well-being of the people they govern for "supporting Ukraine". Even apart from the fact that the "sanctions" are virtually useless. Even if they worked, it would not be right. (But as they don't, it's a crime acting like that.) Whatever support one might give (and this is another debatable question) one cannot risk the provision with energy and resources of the own people because some other countries are at war. You cannot force your own people into sharply declining living standards for the dubious benefit of supporting a war party.

And they (i.e. the three governments before led by Merkel but usually supported by the Scholz party) have done this with the banksters in 2008-09, with the migrants in/since 2015, all the time with "EUrope" and all the time with "climate/environment" (again often with lots of fraud, overall useless measures, people benefitting from subsidies etc.). And don't get me started on the pharmaceutical coup of the millenium that made The Third Man Harry Lime look like a choirboy, I know most people in this forum fell for it, so I am not starting another such debate... Everything is more important (and has a higher "moral status") than caring for normal people of your populace. But the lies and measures around the Ukraine war might be, I think, the summit.

These guys now they are smearing everyone who supports values that were completely mainstream 30 years ago (like traditional families or having a positive attitude to one's culture or not caring for open borders and poorly controlled migration of undesirables) as "rightwing extremists" but have no trouble to support actual nazi sympathizers in Ukraine (and of course we have been giving millions in "developmental help" to other terrorists, like Hamas for decades). If you fly a German flag you are suspicious, but Rainbow or Ukraine flags are great. I am no fan of any flags but the hypocrisy and utter falseness of these people beggars belief.

So yes, I think there should be another Nuremberg trial (and a similar one for the "pharmacists"). But of course there will not be. They are losers but still on the winning side, so for now they write the history.

[Que]

Why did so many European countries willingly put themselves in a position to be dependent on Russian resources?

Convenience (cheap, less poluting than oil or coal, and a way to avoid nuclear energy) and the belief that close economic ties would pacify the relationship with Russia. "Wandel durch Handel", the Germans called it. But you already knew that... The odd ones out were the French, that have always considered their nuclear industry of strategic importance. A legacy of Charles de Gaulle.

[Todd]

Convenience (cheap, less poluting than oil or coal, and a way to avoid nuclear energy) and the belief that close economic ties would pacify the relationship with Russia. "Wandel durch Handel", the Germans called it. But you already knew that...

Indeed, just as I know any rational leader would retaliate against the continent imposing economic sanctions while leaving itself exposed.  Europeans apparently believe they can blackmail Russia without Russia blackmailing Europe in response. 

A correlated follow-up question is why have European leaders, despite their publicly bold commitment to renewable energy, materially slowed annual investment in renewable energy since 2011, and given Europe's actual track record, is there any reason to believe that the brave pronouncements of new steps guaranteeing independence from Russian energy will work? 

[Todd]

Finland, Sweden offer NATO an edge as rivalry warms up north

The AP offers a full-throated propaganda piece almost as laudatory as reports about western heroism that once came from embedded journalists.

To its credit, the article does emphasize one of the big prizes in the newest round of NATO expansion:

Likewise, Russia will become the only non-NATO member among countries with claims to Arctic territory, and the only non-NATO member of the Atlantic Council, an eight-member international forum created for Arctic issues.

[drogulus]

     Europe has grown tired of making mistakes that embolden Russia. It's time to make different mistakes. Sweden and Finland will help, as even when they were outside the club they were not presupposing Russia was not a mafia state. I agree it's odd that Germany would bamboozle itself like it did instead of taking sound advice from the Yankee Bully.

[drogulus]

     Putin Is LOVING This Big Mistake the West Is Making, Russian Dissidents Warn

Kremlin critics the world over are rallying against moves by some European countries to slap Russian citizens with travel bans, arguing that it will have the opposite effect of ramping up pressure on Vladimir Putin to put an end to the war in Ukraine.

A slew of prominent public figures in Russia, including celebrities, politicians and journalists with anti-war views, have insisted that such bans will backfire. "Do they believe that furious Russians left without EU visas would grab a pitchfork and attack the Kremlin? No, they will not," Russian rock musician Andrew Makarevich said earlier this week.

Many Russians are already suffering from the ban. When Russian media manager Igor Zabotin attempted to enter Romania from Ukraine on Tuesday, Ukrainian border guards stamped his passport with the words: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself," a slogan popularized by Ukrainian servicemen who said the phrase to a Russian military ship near Snake Island in the earlier days of the war.

     I agree this is a bad move. The correct posture is to lean in favor of welcoming Russians and make exceptions where necessary.

[Karl Henning]

Convenience (cheap, less poluting than oil or coal, and a way to avoid nuclear energy) and the belief that close economic ties would pacify the relationship with Russia. "Wandel durch Handel", the Germans called it. But you already knew that... The odd ones out were the French, that have always considered their nuclear industry of strategic importance. A legacy of Charles de Gaulle.

Well, all the West, I suppose, wanted to think that treating Russia as a friendly partner would serve to encourage the rise of a healthy democracy. We failed to reckon on the iron grip of the oligarchs in league with the slightly-dormant Communists. And now, a nescent thugocracy in the US ....

[drogulus]

     The Black Sea Fleet headquarters in Sevastopol was hit by a drone on the day the new commander arrived, which happened to be today, 8/20. Why the Russians consider Sevastopol a good place for a headquarters is beyond me. Shouldn't they skedaddle back to Novorossiysk while they are still not entirely dead? I'm just asking is all.

[drogulus]

Russia is not our friend right now; everyday Russians should experience the consequences.

     They do face the consequences. I wouldn't push too hard on the collective guilt thing, if only for practical reasons. Putin (and his apologists) would like all Russians to believe the West hates Russians and not the mafia state he runs. Let's not give him ammunition. It's dum. Besides, as far as I can tell Russian people are not hated.

[Todd]

But if they keep on being able to throw their hand in the air and exclaim, 'it's the boss, not me'. they'll never get the point.

What is the point?

[drogulus]

     When the mob enforcer visits the dry cleaner to collect his cut or else, we can agree that's a consequence of his unwillingness to fight back. Also he may face the further consequence of being barred from entering another country because he tolerates the actions of mobsters. Why didn't he have the guts to fight back?

[Todd]

Go away Todd. You know precisely what the point is, and if you don't you're as dumb as Ivan.

I do not know what the point is, which is why I asked.

[Todd]

Well, live in your ignorance then. Others don't seem quite so intellectually challenged on the matter.

A dispassionate response. 

[milk]

     They do face the consequences. I wouldn't push too hard on the collective guilt thing, if only for practical reasons. Putin (and his apologists) would like all Russians to believe the West hates Russians and not the mafia state he runs. Let's not give him ammunition. It's dum. Besides, as far as I can tell Russian people are not hated.

Yes. I don't see how creating more hostility with people, especially people who really don't have much of a say, accomplishes anything. I guess I could be persuaded in limited circumstances. Did anyone boycott the U.S. during the Vietnam war? If they did, I doubt it made a mark.