Tchaikovsky

[Mandryka]

Konstantin Igumnov plays Tchaikovsky : The Seasons Op.37b

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDXlAE6FT2I&ab_channel=MargoBeloved

(This has to be one of the best!)

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I listened to the suites 1+2 yesterday (the Dorati/New Philharmonia is the only recording I have) and in a way they are better and worse than I remembered. Better insofar as some of the movements are quite brilliant and both suites are entertaining enough. Worse insofar that they seem even more inhomogeneous and less "closed". The booklet refers to some letters/comments of the composer who apparently enjoyed being free from the "burden" of writing a serious symphony. Nevertheless he did write a fairly weighty "prelude & fugue" as first movement of the first suite and suites 1-3 are long enough (and of course demand a full orchestra) to have symphonic dimensions. So they are again in between being symphonic and not. That's why I guess they are rarely programmed as it will be as much (or more because less familiar) work as one of his symphonies to prepare and perform the suites.

I am on record for the slightly provocative claim that PIT was at his best in "lighter" (and theatralic, i.e. ballett and opera) music and that I tend to find some of the most ambitious, i.e. the last 3 symphonies with their "fate" connotations inconsistent or even pretentious. The quality of the suites again shows how good he was in colorful shortish pieces but for me they also tend to be a bit uninvolving. I think the best "lighter" works and they are actually so good that they transcend their lighter genres, are the String serenade and Souvenir de Florence. And, although I personally can take the piece only once in a while, the best fusion of "Western" and "Russian" as well as of virtuoso brilliance and symphonic weight, seems to me the violin concerto.

Interesting thoughts Jo.  I do like his Serenade for strings (actually love -- there's a lovely version with Britten conducting it which really tugs at my heart strings...and tear ducts), and, like you love his ballets.  I don't know his operas very well (other than E. O.).  I do, however, also enjoy his piano concertos (thought it's been some time since I've listened to them.  I should haul out my Van Cliburn CD--maybe this afternoon?).  I do also enjoy his symphonies--particularly fond of his Winter Dreams one.  Are there any of his symphonies that you like Jo?

PD

[Jo498]

I do like the first piano concerto, not only for "historical reasons" as it was one of the first pieces that got me into classical as a teenager. It's a bit inconsistent and the middle movement is brilliant but rather lightweight but it has tremendous sweep overall (and I love the finale). I respect the violin concerto (but frankly, don't like it very much), except for a bit of lengthiness (that's why it was often slightly cut in former times) but it might be his best fusion of symphonic, virtuoso and Russian elements.

I also like some "lighter" pieces, such as the famous Capriccio Italien or the charming 1st string quartet. Or the Seasons and other smallish piano pieces. I don't dislike the piano trio but I think it is way too long and suffers from a similar case of overambitious "tragic" expression as the late symphonies.

I actually also like the last three symphonies quite a bit, although I find especially the 4th uneven and I don't think they really succeed with their ambitious "fate" programs. They are potboilers and overplayed but very effective, especially in concert. I used to like the 1st symphony more, it gets a bit boring after the atmospheric first movement. I don't much care for the 2nd, it should have been named a suite, it's very light for a symphony. And the 3rd symphony and 2nd piano concerto are prime examples of what I wrote even further above, namely competently composed music that ends up being rather uninvolving for me.

[Florestan]

I actually also like the last three symphonies quite a bit, although I find especially the 4th uneven and I don't think they really succeed with their ambitious "fate" programs.

I think only the Fourth has an explicitly "fate" program but imho the most succesful "fate" symphony is the Fifth, which is my favourite of them all. Oddly as it may sound, I don't care much for the Sixthe except the Waltz and the March. That being said, Tchaikovsky is in my Top Five composers.

[Jo498]

The 5th was my favorite symphony full stop for a year or so when I was 15 and I agree that it has the best "closure" and is the most consistently brilliant. The main "logical/narrative gap" here is that the broad hymnic major mode transformation of the "fate" motif occurs already at the beginning of the finale and then Tchaikovsky whips up another storm that doesn't really make sense to me.
In the 4th my favorite might be the pizzicato scherzo that is an utterly brilliant piece on its own (but a bit at odds with the "fate" program). The achievement of the 6th is to overthrow the "traditional trajectory" but remain compelling in fairly standard movements and also leave the "program" vague but convey a sense of tragedy etc.

[Florestan]

The 5th was my favorite symphony full stop for a year or so when I was 15 and I agree that it has the best "closure" and is the most consistently brilliant. The main "logical/narrative gap" here is that the broad hymnic major mode transformation of the "fate" motif occurs already at the beginning of the finale and then Tchaikovsky whips up another storm that doesn't really make sense to me.

I think of it as a case of "it's not over till it's over". One might think oneself victorious and celebrate it, and out of a sudden bang! --- fate blows once again. Weak characters yield, strong characters rise to the challenge and emerge victorious once again, this time for good.

In the 4th my favorite might be the pizzicato scherzo that is an utterly brilliant piece on its own (but a bit at odds with the "fate" program).

Why?

The achievement of the 6th is to overthrow the "traditional trajectory" but remain compelling in fairly standard movements and also leave the "program" vague but convey a sense of tragedy etc.

All true --- but as a whole I prefer the Fifth, if only for its triiumphant, optimistic finale (not to mention that it has more memorable tunes than the Sixth).

Die Strahlen der Sonne vertreiben die Nacht etc.

[BasilValentine]

I think of it as a case of "it's not over till it's over". One might think oneself victorious and celebrate it, and out of a sudden bang! --- fate blows once again. Weak characters yield, strong characters rise to the challenge and emerge victorious once again, this time for good.

No, Jo's right. The narrative structure doesn't work. Opening the finale with a triumphal march on the motto theme is incoherent. The last time we heard it, other than the brief reminiscence at the end of the scherzo, was in the second movement, where it was furious and threatening. Then in the finale — ta-da! — suddenly it's inexplicably triumphant. Donald Tovey summed it up pretty well when he said something like the finale gives the Alice and Red Queen sensation of running faster and faster but getting nowhere. No real dramatic tension.

[Brian]

Interesting comments. I can definitely understand the structural critique, even if I hadn't thought of it before. It is similar to Brahms' First, where the dramatic arc ends in the coda of the first movement, and then the rest of the symphony repeats that resolution.

[Jo498]

I thought the Tovey charge against the fast section of the finale was more musical than narrative and I think it misses the character of these "slavic" dance/gallop-like passages. I tend to think it works musically but not so well narratively. Because the intrusion and reminiscence of the "fate" in the inner movements seem to demand some "working out" before the triumphant statement.
There is this great Gary Larson cartoon with a scientist having covered a blackboard with formulae and then there is a line like"2: And then a miracle happens" and some further derivations and conclusions. Another scientist from the audience asks: "Could you be more specific about step 2?"

[Florestan]

Brahms' First

Whenever I hear it my reaction to the first mvt is: okay, man, I got it, just cut the introductory crap and get to the main point already! ---he never gets to the main point --- I am bored of waiting for him to get to the main point --- I stop playing it before the first mvt is over.

Which is a poetic way of telling I don't care a fig for Brahms' First. 

[Florestan]

I tend to think it works musically but not so well narratively.

If it works musically it's good enough for me --- after all, we're talking music, not literature. 

[Jo498]

Interesting comments. I can definitely understand the structural critique, even if I hadn't thought of it before. It is similar to Brahms' First, where the dramatic arc ends in the coda of the first movement, and then the rest of the symphony repeats that resolution.

Or more precisely the two middle movements seem somehow unconcerned and then the finale has to conjure up the chromatic darkness from the very beginning again.
In the end, both work musically rather well, I think, that's probably why few people are bothered by it.

[relm1]

Did Tchaikovsky originally intend cannons at the end of 1812 Overture or was that a recent addition?  I don't see any indication of it in the score and recall it dated from Arthur Fiedler, 1974's Boston Pops Fourth of July Concert which was very popular and made it a tradition but not sure if it was originally from Tchaikovsky and resurrected by Fiedler? 

[Brian]

I can't answer definitely but the Wikipedia page has a whole amusing section on the impossibility of a HIP performance of the overture - since 1800s cannons took so long to reload, the score would require 16 different cannons to perform all the requested shots 

[relm1]

I can't answer definitely but the Wikipedia page has a whole amusing section on the impossibility of a HIP performance of the overture - since 1800s cannons took so long to reload, the score would require 16 different cannons to perform all the requested shots 

Maybe he was a megalomaniac, and 16 cannons wasn't a small ask.   

[Mandryka]

This is Pletven's first recording of The Seasons. I think it is much more sensitive and delicate than the one on Erato.

[Scion7]

Did Tchaikovsky originally intend cannons at the end of 1812 Overture.... 

According to Abraham's book, yes:

[Scion7]

Looking at pg. 72 of the score, is that not "Cannon" listed in the last bar?

[SurprisedByBeauty]

My next SymphonyCycleSurvey will be on Tchaikovsky, so I'm lapping up hints and suggestions and information on the topic. (Especially recording dates -- earliest & last -- will be helpful.)

Claudio   Abbado, Chicago
Maurice   Abravanel, Utah
VladimirAshkenazy,
Leonard   Bernstein, NYP
Semyon   Bychkov, CzP
Oleg   Caetani, Melbourne
Antal   Dorati, Detroit/MN
Bernard   Haitink, RCO
VladimirFedosseyev,
Valery   Gergiev, LSO/Mariinsky
Mariss   Jansons, Oslo
Neeme   Järvi, Gothenburg
Paavo   Järvi, Zurich Tonhalle
PhilippeJordan, Paris Opera
VladimirJurowski, LPO
Herbert Karajan, BPh
Daejin   Kim,
Dmitrij   Kitajenko, Gürzenich
Andrew   Litton, Bournemouth
Lorin   Maazel, VPO
Neville   Marriner, Stuttgart RSO?
Igor   Markevitch, LSO
Zubin   Mehta, LAP
RiccardoMuti, PhilH
Eugene   Ormandy mono, Philadelphia
Eugene   Ormandy stereo, Philadelphia
Vasily   Petrenko, R.Liverpool
Mikhail   Pletnev, RNO I
Mikhail   Pletnev, RNO II
   Rostropovich, Warner
   Rozhdestvensky
   Rozhdestvensky
Leonard   Slatkin, St.Louis
   Svetlanov, Melodiya
   Svetlanov, Exton studio
   Svetlanov, Exton live
Yuri   Temirkanov, Petersburgh
VladimírVálek, Prague RSO
Antonin   Wit, Polish RNO

[Albion]

For the ballets (containing some of the composer's greatest music) I would swear by Lanchbery and Previn. Thankfully, Warner released a set which has Previn's recordings of the full scores uncut (0190295974893) unlike in previous reissues. Likewise EMI (CFP) butchered Lanchbery's full recordings (other then "The Nutcracker") just to get them onto 2 CDs: just don't bother with those, try to find the Musical Heritage Society (US) issues which give you the whole kerjangers: "Swan Lake" is MHS532246L and "The Sleeping Beauty" is MHS532624Y. There is much more recent competition of course, but why bother? Slatkin is good, Jarvi is bizarre in places (the "Panorama" in "The Sleeping Beauty" is played like the finale of the bloody "William Tell" overture on steroids and there are some distinctly weird harp cadenzas), Pletnev is uninvolved and Gergiev is too mannered (as usual). Nope, Lanchbery and Previn rule the roost...