Europe at War

[Fëanor]

Paul Samuelson began questioning the purported benefits of "free trade" in 2004.  Do you consider him a preliterate nationalist?  Critics on the left and right question the EU's changes to ISDS mechanisms because they do not address the concerns of developing countries and focus instead on intra-bloc trade.  Do you consider those critics preliterate nationalists?  Critics on the left and right point out that so-called free trade agreements contain non-tariff trade barriers that exploit developing countries.  Do you consider them preliterate nationalists?  Critics and politicians in non-Western countries argue, convincingly and with facts on their side, that the US and Europe both have historically exploited them and continue to do so, including via structural mechanisms and limitations contained within international organizations.  Many of these same people also point out that some conditions imposed in trade and other agreements contain political clauses regarding certain preferred Western concepts - eg, women's rights - that are not at all universal, never have been, and never will be.  Do you consider such people preliterate nationalists?

I don't know if you coined the phrase "opiate of the preliterate", or if someone else did, but it means nothing.  The nation state remains the primary organizing entity of large-scale political organization and administration around the world, and it serves as the basis of the Westphalian system, which still governs international relations.  It is entirely rational for national level politicians to focus on the well-being of the citizens and/or residents of their countries, even if those policies may result in some type of harm, material or immaterial, to other countries.  International relations is used to ameliorate imbalances and harms. 

Your views, based on what you write, are Eurocentric.  That is very common among WEIRD people - ie, people from Western, educated, industrialized, rich and democratic countries.  I did not coin that phrase.

I meant, of course, "proletariat" -- definitely not preliterate.  Sorry, didn't notice my mistake for a while.  (Spell checkers are only just so helpful.)

Well, Todd, so you've clarified that your definition of "Eurocentric" isn't just Europe but Western Civilization in general.  I don't know your own, particular provenance but it's clear you have a deep and irrational hatred of Western nations and the USA in particular.

I'm not going to rush to justify free trade which has it's problems, but those problems aren't simply solved by tariffs or trade restrictions but by progressive domestic policies.

I'm not going to rush to justify Western Civilization or the USA either, but their negative effect, (such as it is), on the rest of the world is mostly unfettered capitalism which is only one aspect.

The Western innovations I do believe without equivocation are democracy and rule-of-law.  This concludes our discourse.

[Todd]

I meant, of course, "proletariat" -- definitely not preliterate.  Sorry, didn't notice my mistake for a while.  (Spell checkers are only just so helpful.)

I suggest writing, pausing, rereading, then posting.  Takes about five minutes.

but it's clear you have a deep and irrational hatred of Western nations and the USA in particular.

Incorrect. 

I'm not going to rush to justify free trade which has it's problems, but those problems aren't simply solved by tariffs or trade restrictions but by progressive domestic policies.

Whatever you may think "progressive domestic policies" can do to alleviate domestic issues arising from trade, they do nothing to change the purposely and structurally exploitative nature of trade agreements and the associated international enforcement mechanisms.  So-called free trade agreements, or the more righteous sounding fair trade agreements, always favor the largest signatories to such agreements the most.  By design.  I suggest reading works and op-eds written by non-western political leaders and academics. 

I'm not going to rush to justify Western Civilization or the USA either, but their negative effect, (such as it is), on the rest of the world is mostly unfettered capitalism which is only one aspect.

I suggest that the history of and follow-on effects from colonialism, genocide, the international slave trade, wars of aggression, the establishment of and military defense of rapacious extractive industries pursuing mercantilist policies, attempting to and occasionally succeeding at purposely eradicating cultures, and establishing new country boundaries with no heed paid to regional cultural history or with an eye to causing instability have all led to far more measurable harm than so-called "unfettered capitalism".  Whatever that is.

The Western innovations I do believe without equivocation are democracy and rule-of-law.

They are wonderful institutions.  For the West.  They should not be imposed upon the rest of the world.  That is imperialism fueled by cultural chauvinism and more than occasionally outright racism.  It is really rather disgraceful.

This concludes our discourse.

GMG last wordism always charms.

[JBS]

Whatever you may think "progressive domestic policies" can do to alleviate domestic issues arising from trade, they do nothing to change the purposely and structurally exploitative nature of trade agreements and the associated international enforcement mechanisms.  So-called free trade agreements, or the more righteous sounding fair trade agreements, always favor the largest signatories to such agreements the most.  By design.  I suggest reading works and op-eds written by non-western political leaders and academics. 


I suggest that the history of and follow-on effects from colonialism, genocide, the international slave trade, wars of aggression, the establishment of and military defense of rapacious extractive industries pursuing mercantilist policies, attempting to and occasionally succeeding at purposely eradicating cultures, and establishing new country boundaries with no heed paid to regional cultural history or with an eye to causing instability have all led to far more measurable harm than so-called "unfettered capitalism".  Whatever that is.

All those things are unfettered capitalism.
Do remember that just because a bunch of EuroAmerican intellectuals invented the term one or two hundred years does not mean the thing signified by that term did not exist before them.

They are wonderful institutions.  For the West.  They should not be imposed upon the rest of the world.  That is imperialism fueled by cultural chauvinism and more than occasionally outright racism.

If thinking that all humans are equal and should have equal rights is culturally chauvinist and racist, then we should all try to be cultural chauvinists and racists.

[Todd]

All those things are unfettered capitalism.

Incorrect.

Do remember that just because a bunch of EuroAmerican intellectuals invented the term one or two hundred years does not mean the thing signified by that term did not exist before them.

The term and concept of capitalism (and socialism) are both intellectual byproducts of industrialization and the Enlightenment.  To be sure, certain traits of both long predate industrialization and the Enlightenment, but history has not changed because posters on GMG want it to.

If thinking that all humans are equal and should have equal rights is culturally chauvinist and racist, then we should all try to be cultural chauvinists and racists.

This perfectly exemplifies cultural chauvinism.  If you're going to be a cultural chauvinist, at least embrace it.  Good work.

[Madiel]

Okay, so the problem is... Ukraine was naughty for trying to be too Western and needs to be punished. Got it.

My main response is... Todd comes across as a typical American who assumes that the particular ways in which his own country is utterly fucked up represent "the West" in general.

Ukraine was not trying to become a vassal state of the USA. Its primary goal was to stop being a vassal state of Russia. There are other options in between. But we've been subjected to this crazy ongoing campaign because of a person projecting his own deep-seated issues. And I'm referring to Todd here, not Putin.

[SimonNZ]

It would also impede Russian sovereignty.  It appears impossible for a good number of people to understand that contemporary western political ideas and economic constraints are not as appealing to the entire world as they are to western Europeans.  Western ideals are not universal.  Public policy is much less so.

You have to disregard a lot of information about migration and refugee patterns, and a lot of information about popular uprisings and revolutions and calls for reforms and crushed dissent to make these sweeping statements about what you're absolutely sure the non-western world absolutely does not want.

[71 dB]

This may sound indifferent, but now almost a year into the war I am used to its existence. Mankind isn't smart enough to not have conflicts here and there so we have this war in Europe. It sucks a lot of course, but it is what it is, stupidity of mankind.

Nowadays I am apathetic, even more introverted, tired, bitter and extremely pessimistic about the future (of the whole planet). Instead of having wars and wasting billions of money on military, mankind should be working hard to deal with climate change for a start!

Mankind has completely lost the sense of what meaningful existence means and we are probably doomed because of that. Nowadays thinkers, humanists and other people who have an idea of how we should live our lives are pushed into the marginal while all kind of mentally ill grifters are in the limelights brainwashing people further into madness.

Maybe I am too old (almost 52), but I don't like the World much as it is today. Hence my introvert nature is amplified and all I can do is to practise escapism to the happier times such as the 90's when I was too naive and ignorant to understand how stupid mankind really is and I had tons of optimism for the 21st century. Lack of smart good people is not the problem. The problem is these people don't have enough power to guide and lead as, because good people are not power-hungry. Authoritarian monsters are more likely to do the things that give them power.

So, I try to live as if it was the 90's. I watch Twin Peaks and listen to the electronic music of early 90's. Also self-studies into music theory and making music is therapy. That way I can keep myself sane, but don't ask me to care about what happens in the World today. Back in the day I imagined by the 2020's Russia to have transformed into a democratic western country without aspirations to wage war. Instead we got Covid-19 pandemic, a work-life with requirements so high there is near zero chance I can ever meet them, a war in Europe forcing Finland to join NATO ASAP, energy crises launching crazy inflation and causing energy poverty, possible black-outs (!) and so on... on the flip side Arrowfilms released a boxset of the Ju-On films. Hurrah!, but even if these Japanese J-Horror movies are VERY dear to me, I'd say a boxset of movies can't compensate for the bad, not even close. So, again a miserable year with much more negative than positive. At least I have now finally learned to not hope for anything better for the next year. My optimism was seriously hurt September 11, 2001. The 20's has killed it and it is now buried six feet under. RIP. Pessimism in me on the other hand is stronger than ever! 

I live in my internal fantasy World. That's why I don't participate almost at all to the discussion, especially when half of the discussion is about how insane the posts by Todd are. Sorry if this post feels like an introverted monolog, because that's what it is. I wrote this because I feel I need to do it as a form of ventilation.

[Todd]

Wars have bloopers, too: Grenade launcher gifted by Ukraine wounds Polish police chief

[Herman]

This may sound indifferent, but now almost a year into the war I am used to its existence. Mankind isn't smart enough to not have conflicts here and there so we have this war in Europe. It sucks a lot of course, but it is what it is, stupidity of mankind.

I live in my internal fantasy World.

This is a completely rational reaction. All best!

[Todd]

Looks like the word rational has now lost all meaning.

[LKB]

Looks like the word rational has now lost all meaning.

I invite all to refer to post #4365 from a few days ago, the post which Todd subsequently deleted is quoted there.

Imho, anyone advocating slavery has essentially removed themselves from serious consideration in the context of any adult discussion, especially if opining on possible definitions of the word, " rational ".

[Herman]

I called the way our friend from Finland responds to the current circumstances 'rational', why? If you can't bear the way it is, and you can't change it, it is rational to live in your own world, if this feels better.
It's certainly better than trolling a music group.

[71 dB]

This is a completely rational reaction. All best!

I called the way our friend from Finland responds to the current circumstances 'rational', why? If you can't bear the way it is, and you can't change it, it is rational to live in your own world, if this feels better.
It's certainly better than trolling a music group.

Thanks for your acceptance and understanding Herman!

[Todd]

I invite all to refer to post #4365 from a few days ago, the post which Todd subsequently deleted is quoted there.

I did not delete any post.  If it was deleted, the moderators deleted it.  My assessment of Ukraine's value and the irrelevance of whether it is free or enslaved from an American security standpoint stands.  Ukraine was not independent until 1991.  US security and prosperity was not negatively impacted by its status prior to that time. 

I called the way our friend from Finland responds to the current circumstances 'rational', why? If you can't bear the way it is, and you can't change it, it is rational to live in your own world, if this feels better.

Fantasy is now reality.

[LKB]

quote

Fantasy is now reality.

Rather ironic, that you yourself should provide the most appropriate label for the verbose bs you've been inflicting upon readers here.

As you're manifestly unworthy of any democratic nation, why don't you just go to work for Putin? You'd be able to drop any pretense of rational discourse, and he'd probably compensate you well enough. Hell, he might not even have you killed, once he decided you were no longer needed.

[Todd]

As you're manifestly unworthy of any democratic nation, why don't you just go to work for Putin?

Any variant of the Putin apologist argument, however ornamented, has no meaning.

Also, it might be helpful if you could quote properly.

[Mandryka]

Residents throw eggs at penis-headed statue of Putin erected in Bell End

https://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/national/23194010.residents-throw-eggs-penis-headed-statue-putin-erected-bell-end/

[Todd]

Residents throw eggs at penis-headed statue of Putin erected in Bell End

https://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/national/23194010.residents-throw-eggs-penis-headed-statue-putin-erected-bell-end/

Post-modern effigy burning.

[71 dB]

Residents throw eggs at penis-headed statue of Putin erected in Bell End

https://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/national/23194010.residents-throw-eggs-penis-headed-statue-putin-erected-bell-end/

Wow! Residents of Bell End do not hold back!

[LKB]

Any variant of the Putin apologist argument, however ornamented, has no meaning.

Also, it might be helpful if you could quote properly.

Did you quote me properly then?