Purchases Today

[Todd]

People buy CDs, LPs or downloads (all of them commodities indeed) because they want to listen to the music therein contained. If that doesn't qualify as desire, I don't know what does.

This does not coincide with reality.  Streaming is the dominant form of music consumption now.  And of course, the "resurgence" in the stats is not inflation adjusted, so in real terms, and when adjusted for population, music consumption appears to have declined this century. 

[MN Dave]

Some people say I'm a streamer, but I'm not the only one ...

[Florestan]

Certainly for more people than today. Music was costly, and physical objects something to be cherished for quite a lot of consumers. Of course, the market was smaller. And many had to be content with an hour of music of ones particular field of interest every now and then.

A very unfortunate state of affairs which contemporary technology rendered obsolete --- and God be praised for that! Music which 50 years ago was within the reach of a few, both physically and financially, is now just one click and a few bucks away. That some people, especially older ones, still cling to ideas of physical ownership of music in the guise of CDs and LPs (talk about addiction to commodities..) or that some people, especially older ones, are not familiar (and in some cases, even reluctant to become familiar) with contemporary technology does not invalidate the general picture: today, right now when I'm typing this, there is more music available to the common people, in more genres and styles and at more affordable prices (or even for free) than in all centuries preceding the current one combined.

Think of it this way: back in the 1770s, if you were not privy to the Eszterhazys, your chance to hear about, let alone hear, Haydn's music was nil. Today, we are spoilt for choices with respect to his music. Why someone would regard this obvious and commendable progress as actually an involution from "music as object of desire" to "music as commodity" is beyond my comprehension.

The older generation still in many cases cherishes the albums bought in their youths, I cannot see that happen to very many of the current generation. Music is something to be consumed before one moves on to the next new thing. I would be happy to be wrong, but I doubt it.

Paradoxically --- or maybe not --- that was precisely the musical philosophy in Haydn's and Mozart's own time. Audiences wanted something new every time. After all, why is it that Haydn wrote 100+ symphonies and Mozart 24+ piano concertos? Because the latest one was consumed and people wanted a new one. The ossification of the repertoire in just a few half dozens warhorses had to wait for another century. and this is yet another respect in which the contemporary world is infinitely better than the older ones: a "classical music" lover has easy and affordable access to a far wider range of music than their counterpart in the 1980s or 1880s, let alone 1780s, 1680s or, perish teh thought, 1480s. In my book this is an exceptional progress.

[Florestan]

Streaming is the dominant form of music consumption now. 

Which, while true, in no way invalidates my point: people who buy LPs, CDs and downloads do so because they want to listen to the music therein contained.

[Todd]

Which, while true, in no way invalidates my point: people who buy LPs, CDs and downloads do so because they want to listen to the music therein contained.

But far fewer people do than in the past, validating The new erato's outlook and invalidating yours.

[Florestan]

But far fewer people do than in the past, validating The new erato's outlook and invalidating yours.

This is immaterial. People who buy music stored on physical media do so because they want to listen to that music, iow they desire it. People who buy downloads do so because they want to listen to that music, iow they desire it. People who stream music do so because they want to listen to that music, iow they desire it. In all three cases, The New Erato's point is invalidated. My two cents, of course, YMMV.

[Todd]

In all three cases, The New Erato's point is invalidated.

No, not really. 

[Florestan]

No, not really. 

I should have thought/hoped that you kept your trolling in the war thread only and that a normal, goodwill discussion was still possible with you in other threads --- I was obviously, clearly and utterly wrong.

(I know, I know, incorrect. Spare me --- and your own time, too. From now on as far as I'm concerned you are on read-only mode.)

[Todd]

I should have thought/hoped that you kept your trolling in the war thread only and that a normal, goodwill discussion was still possible with you in other threads --- I was obviously, clearly and utterly wrong.

(I know, I know, incorrect. Spare me --- and your own time, too. From now on as far as I'm concerned you are on read-only mode.)

I was reinforcing that what you wrote does not correspond to observable data.  One can make claims about some subset of people who still purchase and cherish music, and there will always be people like that, but music as a whole may not have the same social relevance today as it did before, that it may very well be merely consumed.  There is reason to believe that may have always been the case for a large subset of listeners, but maybe not.  There is also ample reason to believe that music does not carry the social significance it once did for a lot of people because there are many other forms of content - some meaningful, some not - that have supplanted music. 

It is not at all surprising that the word trolling is trotted out when any disagreement arises.  This is the internet, after all.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

I live in the north of the Netherlands, and no there are no stores left of any significance. Its all on line.

That's quite right and very dispiriting - I used to love browsing through specialist LP/CD shops. Even the local town (Tunbridge Wells) once had two decent classical record shops. Now the remaining HMV store has an ever diminishing classical section featuring CDs like 'Beethoven's Greatest Hits' etc 

There are some cd/record shops, including big stores like Tower Records and Disk Union, in Tokyo. There are many classical, jazz, and world music discs there. People over 40 years old (some young as well) come there every weekend, and they make friends. There are many coffee shops around the record shops, and these 'weekend friends' discuss about music and discs they have bought at the cafes. Some people even take a bullet train for one hour, pay $50, and come to the stores on weekends.


https://maps.app.goo.gl/hm2ibHsdS3prjrvX6?g_st=ic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/rbGgqNt1C6f3Ht5k7?g_st=ic

[Madiel]

Music is something to be consumed before one moves on to the next new thing. I would be happy to be wrong, but I doubt it.

If you look at the pop charts, certain songs and albums are actually hanging around a lot longer now on average than they used to.

Now, whether that's a good thing or not is an open question. Maybe the algorithms are just pushing people to all listen to the same popular thing. But the hits are often staying hits for quite some time. When people bought albums you didn't actually see the ongoing popularity because the charts would not record how often they were playing those songs at home after purchase. But in the streaming model, you can see that certain songs are still in high rotations a couple of years after their original release.

[vandermolen]

Not the HMV store by Bond Street Station but the other one further down Oxford Street, which was opened by Edward Elgar in the 1930's, including a wonderful Classical CD section in the 1990's. I spent many pleasurable hours there. It was taken over by Michael Ashley to sell discount trainers. Sacrilege! Tower Records at Piccadilly/Regent Street has fared even worse. I passed it last Sunday, prime site boarded up!

Farringdon Records in Cheapside was a great favourite and Brighton, where I worked had a couple including the 'Classical Longplayer'; you could bump into fellow CD nutters in those shops and have enjoyable conversations (like the one parodied in 'Great Bores of The World' in Private Eye).

[Lisztianwagner]

Bought this morning:

     

[Florestan]

We don't have "tracks" in classical music

We most certainly have tracks on CDs and many classical music reviews reference what they are talking about with, for instance, Track 3, 2:03-2:35.    

As for cataloguing, I'm interested in listening to music, not in the correctness (or lack thereof) of its cataloguing. If the only way to hear what I want to hear is by streaming, I will use it. Depriving myself of a very useful tool because their cataloguing is flawed would be like not seeing the forest because of the trees. 

[Florestan]

you are a consumer of music as a commodity. I'm not and lots of other people I know from here aren't either.

You know exactly nothing about why I listen to music or about how I process and store my information about it so please stop making baseless and supercilious judgmental comments about me.

[Florestan]

There is nothing wrong about regarding music as something to be consumed, rather than curated and collated.

Okay, maybe I misunderstood you. What exactly do you mean by music is something to be curated and collated rather than consumed? In my book music is something to be listened to. The medium through which the listening takes place is immaterial.

[Irons]

Farringdon Records in Cheapside was a great favourite and Brighton, where I worked had a couple including the 'Classical Longplayer'; you could bump into fellow CD nutters in those shops and have enjoyable conversations (like the one parodied in 'Great Bores of The World' in Private Eye).

Missed out on Farringdon. But a regular visitor to Brighton and not for the sea air. Four locations, first port of call was "The Record Album" in North Street which had an extensive Classical section. Then onto "The Lanes" where records were sold in a large emporium of collective sellers. After that, close to Brighton station, a very elderly chap owned a shop specialising in LPs of music for films with a selection of Classical records too. Finally to Hove and "Fine Records" in George Street. Not so much a misspent youth but a misspent middle age.  

[vandermolen]

Missed out on Farringdon. But a regular visitor to Brighton and not for the sea air. Four locations, first port of call was "The Record Album" in North Street which had an extensive Classical section. Then onto "The Lanes" where records were sold in a large emporium of collective sellers. After that, close to Brighton station, a very elderly chap owned a shop specialising in LPs of music for films with a selection of Classical records too. Finally to Hove and "Fine Records" in George Street. Not so much a misspent youth but a misspent middle age.  

Oh yes - I was v familiar with Fine Records in Hove - a great place.

[Wanderer]

[Florestan]

Consumption v. collection. Assume someone owns no CDs and only listens to music via a streaming service: they consume music, they don't collect it. Then you have someone with 10,000 CDs on their shelves which, of necessity, they have to organise in some way (by composer, by conductor, by orchestra, whatever). They obviously listen to their music, too, but they collect and curate their physical collection in addition to listening.

It's not a moral judgment. It's simply an observation. Some people obsess about Star Trek and do cosplay meetups and the like; and some of us just watch the movies. The way people engage with anything varies. In the context of this discussion about streaming services, the consumption or listening to music is being compared and contrasted with the listening to and organising of a music collection.

Since you cannot listen to that which you cannot readily find, too, then "the correctness (or lack thereof) of its cataloguing" actually becomes an important part of listening to music well. You implied that listening and cataloguing were separate things and that you were more interested in the one than the other. My point is, the one enables and enhances the other and thus both are important. And so, the medium does (or, rather, can) matter. A well-organised music collection invites itself to be a well-listened collection, in other words. To the extent that Spotify and Qobuz try to catalogue things their end correctly, I think they'd agree with me. I just don't like being at the mercy of their cataloguing decisions with respect to classical music (which I don't think they really understand).

Thank you for this detailed post. Yep, I definitely misunderstood you --- I inferred from your initial post that you regard "consumming music" as an inferior, less serious and less engaging form of music appreciation than "collecting music", hence my overreaction. I apologize.

I don't rely on Spotify cataloguing system, in fact I am completely indifferent to it. I just use their search function. For instance, by searching for "Chopin Waltzes" I found such gems as Artur Moreira Lima and Ingrid Haebler. Then I hit play and start listening.

As for my own musical library, it's thoroughly organized and at any given time of the day or of the night I know exactly where to find what I am looking for. I guess this applies to 99.99 % of the "classical music" lovers.