Europe at War

[prémont]

Doesn't work for me. I personally think the best way to deal with that kind of posters* is to put them on a read-only mode. I mean, read their posts, get angry, don't reply. 

Doesn't work for me. If I can avoid it, I don't want to get angry.

* Actually, I am not aware of any other poster of this kind save Todd.

Nor do I, so there is only one poster on my ignore list.

[milk]

I'm happy to read the different takes on this war since I know very little about its context. My assumption is that the Ukraine would not have had much hope without U.S. support. I may be wrong. I've never studied the history of these areas in question and I don't know much about military planning.
My gut reaction at the beginning was to hope for Putin and Russia's failure. It's a very complicated situation to say the least. I read what people say and I still don't hope to have a completely informed opinion about it all.

If you think that a goodwill, meaningful, rational and reasonable argument can be had with someone whose style of argumentation consists of (1) repetitive, snide one-liners, (2) provocative formulations calculated to trigger the ire of the opponent, and (3) "Incorrect.", be my guest. In my book it's called feeding the troll.

I get what you're saying. However, he does present well-supported arguments. I'm sorry to say that people here haven't convinced me they're up to his level in presenting other sides. That's not intended as an insult to anyone and it doesn't at all convince me he's right. It makes me want to read/listened somewhere else to other opinions.

I'll be completely honest and lay my cards on the table. I'm as emotional or more emotional than anyone here. It's probably gotten me into trouble many times in my life. But I've tried to work on this and maybe it's just my own way of seeing things that leads me to view this thread in this way. I work from my own context, obviously. I just try check myself when I see my own emotional reactions. Yes, Todd is insulting, and not just in the political threads. Maybe it's possible to laugh at it instead of being triggered and insulted? I'm not accusing any one person of being over-emotional but I do think people generally spend too much energy on that and not the other thing. It's just my one small opinion. I've been insulted by a few people in this thread. I think they're petty jerks. But it's funny to get so triggered. And as for Todd, it's just my opinion that he's got the best of folks around here. My two cents: make better arguments. Why does nobody try just completely ignoring his insults and just countering his arguments one by one. Why focus on the emotion?

[Herman]

it's just my opinion that he's got the best of folks around here. My two cents: make better arguments.

Alternatively: don't even try. It's feeding the troll.

[Madiel]

You say he presents well-supported arguments??

Mostly he doesn't present an argument. He forwards links and adds one smart-arse comment.

When I was bothering to read some a few months ago, a number of the articles were actually pretty bad sources.

[Que]

News from the battlefield:

The Russian Svatove-Kreminna frontline in the northeastern region of Luhansk could soon collapse. The occupational administration in Svatove has been evacuated to Luhansk ciy.

Meanwhile Russian forces are heavily fortifying the southern city of Melitopol, apparently in anticipation of an Ukrainian offensive in the Zaporizhzhia region.

[Florestan]

he does present well-supported arguments.

Very rarely. Most of the time he fulminates against the imperialism and militarism of the USA, NATO and the West in general while justifying, and approving of, Russian imperialism and militarism.

Yes, Todd is insulting, and not just in the political threads. Maybe it's possible to laugh at it instead of being triggered and insulted? .. Why does nobody try just completely ignoring his insults and just countering his arguments one by one.

Arguing with someone who constantly insults and mocks his opponents is a complete waste of one's time.

[Bachtoven]

One of the benefits of the new forum design is that, somehow, scrolling past ignored posts is smoother and easier than before.

Yes, but the posts are still there--they are just covered until one chooses to reveal them. I prefer the method that some other sites offer: the posts aren't visible at all.

[Madiel]

Yes, but the posts are still there--they are just covered until one chooses to reveal them. I prefer the method that some other sites offer: the posts aren't visible at all.

Meh. I'm content with the method where I can occasionally pretend that Todd exists, just like Putin can occasionally pretend that there's a war and Ukraine is a real country.

[drogulus]

News from the battlefield:

The Russian Svatove-Kreminna frontline in the northeastern region of Luhansk could soon collapse. The occupational administration in Svatove has been evacuated to Luhansk ciy.

Meanwhile Russian forces are heavily fortifying the southern city of Melitopol, apparently in anticipation of an Ukrainian offensive in the Zaporizhzhia region.

    Don't troll me with substance.

    It certainly looks like the Ukes want to cut the Russian front in half and put a bullseye on Crimea. Russia can't defend the whole line.

     

[Karl Henning]

Doesn't work for me. If I can avoid it, I don't want to get angry.

Exactly. So I don't read his posts and, should a friend quote one of his posts, I just scroll on. His blather simply does not merit my time or attention.

[milk]

Very rarely. Most of the time he fulminates against the imperialism and militarism of the USA, NATO and the West in general while justifying, and approving of, Russian imperialism and militarism.


Arguing with someone who constantly insults and mocks his opponents is a complete waste of one's time.

I wouldn't argue with him. Extract the argument. My disagreement is with people saying he ONLY insults. He presents very informed arguments that have got me thinking. I'm observing Todd is well-read in history and in economics.  This isn't to say he's faultless (he didn't stick around to defend Trump after the January 6th fiasco, for example). But I wonder if part of the reason that people are so triggered by, and focused on, the insults is that they don't have the comprehensive knowledge to counter all his arguments. Those that say he doesn't have any real knowledge at all don't seem to be living in the same reality as me and, I think, ultimately show themselves to be weak.
I live in Japan. The policies of all the Asian countries rely on the U.S. being what it is and we could be very much on a trajectory towards a world war or annihilation. At the very least I want to consider many views. I'd forgotten that Todd's views used to be the ones of the left. I just lost touch because the left became kind of loonie in my eyes. But the mainstream right and left in global policy were always suspicious to us when we were students. It doesn't hurt to remember to question these views.
Personally I still feel worried about a country like Russia being a bully but I don't think anyone has refuted Todd about the U.S.'s steps before this all happened. Everything the U.S. does matters in terms of life and death on this globe. Yes, Taiwanese people matter to me as do Hong Kong people. It sickened me to see HK people lose their freedom not least because I met some of those students. I don't want to see Taiwanese people lose their freedom. It's Their choice to declare their freedoms.
But...
The question is about what sacrifices we are willing to make and why are we willing to make them and what the costs of war are. Again, I would forget the insults and just keep arguing this stuff in good faith. There's no need to really care about someone's purported bad faith.
I've been working on this in my self. I did in 2022. If I'm reacting emotionally, that's really on me. I don't really need anything from anyone on the internet, now do I?

[drogulus]

     Nothing deterred Putin in Chechnya, Syria, Georgia or Ukraine. I sense a theme here.

     Enough slack has been cut IMV. The notion that the West has provoked Russia can only be rendered sensible if you factor in that aggressors have no respect for weakness. In that sense, yes, of course Putin was provoked.

     Putin overestimated the extent of the fecklessness and self-sabotage he has cultivated. The TrumPutinists seem to have lost their mojo. Maybe they get it back, do you think? I don't see it yet.

[JBS]

I wouldn't argue with him. Extract the argument. My disagreement is with people saying he ONLY insults. He presents very informed arguments that have got me thinking. I'm observing Todd is well-read in history and in economics.  This isn't to say he's faultless (he didn't stick around to defend Trump after the January 6th fiasco, for example). But I wonder if part of the reason that people are so triggered by, and focused on, the insults is that they don't have the comprehensive knowledge to counter all his arguments. Those that say he doesn't have any real knowledge at all don't seem to be living in the same reality as me and, I think, ultimately show themselves to be weak.
I live in Japan. The policies of all the Asian countries rely on the U.S. being what it is and we could be very much on a trajectory towards a world war or annihilation. At the very least I want to consider many views. I'd forgotten that Todd's views used to be the ones of the left. I just lost touch because the left became kind of loonie in my eyes. But the mainstream right and left in global policy were always suspicious to us when we were students. It doesn't hurt to remember to question these views.
Personally I still feel worried about a country like Russia being a bully but I don't think anyone has refuted Todd about the U.S.'s steps before this all happened. Everything the U.S. does matters in terms of life and death on this globe. Yes, Taiwanese people matter to me as do Hong Kong people. It sickened me to see HK people lose their freedom not least because I met some of those students. I don't want to see Taiwanese people lose their freedom. It's Their choice to declare their freedoms.
But...
The question is about what sacrifices we are willing to make and why are we willing to make them and what the costs of war are. Again, I would forget the insults and just keep arguing this stuff in good faith. There's no need to really care about someone's purported bad faith.
I've been working on this in my self. I did in 2022. If I'm reacting emotionally, that's really on me. I don't really need anything from anyone on the internet, now do I?

Perhaps in Japan you're missing out on all the RW messaging--which Todd paraphrases in pseudointellectual terms and a veneer of self righteous superiority.
Put it succinctly, there's very little Todd says that has not been said by Tucker Carlson. But at least Todd doesn't channel the xenophobia and white supremacy that Tucker includes.
There's always been an isolationist element in the US Right, although it was a much weaker element between WW2 and the advent of Trump. Thanks to Trump it's now in control of the GOP and the Right's media outlets.

[Madiel]

but I don't think anyone has refuted Todd about the U.S.'s steps before this all happened

And what steps are those?

Putin keeps blaming the US and "the West" for the removal of Ukraine's pro-Russian President Yanukovych in 2014. Do you agree with that? On what grounds? While I'm far from well-versed in the entire history of Ukrainian politics from the country's independence, as far as I'm aware it was internal Ukrainian forces that led to that outcome. Much of the country wanted to join the EU. There was supposed to be an EU association agreement, and then unexpectedly Yanukovych rejected it. Protests ensued.

So what role did the US play in any of that? I'm not particularly aware of any trend of the US encouraging countries to join the EU.

I mean, Putin (and other Russians) also blame "the West" in the 19th century for inventing Ukrainian national identity in the first place. It was those damn Austrians, long before the US was a superpower.

Though it should be noted that Putin never mentions how the "Rus" in Kyiv centuries ago, from where Russia took its name, was actually a Viking kingdom. It seems his critique of how national identities gets formed only goes so far. Presumably the United States is off the hook for meddling in south-eastern Europe in the days before Columbus.

[milk]

Nothing deterred Putin in Chechnya, Syria, Georgia or Ukraine. I sense a theme here.

    Enough slack has been cut IMV. The notion that the West has provoked Russia can only be rendered sensible if you factor in that aggressors have no respect for weakness. In that sense, yes, of course Putin was provoked.

    Putin overestimated the extent of the fecklessness and self-sabotage he has cultivated. The TrumPutinists seem to have lost their mojo. Maybe they get it back, do you think? I don't see it yet.

I see your point but I'd like you to say more on this and press Todd more on this very point. There's an assumption here and a specific disagreement here about facts as well. Who's right? That doesn't need to be emotional.

Perhaps in Japan you're missing out on all the RW messaging--which Todd paraphrases in pseudointellectual terms and a veneer of self righteous superiority.
Put it succinctly, there's very little Todd says that has not been said by Tucker Carlson. But at least Todd doesn't channel the xenophobia and white supremacy that Tucker includes.
There's always been an isolationist element in the US Right, although it was a much weaker element between WW2 and the advent of Trump. Thanks to Trump it's now in control of the GOP and the Right's media outlets.

I just can't see how any of that is relevant. Maybe you could try to succinctly say how this is relevant to the questions of past, present and future U.S. policies. I'll repeat again that my inclination was toward supporting Ukraine and is towards supporting Taiwan and U.S. alliances around the world for counterbalancing China. But Todd makes interesting and reasonable counter arguments. What's going to produce peace? Peace, Love and Understanding, as it were?

[SimonNZ]

I see your point but I'd like you to say more on this and press Todd more on this very point.

*You* press Todd on it.

*You* spend a dozen or two dozen posts trying to get a straight sincere reply instead of sarcasm and delibeeate provocation.

Then see if you like it when we tell you not to get so emotional.

[milk]

Nothing deterred Putin in Chechnya, Syria, Georgia or Ukraine. I sense a theme here.

It's a bit of a "what about," but I KNOW what my super leftie friends, would say about what deters America from its wars. I've a Japanese friend who once told me angrily that "America killed more people in war than anyone!" I had to laugh at this. What else could I do? This doesn't mean Todd is right though. It's just to say there is something to consider about all this. Is it only the right that should be asking about America's interests in such far flung places, especially after ending a long conflict in Afghanistan with very questionable results?

[milk]

*You* press Todd on it.

*You* spend a dozen or two dozen posts trying to get a straight sincere reply instead of sarcasm and delibeeate provocation.

Then see if you like it when we tell you not to get so emotional.

I see what you mean. Maybe it's the points that need pressing then. Be cold. 

[Madiel]

@milk quit inserting yourself as some kind of umpire.

If you observe a "disagreement about facts", it's not our job to research it for you. You can do your own research and reach some conclusions about who is using reliable sources. There are of course some things on which reasonable minds might differ. More often opinions rather than facts, but sometimes facts are hard to ascertain for certain.

But then there are the cases where so-called alternative facts are not at all factual.

What we do NOT need, though, is you repeatedly popping up to not actually contribute to the discussion and instead just telling other people they aren't discussing properly. It's incredibly irritating. Not least because you keep giving a free pass to the one person who is actually wrecking the discussion. Maybe you have some misguided sense of "balance", but that idea is exactly what allows some of the most pernicious and toxic ideas in political discourse to survive.

No-one is obliged to keep explaining how the Earth is round or how man-made climate change is real or Joe Biden was elected President or how Russia invaded a sovereign country just because there's one jerk in the room who insists on debating these points. And half the time you don't even properly identify what points you think Todd has made, you just assert their existence. Spell it out, or get out.

[Madiel]

And what steps are those?

Putin keeps blaming the US and "the West" for the removal of Ukraine's pro-Russian President Yanukovych in 2014. Do you agree with that? On what grounds? While I'm far from well-versed in the entire history of Ukrainian politics from the country's independence, as far as I'm aware it was internal Ukrainian forces that led to that outcome. Much of the country wanted to join the EU. There was supposed to be an EU association agreement, and then unexpectedly Yanukovych rejected it. Protests ensued.

So what role did the US play in any of that? I'm not particularly aware of any trend of the US encouraging countries to join the EU.

I mean, Putin (and other Russians) also blame "the West" in the 19th century for inventing Ukrainian national identity in the first place. It was those damn Austrians, long before the US was a superpower.

Though it should be noted that Putin never mentions how the "Rus" in Kyiv centuries ago, from where Russia took its name, was actually a Viking kingdom. It seems his critique of how national identities gets formed only goes so far. Presumably the United States is off the hook for meddling in south-eastern Europe in the days before Columbus.

@milk feel free to start by actually replying to this.