Europe at War

[JBS]

I see your point but I'd like you to say more on this and press Todd more on this very point. There's an assumption here and a specific disagreement here about facts as well. Who's right? That doesn't need to be emotional. I just can't see how any of that is relevant. Maybe you could try to succinctly say how this is relevant to the questions of past, present and future U.S. policies. I'll repeat again that my inclination was toward supporting Ukraine and is towards supporting Taiwan and U.S. alliances around the world for counterbalancing China. But Todd makes interesting and reasonable counter arguments. What's going to produce peace? Peace, Love and Understanding, as it were?

What I am trying to say is that Todd's arguments generally don't seem reasonable or interesting to me; they merely repeat the neo-isolationist talking points I hear from Trumpniks.

[milk]

What I am trying to say is that Todd's arguments generally don't seem reasonable or interesting to me; they merely repeat the neo-isolationist talking points I hear from Trumpniks.

but you're just characterizing his points. You're not actually saying anything. He is. I'm sure you have made more substantive points here so I'm not saying you never say anything worthwhile. I just think we're off point at the moment. I have to do some work myself to go back through what I think his arguments boil down to and where the main differences are. From what I see, there's a real and serious debate here that gets sidetracked. Not only are people saying that Todd is a jerk, they're saying his arguments are laughable. However, in my opinion they don't do a good job at all of expressing an understanding of his arguments and refuting them. I mostly see a lot of outrage and dismissiveness.
I do notice that Todd can't be enlisted into seriously steel-manning his opposition. But then again, it seems ridiculous that no one here seems to think Todd isn't making a serious case. That's got it be corrected. If American foreign policy is going to continue this way, and if it's going to be there in opposition to China, then the case has got to be made. You can't very well just laugh at those who see an alternative. It's a scary world.

[Madiel]

However, in my opinion they don't do a good job at all of expressing an understanding of his arguments and refuting them.

I've tried, but as it seems you're ignoring me what's the point?

The whole notion that this is an American war, not a Ukrainian one, completely ignores what was going on in Ukraine in the years prior to 2014 and indeed the Ukrainian attitude to Russian domination over generations. Currently it's not clear that you recognise this whole premise of Todd's position is inaccurate.

Todd has at least once bought into the Russian notion that Ukraine is not a real country. Again an extremely problematic premise lying behind many of his arguments. That's one clear difference, the question is whether I need to spend time refuting it or not.

The other key point, of course, is that this is not actually a thread about US foreign policy. Todd constantly tries to make it into one, and apparently you want that to be a focus of discussion as well, but it's not. It's about a war in Europe. The US is one of a large number of countries offering support to Ukraine. I've no doubt it's support is important, but this is not a thread about US foreign policy any more than it is a thread about UK foreign policy, German foreign policy, Swedish and Finnish foreign policy, Australian foreign policy, Indian foreign policy, Chinese foreign policy etc etc.

[SimonNZ]

From what I see, there's a real and serious debate here that gets sidetracked. Not only are people saying that Todd is a jerk, they're saying his arguments are laughable. However, in my opinion they don't do a good job at all of expressing an understanding of his arguments and refuting them. I mostly see a lot of outrage and dismissiveness.

Then say what you like about his "arguments" and we'll see if you can do a better job than Todd of defending them.

[milk]

Then say what you like about his "arguments" and we'll see if you can do a better job than Todd of defending them.

I think he does a far better job than I could because, again, he seems to know much more. I don't read that much history. I've read no economic or military theory. There was a time when I read a bit of history and philosophy but I've forgotten much of it. I'm pretty tired these days with a 5 year old and a 3 year old and a job. The older I get the less I know. Some of the questions that might come out of these arguments are rather interesting if we could get past all the back and forth insulting.

[Madiel]

Some of the questions that might come out of these arguments are rather interesting if we could get past all the back and forth insulting.

Or the blatant ignoring of someone who is trying to engage with you.

[Gurn Blanston]

but you're just characterizing his points. You're not actually saying anything. He is. I'm sure you have made more substantive points here so I'm not saying you never say anything worthwhile. I just think we're off point at the moment. I have to do some work myself to go back through what I think his arguments boil down to and where the main differences are. From what I see, there's a real and serious debate here that gets sidetracked. Not only are people saying that Todd is a jerk, they're saying his arguments are laughable. However, in my opinion they don't do a good job at all of expressing an understanding of his arguments and refuting them. I mostly see a lot of outrage and dismissiveness.
I do notice that Todd can't be enlisted into seriously steel-manning his opposition. But then again, it seems ridiculous that no one here seems to think Todd isn't making a serious case. That's got it be corrected. If American foreign policy is going to continue this way, and if it's going to be there in opposition to China, then the case has got to be made. You can't very well just laugh at those who see an alternative. It's a scary world.

Thank you for spelling this out.  As one who has taken a modest amount of heat for not banning an 'opposition' voice, it's nice to see that at least one person here seems to understand that making people comfortable because they are surrounded by like thinkers is not doing them a favor.  There have been many people on the political topics who actually were playing at what you accuse Todd of, but a closer look will show that they aren't here anymore. You're welcome. 

If people want to voluntarily engage in a topic that has nothing to do with why we are here,  then you need to think more about the substance being presented than your personal feelings about the presenter. When you are concentrating on the innate assholery of the person making an argument,  you have already 'lost' both the high ground and the argument.

🤠

[milk]

Thank you for spelling this out.  As one who has taken a modest amount of heat for not banning an 'opposition' voice, it's nice to see that at least one person here seems to understand that making people comfortable because they are surrounded by like thinkers is not doing them a favor.  There have been many people on the political topics who actually were playing at what you accuse Todd of, but a closer look will show that they aren't here anymore. You're welcome. 

If people want to voluntarily engage in a topic that has nothing to do with why we are here,  then you need to think more about the substance being presented than your personal feelings about the presenter. When you are concentrating on the innate assholery of the person making an argument,  you have already 'lost' both the high ground and the argument.

🤠

I definitely didn't get interested in Todd's posts because I agreed with them. It's completely the contrary. And he still hasn't changed my mind. But he's brought me closer to the fence on some things and made me question other things more seriously. I mean, I'm not ready to abandon Europe and I wouldn't be happy to see Putin stomp around unchecked. But living in Japan I see Japan rearming itself while maintaining a nothing-sized military force and a constitutional amendment against war. It's untenable or questionable at best. What is reasonable to expect for America's role in the decades to come? People are dismissing Todd's view but who else is pushing back in this thread? How else are we to get an exchange of varying ideas?

[drogulus]

When you are concentrating on the innate assholery of the person making an argument,  you have already 'lost' both the high ground and the argument.

🤠

     No, I don't agree. The argument doesn't happen. It's like an election which hinges on a "border crisis" to make it close to impossible to legislate on immigration for the past few decades. That's what the "crisis" is for.

[Gurn Blanston]

I definitely didn't get interested in Todd's posts because I agreed with them. It's completely the contrary. And he still hasn't changed my mind. But he's brought me closer to the fence on some things and made me question other things more seriously. I mean, I'm not ready to abandon Europe and I wouldn't be happy to see Putin stomp around unchecked. But living in Japan I see Japan rearming itself while maintaining a nothing-sized military force and a constitutional amendment against war. It's untenable or questionable at best. What is reasonable to expect for America's role in the decades to come? People are dismissing Todd's view but who else is pushing back in this thread? How else are we to get an exchange of varying ideas?

I wasn't saying that you were agreeing or disagreeing with him, I was merely celebrating the fact that you are actually trying to work with his POV to try and understand its ramifications. 

I rarely (but far from never) agree either,  but if I can't stand being here because someone with a different POV isn't being squashed to make me more comfortable, then it's time to look at myself.  I am a long way away from banning someone for having pathological character defects.  If I did that (with mod consensus of course), there would be fewer members. 😄

🤠 

[Fëanor]

...
I wouldn't argue with him. Extract the argument. My disagreement is with people saying he ONLY insults. He presents very informed arguments that have got me thinking. I'm observing Todd is well-read in history and in economics.  This isn't to say he's faultless (he didn't stick around to defend Trump after the January 6th fiasco, for example). But I wonder if part of the reason that people are so triggered by, and focused on, the insults is that they don't have the comprehensive knowledge to counter all his arguments.
...

I agree that Todd isn't simply a troll.  I also agree that he makes reasoned arguments that a quite well informed. And perhaps even true that some folks focus on his insults for reasons as you say.  (Personally I am very thick-skinned.)

But it doesn't matter how reasoned you arguments if they are based on flawed premises or are ethically weak.  Nor does it matter how well cherry-picked your facts if they ignore the bigger realities.

[Madiel]

Thank you for spelling this out.  As one who has taken a modest amount of heat for not banning an 'opposition' voice, it's nice to see that at least one person here seems to understand that making people comfortable because they are surrounded by like thinkers is not doing them a favor.  There have been many people on the political topics who actually were playing at what you accuse Todd of, but a closer look will show that they aren't here anymore. You're welcome. 

If people want to voluntarily engage in a topic that has nothing to do with why we are here,  then you need to think more about the substance being presented than your personal feelings about the presenter. When you are concentrating on the innate assholery of the person making an argument,  you have already 'lost' both the high ground and the argument.

🤠

You took heat from me for locking the thread when someone else did to Todd what Todd did to everyone else. You're still running this other narrative and you completely ignored the PM where I explained why that narrative is false. With the specific example of what was actually happening.

It's got nothing to do with being an opposition voice. On other forums I've encountered people who I generally agree with who employ Todd's sorts of tactics, and I hated it. And I would happily embrace an opposition voice that did NOT come with innate assholery.

Plus, Todd's own assholery is not confined to this topic. I first encountered it on the thread about movies where he hounded me over a film I hadn't even seen and had no opinion on. Eventually when I did see it years later, my opinion on it was very similar to Todd's. So no, it's not about a differing opinion. It's about the stylistic choice of constantly mocking and belittling people.

But please, keep telling yourself you aren't the worst moderator here by a large distance. And not just because of this.

[Florestan]

it's not about a differing opinion. It's about the stylistic choice of constantly mocking and belittling people.

Exactly.

[JBS]

but you're just characterizing his points. You're not actually saying anything. He is. I'm sure you have made more substantive points here so I'm not saying you never say anything worthwhile. I just think we're off point at the moment. I have to do some work myself to go back through what I think his arguments boil down to and where the main differences are. From what I see, there's a real and serious debate here that gets sidetracked. Not only are people saying that Todd is a jerk, they're saying his arguments are laughable. However, in my opinion they don't do a good job at all of expressing an understanding of his arguments and refuting them. I mostly see a lot of outrage and dismissiveness.
I do notice that Todd can't be enlisted into seriously steel-manning his opposition. But then again, it seems ridiculous that no one here seems to think Todd isn't making a serious case. That's got it be corrected. If American foreign policy is going to continue this way, and if it's going to be there in opposition to China, then the case has got to be made. You can't very well just laugh at those who see an alternative. It's a scary world.

What alternative is Todd suggesting?
You're correct about his arguments not being taken seriously (by me at least).
I don't take them seriously when I hear them from Fox or Russia Today or from any member of the U.S. isolationist Right. Why would I take them seriously when I hear them from Todd.

[Karl Henning]

And I would happily embrace an opposition voice that did NOT come with innate assholery.

Plus, Todd's own assholery is not confined to this topic. I first encountered it on the thread about movies where he hounded me over a film I hadn't even seen and had no opinion on. Eventually when I did see it years later, my opinion on it was very similar to Todd's. So no, it's not about a differing opinion. It's about the stylistic choice of constantly mocking and belittling people.

Yes.

[Madiel]

I would now like to put on record that Gurn's response to my post was to press the Like button. That's it.

Anything that goes against his prior built narrative that it's just about disliking different views, washes straight over.

There are other moderators. I'd like to hear from them.

[Que]

The news from the battlefield reinforces the prospect of a faltering Russian Svatove-Kremmina frontline in the northeastern Luhansk region. Particularly the situation in Kreminna is critical. Russia is throwing in many of the reserves it has left to hold the lines, but is increasingly confronted with deserting troops.

Also more and more reports that Russian economy is heading for a breaking point and that a bank run has been developping over the past few days, triggered by restrictions on cash withdrawals.

[Harry]

The news from the battlefield reinforces the prospect of a faltering Russian Svatove-Kremmina frontline in the northeastern Luhansk region. Particularly the situation in Kreminna is critical. Russia is throwing in many of the reserves it has left to hold the lines, but is increasingly confronted with deserting troops.

Also more and more reports that Russian economy is heading for a breaking point and that a bank run has been developping over the past few days, triggered by restrictions on cash withdrawals.

Lets see if Poetin gives in to the internal pressure of the Kremlin, to stop this war. The resistance to the war seems to be mounting to a critical level.

[71 dB]

What has Russia achieved with this war so far?

Is Russia better off now than a year ago?

Doesn't look like that to me, but I'm just a clueless dude online...

[Que]

What has Russia achieved with this war so far?

Is Russia better off now than a year ago?

Doesn't look like that to me, but I'm just a clueless dude online...

If the recurring reports of the early stage of Parkinson's and late stage cancer are correct, Putin tried to leave his everlasting mark on the history of Russia. Well, in that he has succeeded...