Europe at War

[Todd]

Still quoting out of context, and still evading the obvious truths.

Incorrect.  Again. 

[Florestan]

There is a perfect inverse correlation between substantive argumentation and use of the word "troll" or any of its derivatives.

If you imply that that post of yours I called trolling was meant to have any substance worth of calm and rational discussion and was not calculated to trigger exactly the reaction it triggered (ie, it was not trolling), then you're insulting our intelligence. And it's not for the first time, I might add.

[Todd]

If you imply that that post of yours I called trolling was meant to have any substance worth of calm and rational discussion and was not calculated to trigger exactly the reaction it triggered (ie, it was not trolling), then you're insulting our intelligence. And it's not for the first time, I might add.

My post was very clear.

[Florestan]

One of his motives seems to be a simple desire for entertainment

Entertaining oneself by making deliberately provocative remarks on an internet board is the very definition of trolling.

What entertaining oneself by a topic involving war can be defined as, I left to you as an exercise.

[drogulus]

    Putin has got to be the worst vassal ever.

    Another possibility is vassal theory is underperforming in the market of ideas. As influential as the US is, Putin and Zelensky still have considerable freedom of action.

    I don't think NATO could force a reluctant Putin to attack Ukraine in the real world. One might say Germany sorely tempted him, and along with the success of Operation TrumPutin you could make a case that criminal negligence was a significant factor. That's not a good fit for vassal theory though.

    Even Luka, who under vassal theory is little more than a wind up toy, seems to be doing everything he can to avoid committing Belo troops to a new attack. If vassal theory can't even explain the Clowntator, what good is it for Putin, Zelensky or anyone else?

     Finally (I'm not promising anything) a theory that is used to explain any decision Zelensky or Putin makes, whether to fight or negotiate, or fight and negotiate, to make few concessions, many or none, isn't much good for anything. It explains everything and its opposite equally well, such as a war over by Christmas (pick one), a war that lasts for years (hah! It's exactly what Biden wants!), or a peace deal of any kind (designed to spark the next war and enrich the war profiteers).

[Florestan]

TrumPutin

Any comparison between Trump and Putin is moot until and unless you will name three political opponents or investigative journalists imprisoned or killed by Trump's (alleged) order and three nations previously under USA direct control that Trump waged war against.

[Fëanor]

There is no profit in it. People keep feeding the troll and provocateur with ammunition, so he keeps firing for the fun of it. Don't feed the troll and he will starve of depravation. If there is no air the fire will die out quickly.

I suspect he is not so much a troll as a malicious neurotic.

[Todd]

Entertaining oneself by making deliberately provocative remarks on an internet board is the very definition of trolling.

What entertaining oneself by a topic involving war can be defined as, I left to you as an exercise.

I mean what I write about the cause of the war, the potential consequences of the war, the pernicious nature of Eurocentrism, the exact moral equivalence of Ukrainians and Yemeni and other suffering non-European people, and the immorality displayed by warmongers.  Entertainment is a byproduct.

[drogulus]

   

Any comparison between Trump and Putin is moot until and unless you will name three political opponents or investigative journalists imprisoned or killed by Trump's (alleged) order and three nations previously under USA direct control that Trump waged war against.

    It's not a comparison. It's mutual interest. Putin wanted to weaken America, Trump wanted to be President. It's a perfect fit.

[Florestan]

It's not a comparison. It's mutual interest. Putin wanted to weaken America, Trump wanted to be President. It's a perfect fit.

Is America weaker today than it was before Trump?

[Florestan]

the cause of the war

You surely meant to write "the causes of the war".

[prémont]

I suspect he is not so much a troll as a malicious neurotic.

What's the difference?

[Todd]

Is America weaker today than it was before Trump?

Using US GDP as a percentage of the global total, it was 24.21% as of 12/31/2015, and 24.16% as of 12/31/21.  Using this metric, one can attempt to argue that Trump weakened the US, even though US GDP as a percent of the global total has been declining since 1946.

The DOD budget went from $633 billion in 2015 to $778 billion in 2020 (and $858 billion now), so it is hard to say that Trump weakened the US using this metric.

I should like to see how the US is weaker now than in 2015.

You surely meant to write "the causes of the war".

Yes, causes.  All wars have multiple causes. 

[drogulus]

Is America weaker today than it was before Trump?

    TrumPutin failed. It was not popular outside the MAGAsphere, and I'll go out on a limb to surmise it was only a fairly small part of that group really committed to the notion of Putin as a White Christian hero.

[Fëanor]

It seems that concerns regarding NATO expansion simply weren't a high priority for Gorbachev. Perhaps he understood that unlike his eventual successor, none of the NATO member governments had any imperial ambitions.

... Indeed.

NATO was always conceived as a defensive association whose purpose was to deter Soviet aggression.  During the life time of the USSR it succeeded largely due to the rationality of the Soviet leaders.

With the collapse (under its own weight) of the USSR, newly freed former Soviet "republics" and satellites understood the instability of the new Russian politics, (probably much better than the USA), and accordingly clamored to join NATO.  Subsequent events have proven this a wise decision.

As a former soviet apparatchik, Putin is resentful of the collapse of the Soviet empire.  Further he is romantic dreamer who, in his irrational hubris, hopes to reestablish that empire. Irrational romantics are inherently dangerous, but it will never happen.

[Todd]

Subsequent events have proven this a wise decision.

Subsequent events, meaning the aggressive expansion of NATO, established the conditions that led to Russian aggression and the death of thousands of innocent civilians.  Online warriors defend this.  It is truly bizarre to witness large scale war in Europe and to see people openly applaud the decisions that led to this.

[71 dB]

Is America weaker today than it was before Trump?

Trump didn't make America great again, but he made it a laughing stock. It takes decades to undo the damage of Trump's presidency, especially when Democrats are so weak and can do almost nothing. Trump's actions have weakened American democracy (which is effectively in a bad place to begin with) massively. We are witnessing this right now with the Kevin McCarthy show. The House of Representatives is in chaos who know for how long... ..and how about the documents Trump stole and planned to sell to foreign countries? How much has Trump exposed information endangering the safety of the US and its allies?

[Florestan]

I should like to see how the US is weaker now than in 2015.

It isn't, by any stretch of imagination.

I will add one more metrics: the resilience of the US democratic institutions --- which proved rock solid during Trump's presidency and especially in its final months/days.

[Todd]

I will add one more metrics: the resilience of the US democratic institutions --- which proved rock solid during Trump's presidency and especially in its final months/days.

That does not comport with the corporate press narrative, which holds that the republic nearly died two years ago today. 

[Florestan]

Trump's actions have weakened American democracy

They certainly didn't, see my reply above.

The House of Representatives is in chaos who know for how long...

It is customary for Italy, Belgium or Spain to go for months with only a caretaker government because no agreement can be obtained for the composition of a new one. Are they less democratic countries than Finland because of that?