Europe at War

[Madiel]

What you wrote is detached from reality.  The NATO communique from June of last year is referenced, and that document together with the White House very clearly indicate that the fix is in.

I understand the desire for people who live in vassal states to pretend that NATO is something other than it actually is.

Your desire to reject the sovereignty of every country in Europe bar Russia is also understandable. It's pathetic and weirdly reminiscent of Donald Trump, but it's understandable.

Edit: Remember folks, this is the same guy who a couple of days ago was suddenly emphasising how  bad it would be to add Finland and Sweden to NATO unless every single member agreed. So who was pretending something different about what NATO was then, eh? The position changes simply on the basis of which view is going to to be the more contrary.

[71 dB]

Nobody asked me if I want to be born to a vassal state or somewhere else such as the United States. So I was born in Finland, a country that is ranked much higher than the United States when it comes to quality of live. At the moment we have a little more problems because our big neighbour has gone full terror state, but otherwise Finland is one of the best countries in the World to live in despite of cold dark winter. Todd could have been born anywhere in the World: Canada, Iran, South-Africa, Chile, Italy, Oman,... but he was born in the country that brainwashes its citizen to think they live in the best country in the World, but the the US reigns supreme in things such as biggest military power, most obese people and most people incarcerated per capita.

I don't mind living in a vassal state because things are so good: I have got free education, universal healthcare, one of the best quality tap water in the World, lots of beautiful nature, clean air, functioning democracy with hardly any corruption, safety, high food security,... ...even the cold dark winters aren't that bad when you get used to them. At least we have got four distinct seasons!

The US is in the process of selling F-16 fighters to Turkey and that will likely make Turkey much more willing to allow Sweden and Finland into NATO.

Finland is part of EU, which is an area of about 500 million people. Not that small.

[Todd]

Todd could have been born anywhere in the World: Canada, Iran, South-Africa, Chile, Italy, Oman,... but he was born in the country that brainwashes its citizen to think they live in the best country in the World, but the the US reigns supreme in things such as biggest military power, most obese people and most people incarcerated per capita.

Per GMG, I hate the US.  Per GMG, I think the US is the greatest country in the world.

Finland is part of EU, which is an area of about 500 million people. Not that small.

The EU has about 447 million people.  One of the problems with GMG is that it is usually devoid of even basic facts, easily obtained from any search engine.

[Madiel]

Nobody asked me if I want to be born to a vassal state or somewhere else such as the United States. So I was born in Finland, a country that is ranked much higher than the United States when it comes to quality of live. At the moment we have a little more problems because our big neighbour has gone full terror state, but otherwise Finland is one of the best countries in the World to live in despite of cold dark winter. Todd could have been born anywhere in the World: Canada, Iran, South-Africa, Chile, Italy, Oman,... but he was born in the country that brainwashes its citizen to think they live in the best country in the World, but the the US reigns supreme in things such as biggest military power, most obese people and most people incarcerated per capita.

I don't mind living in a vassal state because things are so good: I have got free education, universal healthcare, one of the best quality tap water in the World, lots of beautiful nature, clean air, functioning democracy with hardly any corruption, safety, high food security,... ...even the cold dark winters aren't that bad when you get used to them. At least we have got fours distinct seasons!

The US is in the process of selling F-16 fighters to Turkey and that will likely make Turkey much more willing to allow Sweden and Finland into NATO.

Finland is part of EU, which is an area of about 500 million people. Not that small.

I'm not in Europe, but yeah, we also regularly beat the USA on all sorts of quality of life measures. And I have spent my life in one of the world's most liveable cities. So I'm okay with that.

[drogulus]

    Membership in the imperial club has a range of costs/benefits. The costs appear much higher for a select group of defector states that intend the destruction of one or more neighbors.

    This should be understood. Russia, China, N. Korea and Iran don't need to destroy the enemies they choose to have. It's the need they need. The US situation doesn't require an enemy at the metaphysical level, and this becomes apparent when we get a Peace Threat like in the '90s.

    When this happens many Americans leap to the conclusion that It Was All A Big Misunderstanding! Far from needing an enemy US citizens will be tempted to think enemies were dreamed up by the Military Industrial Complex (peace, blessing, cash.....). Even Presidents catch the bug and start counting Peace Dividends.

    It's embarrassing, which means it should be. I get how Germany with its history could easily slip into dreamland under the protection of the World Police. But for my fellow Americans, it's just wow!

    There's no way for the guarantor of the world cooperator network to resign from its position. No ideology can provide that. Trump didn't make a dent. Neither will the end of Globalism 2.0 or the beginning of whatever 3.0 turns out to be. The US has motive and means and the situation will continue until one or both run out.

[71 dB]

The fate of a country of 10, 25, 50 million or whatever is much less important.  In some cases, it has no importance at all.

I guess 9/11 didn't matter at all. Only 3000 died. Not even one million! You are an asssssshole!!! You are hopeless and you should be banned from this board.

[71 dB]

I guess 9/11 didn't matter at all. Only 3000 died. Not even one million! You are an asssssshole!!! You are hopeless and you should be banned from this board.

China and India has the biggest population so they only matter.

[Todd]

I do not see a similar degree of moral outrage on this board when it comes to the deaths of five million plus Congolese in the two Congo wars, nor the hundreds of thousands of dead in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, etc.  Eurocentrism ensures that the fate of white people receives more attention.  And outrage.

[Madiel]

I guess 9/11 didn't matter at all. Only 3000 died. Not even one million! You are an asssssshole!!! You are hopeless and you should be banned from this board.

Or we could just drop a bomb on Oregon. It's not a big enough state to matter.

[71 dB]

I do not see a similar degree of moral outrage on this board when it comes to the deaths of five million plus Congolese in the two Congo wars, nor the hundreds of thousands of dead in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, etc.  Eurocentrism ensures that the fate of white people receives more attention.  And outrage.

I can't speak for everybody, but I have never been okay with wars anywhere. I want peace EVERYWHERE including Congo.

[Florestan]

you're being an idiot.

You've gone off on this idiotic tangent, not me.

Back on the ignore list you go. This time for good, you goon.

Okay. I'll let others judge the matter and if they rule in your favor I will submit.

[71 dB]

Or we could just drop a bomb on Oregon. It's not a big enough state to matter.

As an Australian you can afford think that, but Oregon has the same population as Finland...

[71 dB]

Time of exit this thread of bad vibes and misery. Time to listen to Mozart's Divertimenti!

[Todd]

I can't speak for everybody, but I have never been okay with wars anywhere. I want peace EVERYWHERE including Congo.

First, I thought I was on your ignore list.

Second, and more important, it was not until a white European country was attacked by another kind of European country (Russia's Europeanness is poster dependent) that a thread was devoted to a war.  Far more people have died in other conflicts and there has been no similar outpouring of moral outrage on this forum.

Third, war is horrific.  All powers involved with or interested in the outcome should be pushing for a negotiated settlement to the Russo-Ukrainian War.  The US should immediately cease all financial and military support for Ukraine, publicly call for a ceasefire, and publicly offer direct negotiations with Russia, with no topic of discussion off the table.  The topics should include not only guaranteed Ukrainian neutrality, but also a diminution of NATO.

[Madiel]

I do not see a similar degree of moral outrage on this board when it comes to the deaths of five million plus Congolese in the two Congo wars, nor the hundreds of thousands of dead in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, etc.  Eurocentrism ensures that the fate of white people receives more attention.  And outrage.

Classic whataboutism. This thread is about a particular war. Nothing is preventing you starting a different thread about a different war.

[Madiel]

As an Australian you can afford think that, but Oregon has the same population as Finland...

I don't think that. I was employing Todd's own argument to Todd's own location.

[Florestan]

The EU has about 447 million people.  One of the problems with GMG is that it is usually devoid of even basic facts, easily obtained from any search engine.

The above, in reply to this:

Finland is part of EU, which is an area of about 500 million people. Not that small.

If about 500 million is not an accurate aproximation of 447 million then either (1) 71dB is an idiot, or (2) Todd is an idiot. Pick your choice, folks, mine is (2) by a wide margin.

[Florestan]

Time to listen to Mozart's Divertimenti!

Stick to it, Poju!

[Que]

The US has motive and means and the situation will continue until one or both run out.

Hear, hear, hear.... And those means are to a significant extent derived from the US being in the privileged position it is, which is therefore for a substantial part self sustaining. Fine by me, BTW.

The US is the modern, global equivalent of the Roman Empire, but without the slavery (if you don't count the domestic disenfranchised).

But this thread is not about the US. I don't agree with Todd's argument that the US has nothing to gain from this war - it has significant stakes in its outcome - but frankly: I do not care... Just call me eurocentric. 

[Florestan]

The US is the modern, global equivalent of the Roman Empire

I've been making this point since I can't remember when and I recommended Todd to read Theodor Mommsen's |The Roman History, which, besides being a Nobel Prize for Literature book back in the times when such a prize really meant quality, is illuminating and very actual. All I got in reply was something to the effect that, I'll be damned if I read a three-volume-book written in German. Talk about getting one's facts straight from the most authorized sources.