Europe at War

[Todd]

But this thread is not about the US. I don't agree with Todd's argument that the US has nothing to gain from this war - it has significant stakes in its outcome

What are those significant stakes?

...is illuminating and very actual.

What does "very actual" mean?

Also, GMG is not a book club.

[71 dB]

500 million included UK. Until recently they were part of EU.

[71 dB]

First, I thought I was on your ignore list.

Second, and more important, it was not until a white European country was attacked by another kind of European country (Russia's Europeanness is poster dependent) that a thread was devoted to a war.  Far more people have died in other conflicts and there has been no similar outpouring of moral outrage on this forum.

Third, war is horrific.  All powers involved with or interested in the outcome should be pushing for a negotiated settlement to the Russo-Ukrainian War.  The US should immediately cease all financial and military support for Ukraine, publicly call for a ceasefire, and publicly offer direct negotiations with Russia, with no topic of discussion off the table.  The topics should include not only guaranteed Ukrainian neutrality, but also a diminution of NATO.

You are but I see your posts because other people who I don't ignore quote you.

[Todd]

500 million included UK. Until recently they were part of EU.

I suppose pretending things didn't happen when offering inaccurate information is one way to go.

You are but I see your posts because other people who I don't ignore quote you.

Why do you read them?

[Florestan]

What does "very actual" mean?

It means that if you read the book you would notice how facts and trends from about 2,000 years ago correspond, mutatis mutandis, to nowadays facts and trends. Apart form that, it contains the most rational and reasonable account I've ever read about how and why empires start and grow inevitably and often against their own wish --- but what do I know, I'm just a goon.

[71 dB]

Stick to it, Poju!

I try but people, even Todd,  keep quoting my posts! That said K. 287 is so nice!

[Florestan]

GMG is not a book club.

True but I should have thought that the original language a book is written on was of no consequence regarding the content.

If I may ask, what other language besides English do you read or speak?

[Madiel]

It's hilarious and bizarre how Todd keeps insisting the way to end a war in Ukraine where the Ukrainian army is fighting is to offer negotiations in which Ukraine is not a party.

Who wants to buy Todd's house? I'm putting it on the market. Realistic offers only.

[Florestan]

The US should immediately cease all financial and military support for Ukraine, publicly call for a ceasefire, and publicly offer direct negotiations with Russia, with no topic of discussion off the table.  The topics should include not only guaranteed Ukrainian neutrality, but also a diminution of NATO.

Just as I said: your views coincide to a great extent with Putin's.

[Todd]

It means that if you read the book you would notice how facts and trends from about 2,000 years ago correspond, mutatis mutandis, to nowadays facts and trends.

I am more focused on reading more recent scholarship on the same general topic, given additional scholarly work in the intervening years, improved economic analysis, etc.  Authors like Paul Kennedy and Ronald Findlay are more my speed.

If I may ask, what other language besides English do you read or speak?

This has been covered on GMG before.  You can use the search function.

Just as I said: your views coincide to a great extent with Putin's.

Not really.

[Florestan]

This has been covered on GMG before.  You can use the search function.

Yeah, yeah, blah, blah.

[Florestan]

K. 287 is so nice!

 

[Todd]

Yeah, yeah, blah, blah.

Excellent.

Since you are very learned and well-read, can you offer a brief comparison of the relative strengths and weaknesses of the outdated scholarship of Mommsen and the more recent scholarship of Findlay?

[drogulus]

Nobody asked me if I want to be born to a vassal state or somewhere else such as the United States. So I was born in Finland, a country that is ranked much higher than the United States when it comes to quality of live. At the moment we have a little more problems because our big neighbour has gone full terror state, but otherwise Finland is one of the best countries in the World to live in despite of cold dark winter. Todd could have been born anywhere in the World: Canada, Iran, South-Africa, Chile, Italy, Oman,... but he was born in the country that brainwashes its citizen to think they live in the best country in the World, but the the US reigns supreme in things such as biggest military power, most obese people and most people incarcerated per capita.

I don't mind living in a vassal state because things are so good: I have got free education, universal healthcare, one of the best quality tap water in the World, lots of beautiful nature, clean air, functioning democracy with hardly any corruption, safety, high food security,... ...even the cold dark winters aren't that bad when you get used to them. At least we have got four distinct seasons!

The US is in the process of selling F-16 fighters to Turkey and that will likely make Turkey much more willing to allow Sweden and Finland into NATO.

Finland is part of EU, which is an area of about 500 million people. Not that small.

    My understanding of "greatest country" might (heh!) differ from what other Americans mean by it. Most people hold to a subjective view and don't try to evaluate a set of criteria. That's fine, there's nothing wrong with thinking you're ideally located when you live in a rich country with democratic rights.

    But, but......what if someone wanted to try to apply a set of objective criteria, so that great meant something that has wide impact around the world? Then it might matter to the citizens of a small country next to a terror state what kind of greatness might be valuable to them.

    To Americans who wave flags and shout America is the greatest blah blah I don't have much to say. I don't care for the parochial view here any more than any other Stan. But then there's the other way of looking at it that doesn't have to do with the shouting and boasting.

[Florestan]

can you offer a brief comparison of the relative strengths and weaknesses of the outdated scholarship of Mommsen and the more recent scholarship of Findlay?

I have not read Findlay so I can't comment. On the other hand, you have not read Mommsen and you haughtily dismissed the very idea of reading him, but you signal to know for certain it's outdated with respect to the topic of how empires start and grow. That's fine with me but allow me to believe that professional historians would take a different stance.

[drogulus]

I can't speak for everybody, but I have never been okay with wars anywhere.

    I fail to see what never being OK with war has to do with the reality of war when it comes to a country, or the circumstances that make it unlikely that war should come to a small country next to a terror state.

    You know, it's possible to have feelings and thoughts at the same time. Sometimes they pull in different directions, and they bloody well should.

[drogulus]

    Empires can be hated out of existence just like wars.

    I don't bother with that. People can feel whatever they want.

    Effective war prevention interests me far more than performative righteousness. Why Putin doesn't invade Poland is of a piece with why he does invade Ukraine or I'll need a bigger boat theory. Duhh dum......

[drogulus]

     Serious people might want to explore the results of the recent CSIS China-Taiwan war games. Others (you know who you are) need not.

     1) China is likely to lose.

     2) The cost to the defenders will be staggering. At least 2 aircraft carriers will be sunk.

[Todd]

That's fine with me but allow me to believe that professional historians would take a different stance.

See my signature.

[Florestan]

See my signature.

Life is opinion --- meaning that my opinion is as good as yours or Bernard the Bear's. Fine with me.

People would rather believe than know --- meaning that you would rather believe than know. Fine with me as well.

Propaganda death ensemble --- you'd have to explain it to me, my English is not good enough to make head or tail of it.