Europe at War

[BasilValentine]

The important ]costs and benefits] can be [reduced to amounts transcribable on a financial ledgerones can.]

For those unburdened by imagination and who perennially struggle with abstract thought, I'm sure this seems true.

[Todd]

For those unburdened by imagination and who perennially struggle with abstract thought, I'm sure this seems true.

It is true that imagination allows some people to focus on fantastical notions, such as the morality of their support for this war.

[Todd]

From WaPo: CIA director holds secret meeting with Zelensky on Russia's next steps

Burns emphasized the urgency of the moment on the battlefield and acknowledged that at some point assistance would be harder to come by, the people said.

Ruh-roh.

Hey, kudos to Bezos' rag, it managed to include the tidbit that Burns warned about Ukraine, and that it's not all about Putin, which confuses some people online.

We have always been at war in West Eurasia.

[Madiel]

If you buy Todd's house from me I'm willing to negotiate with you as to whether the Beethoven collection is included in the purchase.

[drogulus]

    If a country is at war with your country you are at war, notwithstanding how peacemongerly you once were.

    Western imperialism breeds anti-Western imperialists like rats. The funny thing is how they are not anti-imperialist in the more general sense of the term. Russian and Chinese imperialism vanishes from whatever passes for analysis. Since wars require only the side that starts them, a patch is needed. Trust me, it will never come.

    I start here. You are at war when you are attacked. The "you" is on any level from the personal to the imperial. You are free to make moral judgments on cases. If you try to make cases based on a strong a priori about evil levels, you deserve the scorn you get.

[71 dB]

If you buy Todd's house from me I'm willing to negotiate with you as to whether the Beethoven collection is included in the purchase.

Does Todd own a van? If so, is it named Ludwig?

[Todd]

Does Todd own a van?

Not since 1991.

[Madiel]

Does Todd own a van? If so, is it named Ludwig?

The important thing is that, whatever Todd thinks he owns, we can make a deal about who gets it.

[prémont]

Does Todd own a van? If so, is it named Ludwig?

You know "van" is pronounced "fan".

[prémont]

Dutch

[Florestan]

Dutch

Well, according to my Dutch lady teacher of Dutch, Van is pronounced approximately as the English Vaughn, which is quite far from fan.

[Que]

Well, according to my Dutch lady teacher of Dutch, Van is pronounced approximately as the English Vaughn, which is quite far from fan.

Correct. 

[Florestan]

Correct. 

Dank je wel, mijn vriend!

[Florestan]

Well, according to my Dutch lady teacher of Dutch, Van is pronounced approximately as the English Vaug⁶, hn, which is quite far from fan.

To the best of my knowledge, the Van în van Beethoven is pronounced în English as fun.

[Madiel]

To the best of my knowledge, the Van în van Beethoven is pronounced în English as fun.

Which apparently is what some people are having.

[Florestan]

Which apparently is what some people are having.

Hah!

[71 dB]

You know "van" is pronounced "fan".

Back in the day long before Google translate when online translators really sucked, we had fun translating text from English to Finnish. One of those texts included Ludwig van Beethoven and it was "translated" into Ludwig asuntovaunu Beethoven. Yes, "asuntovaunu" is a van (caravan) in Finnish.

So, I was remembering this rather than thinking how this works only for a Finnish mind. I accidentally turned this thread into a linguistic war. My bad.

[Madiel]

Now I'm puzzling over the fact that we normally just call him Beethoven. Because for most Dutch and Flemish names I can think of we wouldn't do that. The painter isn't called Gogh. The footballer isn't called Nistelrooy. The martial arts guy with questionable acting abilities isn't called Damme.

So how did Beethoven lose his van? Do we blame the Germans?

[JBS]

Now I'm puzzling over the fact that we normally just call him Beethoven. Because for most Dutch and Flemish names I can think of we wouldn't do that. The painter isn't called Gogh. The footballer isn't called Nistelrooy. The martial arts guy with questionable acting abilities isn't called Damme.

So how did Beethoven lose his van? Do we blame the Germans?

My guess is not the Germans but Anglophones who tend to drop the von out of German surnames, and extended this to LvB because they didn't account for the Netherlands origin.

How common is it for German language texts to drop (or contrawise, keep) the von in German names?

Relatedly, isn't von in German usage an indicator of noble or knightly status, but van in Dutch/Flemish usage is not?

[Madiel]

Yes, the German speakers wrongly believed that v. Beethoven was noble because of what von connotes in German. It affected his custody battle over his nephew when they discovered he wasn't noble after all.