Europe at War

[BasilValentine]

Poorer, rural Turks have the same right to be represented, and have their interests protected, by the President of Turkey as the richer, urban Turks have. Their beliefs and values have been openly insulted in an act of open provocation which the Swedish government officially permitted being fully aware of what was going to happen. Erdogan is absolutely entitled to protest.

Oh, boo hoo. Superstitions are going to be insulted, so Erdogan should tell his constituents to grow up. I mean (to quote George Carlin), "What's the good of being a [quasi-autocrat] if every run-down schmuck with a two dollar prayer book can fuck up your plan!" 

[Todd]

Oh, boo hoo. Superstitions are going to be insulted, so Erdogan should tell his constituents to grow up. I mean (to quote George Carlin), "What's the good of being a [quasi-autocrat] if every run-down schmuck with a two dollar prayer book can fuck up your plan!" 

Self-unawareness and cultural chauvinim in one delightful post.

[71 dB]

Rasmus Paludan wasn't done yet. He burned another Quran in Denmark. 

[Madiel]

He wants to kill freedom in the World. Here in the Nordic countries freedom and human rigths are taken seriously.

What value, exactly, is there in the "freedom" to go around deliberately pissing people off by burning sacred texts?

I guess the Taliban had the freedom to blow up the Buddhas of Bamiyan by that logic.

[Madiel]

Oh, boo hoo. Superstitions are going to be insulted, so Erdogan should tell his constituents to grow up. I mean (to quote George Carlin), "What's the good of being a [quasi-autocrat] if every run-down schmuck with a two dollar prayer book can fuck up your plan!" 

Ha. You just watch how some Americans react if you do something to their flag, or even fail to get involved in pledges of allegiance and the like.

EDIT: Or don't basically worship veterans. Every culture has its "superstitions".

[LKB]

Yeah, that's what I'd expect to hear from someone who fucks puppies.

That seems somewhat unfair, puppies are generally more discriminating.

[LKB]

Ha. You just watch how some Americans react if you do something to their flag, or even fail to get involved in pledges of allegiance and the like.

EDIT: Or don't basically worship veterans. Every culture has its "superstitions".

Most American civilians and non- citizens are clueless regarding the sacrifices made by those in the American uniform.

I am not clueless, so when l see a trooper, sailor or airman on his/her own l'll usually try to interact, ask them where they're from, where their unit is etc. If there's time and l can afford it that day, I'll buy their lunch or Starbucks or whatever.

Military people appreciate it when a stranger goes out of their way to do this sort of thing. Try it some time. 

[Madiel]

Most American civilians and non- citizens are clueless regarding the sacrifices made by those in the American uniform.

I am not clueless, so when l see a trooper, sailor or airman on his/her own l'll usually try to interact, ask them where they're from, where their unit is etc. If there's time and l can afford it that day, I'll buy their lunch or Starbucks or whatever.

Military people appreciate it when a stranger goes out of their way to do this sort of thing. Try it some time. 

While I don't doubt the sacrifices, there are some very strange and over-the-top manifestations of this appreciation at times. Which leads to things like people trying to impersonate military personnel to get all the kickbacks. As far as I'm aware this phenomenon of impersonation is unknown over here. There's no lack of respect for the military here, but it doesn't get to the point where people want to fake being in the military to get adulation. Or free lunches.

[LKB]

While I don't doubt the sacrifices, there are some very strange and over-the-top manifestations of this appreciation at times. Which leads to things like people trying to impersonate military personnel to get all the kickbacks. As far as I'm aware this phenomenon of impersonation is unknown over here. There's no lack of respect for the military here, but it doesn't get to the point where people want to fake being in the military to get adulation. Or free lunches.

There is a name for this phenomenon:

Stolen Valor.

You can find uploads on YouTube concerning some of the people who've perpetrated this particular sort of fraud. I find them to be deeply pathetic, more than anything else.

[Que]

Paludan specifically asked for a permit from the Swedish authorities to stage a protest in front of the Turkish Embassy --- which was granted to him. The Swedish government can't even pretend they could not have known what he was going to do, his record of such provocations is long and public.

Once more it is clear that the interest of the Western far right and Putin are aligned:

Burning of Qur'an in Stockholm funded by journalist with Kremlin ties

(Guardian)

Looks like the Swedish government has made their choices: the rights of one individual, and not a very sane one at that, are above the interest of the nation as a whole as defined by the very same government. Now they will have to live with the consequences of their choice. Finland should really seek a quick dissociation of their accession to NATO from that of Sweden.

It was certainly not a clever move by the Swedes to allow this, but if those are the rules? Personally I'm not to so keen of expressions or acts of hate under the guise of free speech. But is Erdogan going to punish them for being a free and open society? Obviously... as if Turkey doesn't have its extremists and stuff never gets burnt on Turkish streets...

I read that Finland is considering to leave the matter be until after the Turkish elections. That seems like a very smart idea. Meanwhile Erdoğan will have other matters to worry about, like the Turkish economy.

[LKB]

The Swedes have stupidly shot themselves in the foot, needlessly giving Erdoğan even more excuses to stall Sweden's admission into NATO.

That being said, the fact is Erdoğan would have continued stalling in any event. As long as both Putin and himself remain in power, chances of Sweden being admitted into the Alliance will remain zero. If Sweden could give him the Moon with all the trimmings, it would make no difference.

[71 dB]

What value, exactly, is there in the "freedom" to go around deliberately pissing people off by burning sacred texts?

I guess the Taliban had the freedom to blow up the Buddhas of Bamiyan by that logic.

There is hardly any value of it, nor is it indended that people do it. It is a consequence of freedom.
Buddhas of Bamiyan were not property of Taliban. The Holy books are property of those who burn them.

[71 dB]

I read that Finland is considering to leave the matter be until after the Turkish elections. That seems like a very smart idea. Meanwhile Erdoğan will have other matters to worry about, like the Turkish economy.

What else can we do? At this point Turkey isn't even willing to negotiate. I'm hoping we at least get the ratifications from Hungrary and then we can tackle the big problem.

[Que]

What else can we do? At this point Turkey isn't even willing to negotiate. I'm hoping we at least get the ratifications from Hungrary and then we can tackle the big problem.

Don't worry! At some point in time Erdoğan will need the West more than vice versa. Untill then the Russian army is in no condition to pose any serious threat, thanks to the Ukrainians.

[Madiel]

The Holy books are property of those who burn them.

Incorrect. The copies of those books are. This does not provide ownership of the contents.

[Florestan]

Rasmus Paludan wasn't done yet. He burned another Quran in Denmark. 

The guy is completely nuts. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up being short/stabbed to death by a fanatical Muslim.

[Florestan]

Whatever we might think of Erdogan in general, his demands with respect to Sweden and Finland are not unreasonable. EU has put PKK on the list of terrorist organizations, Sweden and Finland are EU members, therefore they should stop being safe havens for PKK and put an end to their activity on Swedish and Finnish territory. I don't see anything objectionable in that.

[71 dB]

Incorrect. The copies of those books are. This does not provide ownership of the contents.

Are you saying I am not allowed to destroy my STAR WARS blu-rays, because Disney owns the copyrights? 

[71 dB]

Whatever we might think of Erdogan in general, his demands with respect to Sweden and Finland are not unreasonable. EU has put PKK on the list of terrorist organizations, Sweden and Finland are EU members, therefore they should stop being safe havens for PKK and put an end to their activity on Swedish and Finnish territory. I don't see anything objectionable in that.

I know almost nothing about this issue. Is every single kurd a member of PKK? Does being a kurd mean you are automatically a terrorist in the US and EU? Are Sweden and Finland really safe havens  for PKK? What activity does PKK have in Sweden and Finland? I am totally unaware of any such activity in Finland.

Most of all, has Turkey expressed similar demands to every other NATO country it has ratified?

[Fëanor]

Poorer, rural Turks have the same right to be represented, and have their interests protected, by the President of Turkey as the richer, urban Turks have. Their beliefs and values have been openly insulted in an act of open provocation which the Swedish government officially permitted being fully aware of what was going to happen. Erdogan is absolutely entitled to protest.

BTW, I wasn't singling out rural Turks versus rural people in general.  Pretty much anywhere in the world rural folks are more conservative and Right-leaning. Of course they have the right to have their views represented by elected politicians.

Whether rural folks' actual interests are best served by the politicians they elect is another matter ... but then that's a problem we all have.