Europe at War

[Todd]

From AP: US accuses Russia of endangering nuclear arms control treaty

Russia's refusal to facilitate inspection activities prevents the United States from exercising important rights under the treaty and threatens the viability of U.S.-Russian nuclear arms control

You can't make this stuff up.

[prémont]

He acts like a troll in this thread, but his posts are much much better in other threads. I am amazed how good posts he makes in the audio gear thread for example.

Yes, and in the Beethoven threads eg. But putting him on my ignore list frees me from reading his post in this very "war" thread, while I can easily read his post in the music threads - if I'm in the mood for it. 

[Fëanor]

What precisely does it {the USA} have to gain and what does it stand to lose?

Why do I dignify this with an answer?

But OK.  On the upside, the USA gains the respect of European NATO members by supporting Ukraine against Russia -- which they hate and fear. The downside would be an eastern Europe dominated by Russia generally working to undermine American world-wide status.

European countries, (being smarter or at lease more honest than you), understand that Putin's real & ultimate ambition is Russian domination of eastern Europe and the destruction of the EU.

[Florestan]

the destruction of the EU.

Actually, this is a goal that Todd heartily supports. He repeatedly stated that US should do everything in their power to destroy EU, going as far as to assert that the US might even have to go to war with EU. I'm not making this stuff up, he did say all that.

[prémont]

Actually, this is a goal that Todd heartily supports. He repeatedly stated that US should do everything in their power to destroy EU, going as far as to assert that the US might even have to go to war with EU. I'm not making this stuff up, he did say all that.

Yes, he actually did. But what's the point of tormenting yourself with his rubbish all the time?

[Madiel]

Unfortunately putting him on ignore would mean missing his posts in the New Releases and other music threads.

I open his posts on New Releases. You can always open individual posts.

[Todd]

On the upside, the USA gains the respect of European NATO members by supporting Ukraine against Russia -- which they hate and fear. The downside would be an eastern Europe dominated by Russia generally working to undermine American world-wide status.

These are entirely nebulous and therefore meaningless answers.  I am seeking concrete benefits and costs.  Concrete benefits would be primarily economic in nature.  Additionally, observable and quantifiable enhancements to US security, manifested perhaps in the ability of the US to reduce its military deployments in Europe by X number of servicemembers could also be considered meaningful.  Costs would include additional security commitments, additional troop deployments, and an increased risk of military confrontation for countries that do not present any potential benefits to the US.  North Macedonia offers a perfect example of a country that imposes costs and no benefits for the US.

Russia is in long-term decline.  It cannot even conquer Ukraine, with which it shares a long border.  Its naval and air force capabilities are severely hampered compared to even the waning days of the USSR.  Russia cannot undermine the US everywhere all the time except via various non-military means - eg, ever fearsome hacking.  It would be entirely possible to counter such dastardly potential Russian actions with all manner of non-military policies, such as development aid without the stifling conditions imposed by the IMF and World Bank, trade status enhancement, etc. 

US foreign policy really ought not to be based on emotions (eg, fear, hatred) of the leaders of lesser countries.

European countries, (being smarter or at lease more honest than you), understand that Putin's real & ultimate ambition is Russian domination of eastern Europe and the destruction of the EU.

Countries are political entities, not people, so they cannot be smart or honest.  They may however lease things.

Actually, this is a goal that Todd heartily supports. He repeatedly stated that US should do everything in their power to destroy EU, going as far as to assert that the US might even have to go to war with EU. I'm not making this stuff up, he did say all that.

Yes, I did write that, and yes, I do heartily support policies that would lead to the destruction of the EU.  I would be fully satisfied with rendering it as ineffectual as the UN.  Hobbling a ragtag entity like the EU would be easier.  If war becomes necessary, it becomes necessary.  I see that as an edge case, though. 

[drogulus]

    It doesn't matter how proxyish a war is for Ukraine. They want support and the words used to describe it aren't important. No wordplay can cause the Ukes to suddenly realize they aren't really defending their country but are only really defending the rest of Europe. Of course Zelensky has said that defending themselves defends others. All of Europe knows this.

    The deception is the implication the wider consequences negate the immediate ones. By clever wordplay Ukraine is not really defending itself at all. It can't be something if it's also something else.

   

[Karl Henning]

You can always open individual posts.

Just so.

[BasilValentine]

No, it's a proxy war between the US and Russia. 

People like simple, reductive answers to complicated questions because people are, in general, intellectually lazy.   

[Todd]

People like simple, reductive answers to complicated questions because people are, in general, intellectually lazy.   

True.  That's why some people like to pretend that it is a war between Russia and Ukraine, or that the US played no role in establishing the conditions that led to war.

[Madiel]

True.  That's why some people like to pretend that it is a war between Russia and Ukraine.

No, it's just a special operation within Russia.

Pretend.

Moron.

Edit: Actually, not so much moron as Ukraine denialist. You don't believe Ukraine is a real country, which is why you can continue asserting Ukraine is not at war.

As a person who's known a few people of Ukrainian descent over the years, I wonder if you realise just how profoundly insulting you're being.

[Madiel]

He acts like a troll in this thread, but his posts are much much better in other threads. I am amazed how good posts he makes in the audio gear thread for example.

I'm beginning to get to the position of thinking this is a bit like saying that Hitler made some nice paintings and was a very engaging conversationalist when he wasn't wreaking havoc.

Yes I'm going with Godwin's law. Given that Todd reads nothing I say I don't have to care about that. He's not my audience. Everyone else here is.

Todd says things on this thread that are so utterly abhorrent that I'm finding it harder and harder to see him as actually adding value to the forum. Maybe I'm not sufficiently obsessed with documenting the latest 43 Beethoven cycles or what the record companies in East Asia are releasing to see the value, but what I see is a man who has consistently denied the agency of an entire country that is fighting for its existence, and regularly casts doubt on whether the country exists not just whether it has the right to continue existing.

Why are we tolerating this? Why are we continuing to accept as a member a man who advocates the erasure of an ethnic identity?

Go back over this thread and see what it takes for him to mention Ukraine as anything other than a place where Russia and USA/the West are having a battle. The Ukrainian people barely get mentioned.

I've known Ukrainian people. The mother of my best friend in primary school was Ukrainian. I work with a Ukrainian. These people fucking hate Russia, precisely because Russia denies the existence of Ukrainian identity.

And Todd is persistently exhibiting the same denial here. And I'm getting to the point where I'm pretty sick of the forum tolerating it.

[71 dB]

Why are we tolerating this? Why are we continuing to accept as a member a man who advocates the erasure of an ethnic identity?

It is not for me to decide who we tolerate here. I am not the admin. All I can do is choose how much I ignore Todd's posts. I am not responsible of Todd's abhorrent posts, am I?

[Todd]

It is a sign of the effectiveness of pro-war propaganda and the eager willingness of some people to passionately believe it that some people confuse my advocacy of the US immediately using its full power to pursue a negotiated settlement with Russia to bring a swift end to this war with other especially nefarious things. 

Ending the war is the moral thing to do; prolonging the war is the immoral thing to do.

[Madiel]

It is a sign of the effectiveness of pro-war propaganda and the eager willingness of some people to passionately believe it that some people confuse my advocacy of the US immediately using its full power to pursue a negotiated settlement with Russia to bring a swift end to this war with other especially nefarious things. 

Ending the war is the moral thing to do; prolonging the war is the immoral thing to do.

And again, the country of Ukraine is absent from this negotiation.

Every fucking time.  While saying he's not doing the especially nefarious thing of erasing Ukrainian identity, he yet again proposes a negotiation where the country that's being invaded is not mentioned as a party to the negotiations.

[Madiel]

It is not for me to decide who we tolerate here. I am not the admin. All I can do is choose how much I ignore Todd's posts. I am not responsible of Todd's abhorrent posts, am I?

The ultimate decision is not yours. Expressing a view, though, is also up to you.

[Madiel]

There's an expression which I'm not sure has global rather than Australian currency, but here it is:

The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

I'm not walking past. I'm standing here and I'm pointing it out. It's not okay to constantly erase Ukraine from the map.

[Karl Henning]

Todd says things on this thread that are so utterly abhorrent that I'm finding it harder and harder to see him as actually adding value to the forum.

Hence, while one can elect to read a post by a user one has on Ignore, I never do in his case.

[Karl Henning]

It's not okay to constantly erase Ukraine from the map.

Not okay, and well beyond a personal tic.