Schoenberg's Style and Idea Discussion

[DavidW]

It's here if you still want it

https://monoskop.org/images/8/84/Schoenberg_Arnold_Style_and_Idea.pdf

That has to be the most passionate endorsement of Mahler that I have ever read.  Even Barry from the Mahler forum would be like calm down Arnold, he's not THAT great!

Edit: Hi all we went way off topic on Brahms so I moved the discussion to another thread.

[Luke]

Interesting that he takes the opening of Bruckner 7 as an example, too, when we're told he had no respect for him.

[Florestan]

That has to be the most passionate endorsement of Mahler that I have ever read.  Even Barry from the Mahler forum would be like calm down Arnold, he's not THAT great!

I have just read the first sentence of that link and I am already in irreconcilable disagreement with Mr. Schoenberg. 

Judge for yourself:

THERE ARE relatively few people who are capable of understanding, purely in terms of music, what music has to say

If that were true, then we should better shut down GMG altogether right now --- because relatively few of us are capable of understanding, purely in terms of music, what music has to say --- and just who are those few of us, it's impossible to decide.

But --- given that the selfsame Schoenberg proclaimed that "If it's art then it's not for everybody, and if it's for everybody then it's not art" --- we should just ignore such pretentious, elitist, pseudo-intellectual twaddle and go on talking about our favorite music in our favorite performances.

[Spotted Horses]

I'm anticipating that after listening to the Amadeus in the three quartets I will revisit with something else. From memory I have, on the virtual shelves, Alban Berg Quartet, Quartetto Italiano, Prazak, Takacs (Decca and Hyperion) and Verdi Quartet.

[Karl Henning]

It's here if you still want it

https://monoskop.org/images/8/84/Schoenberg_Arnold_Style_and_Idea.pdf

Thanks! (My copy is on some shelf or other ....

[Florestan]

More --- I can't help it.

in the other arts the material-subject, the represented object, automatically presents itself to the limited power of comprehension of the intellectually mediocre.

Why, of course, Herr Dr. Schoenberg! Anyone who is not ecstatic, nor does wax poetic, about your own music or the music you approve of, must perforce be intellectually mediocre and have limited power of comprehension...

Non si da follia maggiore!

[Florestan]

And more --- I can't help it.

The capacity of pure perception is extremely rare and only to be met with in men of high calibre.

Please define pure perception and men of high calibre. I greatly suspect circular reasoning.

No, really, Schoenberg's music should be divorced from his writings which are unqualified balderdash.

[Madiel]

If that were true, then we should better shut down GMG altogether right now --- because relatively few of us are capable of understanding, purely in terms of music, what music has to say --- and just who are those few of us, it's impossible to decide.

Those who know, know... 

But really, you could have gone with the theory that GMG is a haven for the elite given there are billions of other folk who aren't on GMG.

[Mandryka]

And more --- I can't help it.

Please define pure perception and men of high calibre. I greatly suspect circular reasoning.

I'm sure doctorates are written about this. He was a mystic I think, Swedenborg.

[Florestan]

GMG is a haven for the elite given there are billions of other folk who aren't on GMG.

Well, I could make the case for myself being the elite of GMG, given that very few GMGers, if any at all, know who Raven is. 

[Florestan]

I'm sure doctorates are written about this. He was a mystic I think, Swedenborg.

Give me Mozart and Rossini over Swedenborg any day and night.

I abhor elitism, be it musical, literary or religious.

[Florestan]

I'm sure doctorates are written about this

Why, of course --- doctorates are written about every shit one can twist their minds about. The world is full of Ph. D. 's --- it's common sense that's conspicuously missing... 

[Karl Henning]

And more --- I can't help it.
[snip]

No, really, Schoenberg's music should be divorced from his writings which are unqualified balderdash.[/snip]

It looks like you're just reading to find fault. That's got to be a waste of your time, let alone the time of those reading your setting Schoenberg up as a whipping boy. It's also a ridiculous derailment of the Brahms thread.

From the "Brahms the Progressive" essay: Mysteries conceal a truth, but direct curiosity to unveil it.

[Madiel]

Well, I could make the case for myself being the elite of GMG, given that very few GMGers, if any at all, know who Raven is. 

There are so many options.

Anyway, I don't particularly want to extend the philosophical discussion, other than to say there are different kinds of 'elitism' and the ones that you're railing against might not even be the ones that Schoenberg had in mind. But I don't think everyone's capacity to grasp music is equal. How much of that is acquired knowledge and training, and how much of that is just innate, it's hard to say. But I can certainly think of a couple of experiences of people just not hearing things.

[Florestan]

It looks like you're just reading to find fault. [/i].

My dear Karl, it's not my fault that Schoenberg stated his elitism in plain German English translation.

Do you really and sincerely agree with "THERE ARE relatively few people who are capable of understanding, purely in terms of music, what music has to say"?

Do you really and sincerely agree with "If it's art then it's not for everybody, and if it's for everybody then it's not art"?

[Luke]

But I can certainly think of a couple of experiences of people just not hearing things.

E.g. there are people who think the Brahms string quartets are too hard-driven/austere/thickly-scored, if you can believe it!

[Florestan]

There are so many options.

None of which is mine. 

[Karl Henning]

Do you really and sincerely agree with "If it's art then it's not for everybody, and if it's for everybody then it's not art"?

As a flat statement, I do not. Disagreement with it as a flat statement probably doesn't make it absolute balderdash. Underneath it is something which Cyril Connelly expressed thus: I'd rather write for myself and not have a public, than write for the public and not have a self.

[Florestan]

don't think everyone's capacity to grasp music is equal.

Do you imply that some people are more likely to grasp "classical music" than others?

[Karl Henning]

Anyway, I don't particularly want to extend the philosophical discussion, other than to say there are different kinds of 'elitism' and the ones that you're railing against might not even be the ones that Schoenberg had in mind. But I don't think everyone's capacity to grasp music is equal. How much of that is acquired knowledge and training, and how much of that is just innate, it's hard to say. But I can certainly think of a couple of experiences of people just not hearing things.

Good.