Johannes Brahms (1833-1897)

[Brian]

Abbado/Berlin is one of the very best cycles ever, I think, and most would agree his handling of the gorgeous Berlin sound is a little more textured and varied than Karajan.

I'm not sure about recommended HIP Brahms. There is choice among modern instrument chamber orchestra Brahms (like Mackerras) and, but the period instrument choices I've heard of are few and inconsistent. Pretty much just Gardiner. Hopefully someone else can help.

Also Bruno Walter was born in Brahms' era, was 21 when Brahms died, I believe saw Brahms live, and recorded the cycle twice in performances that we would have to consider historically informed. They are often much faster than the modern norm, but Edward Gardner on Chandos is rather similar.

Edit: Just for fun, looked up composers who died when I was 21. Gorecki.

[San Antone]

In addition to Gardiner, there's these two:

Swedish Chamber Orchestra, Thomas Dausgaard

Helsingborg Symphony Orchestra, Andrew Manze

[Mandryka]

Is there any good HIP Brahms cycle?

Zehetmair. HIP isn't just a question of instruments, it's a question of performance and scale, and Zehetmair has taken more trouble than anyone else to look at this question.

By the way, have you heard Harnoncourt? I'm not saying it's HIP, but I am saying it's worth a listen.

Second question, what's a good Brahms cycle with a German or Austrian orchestra? I'm well-represented on American and British orchestras, and I'm just not crazy about Karajan's Brahms.

Kempe BPO. For a long time I would have said that this is my favourite cycle, all the expressiveness of Furtwangler combined with all the energy of Toscanini.

Barbirolli VPO. There's quite a bit of discussion about this one somewhere on this site, I found the pastoral lyrical vision intriguing - about 10 years ago.

[DavidW]

For PI there is Gardiner as Brian mentioned.  Also Norrington/London Classical Players.  That is all I know of.

[DavidW]

In addition to Gardiner, there's these two:

Swedish Chamber Orchestra, Thomas Dausgaard

Helsingborg Symphony Orchestra, Andrew Manze

Both of those along with Zehetmair are all chamber orchestras performing on modern instruments. Vers la flamme wanted to hear original instruments so they're kind of out of the question.

[DavidW]

I think I might have found the balance (some period instruments, better reviewed performance).  I'll have to listen soonish. 

From the Gramophone review:

Robin Ticciati enumerates in his booklet note are nearly identical to those laid out in Mackerras's, including the deployment of Viennese horns and small-bore trombones, and the same configuration of 34 strings who play with 'the notion of vibrato as ornament'.

I've heard Mackerras before but didn't strike me as being particularly HIP.  But apparently Ticciati goes beyond.  Has anyone listened to this recording?

[Jo498]

There are recordings by musicians and conductors who are at most one intermediate removed from Brahms, i.e. they studied or played with musicians who were close friends or associates of Brahms, and generally grew up in late 19th century Austrogerman/central European musical culture. Of course the second point is true of almost every conductor born before 1900 in these regions, and they obviously show a wide range of interpretative styles.
I admittedly have heard only the serenades (and Requiem) in so-called HIP versions (and symphonies 3+4 with Harnoncourt) and I think I liked the serenades (Spering) but I am in general not at all convinced that a reconstruction that sounds not much like the recordings of e.g. Weingartner or Busch or others with credible connections to actual Brahms performance practice has plausible claims to authenticity.
(Not sure what Harnoncourt claims, but his slow and soft Brahms symphonies might be unique but I doubt anyone would believe them to be more like 1890s or early 1900s Brahms performances.)

[Madiel]

Chailly's cycle, which I have and like, is also sometimes described as adopting some HIP practices with modern instruments.

Opinions on it seem to be a bit divided (Hurwitz is not a fan) but as I said I like it.

[Karl Henning]

Chailly's cycle, which I have and like, is also sometimes described as adopting some HIP practices with modern instruments

Interesting. I like practically everything I've heard Chailly do (Hindemith, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Varèse) On one hand, those names do not immediately suggest a sympathy with Brahms, perhaps. On t'other, they suggest that his approach to Brahms will not be sentimentalist.

[Mandryka]

There are recordings by musicians and conductors who are at most one intermediate removed from Brahms, i.e. they studied or played with musicians who were close friends or associates of Brahms, and generally grew up in late 19th century Austrogerman/central European musical culture. Of course the second point is true of almost every conductor born before 1900 in these regions, and they obviously show a wide range of interpretative styles.
I admittedly have heard only the serenades (and Requiem) in so-called HIP versions (and symphonies 3+4 with Harnoncourt) and I think I liked the serenades (Spering) but I am in general not at all convinced that a reconstruction that sounds not much like the recordings of e.g. Weingartner or Busch or others with credible connections to actual Brahms performance practice has plausible claims to authenticity.
(Not sure what Harnoncourt claims, but his slow and soft Brahms symphonies might be unique but I doubt anyone would believe them to be more like 1890s or early 1900s Brahms performances.)

This is why Zehetmair is so important.  I really don't like it, by the way, but that's neither here nor there.

[Herman]

Second question, what's a good Brahms cycle with a German or Austrian orchestra? I'm well-represented on American and British orchestras, and I'm just not crazy about Karajan's Brahms.

Kubelik BRSO on Orfeo

[Daverz]

Is there any good HIP Brahms cycle?

Not HIP orchestras, but I would suggest sampling Dausgaard's recordings with the Swedish Chamber Orchestra or Mackerras with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra.

Second question, what's a good Brahms cycle with a German or Austrian orchestra? I'm well-represented on American and British orchestras, and I'm just not crazy about Karajan's Brahms.

Kurt Sanderling with the Staatskapelle Dresden.

[Jo498]

Kurt Sanderling with the Staatskapelle Dresden.

Yes. I recently listened to 2+3 from this; I had remembered them, especially #3 as a bit "too soft/slow" but it's still very good and 2 is excellent and the sound is certainly wonderful. It was better than I remembered and while I didn't take the time to listen to 1+4 in my recollection they are even better.

[Spotted Horses]

Barbirolli VPO. There's quite a bit of discussion about this one somewhere on this site, I found the pastoral lyrical vision intriguing - about 10 years ago.

I like this set a lot. Another great favorite for Austrian/German orchestra is Kertesz/WPO, which has an astonishingly low profile given how exquisite it is. Bohm/WPO on DG is also a worthy choice.

[Daverz]

I like this set a lot. Another great favorite for Austrian/German orchestra is Kertesz/WPO, which has an astonishingly low profile given how exquisite it is. Bohm/WPO on DG is also a worthy choice.

The Kertesz set is still available on Eloquence.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8024469--brahms-symphonies-nos-1-4-serenades-nos-1-2-haydn-variations

There's also Levine in Vienna and Abbado in Berlin.

[vers la flamme]

Very tempted to get the Barbirolli/Vienna which was just rereleased.

[Spotted Horses]

Very tempted to get the Barbirolli/Vienna which was just rereleased.

That's a beautiful set. (The Piano Concerti with Barenboim are with the Philharmonia Orchestra, if memory serves, also excellent) but the Symphonies and Overtures are WPO.

I might be tempted to say I prefer Kertesz by a small margin. But Barbirolli brings a welcome lyricism to the music.

[Brahmsian]

Cracked open the 11 disc Brahms DG chamber music box set, starting off with the 1st and 2nd piano trios.  Here is the original cover of the recording.  Pretty good performances!

[lordlance]

I know there's dozens of great recordings of the Violin Concerto but I found what I believe is a sleeper hit -



Really great orchestral playing brought out by Sawallisch. Not a name that gets taken up except for his Bruckner and Strauss Operas but good stuff.

[Spotted Horses]

Cracked open the 11 disc Brahms DG chamber music box set, starting off with the 1st and 2nd piano trios.  Here is the original cover of the recording.  Pretty good performances!

Interesting that, as far as I know, they didn't do the third Piano Trio. I recently listened to the second trio first by the Beaux Arts Trio (sort of uninspiring) then Argelich, Capucon^2, which was presented in a more dramatic and satisfying fashion. Utterly magnificent music.