The Audiophile Debate

[Florestan]

Perfect. I assume you can provide measurements showing that there is no difference between the way your thumb and any other thumb talks?

I must confess that when I point my right thumb upwards its voice is noticeably different from its voice when I point it downwards.

[Florestan]

Yes, Berkeley said to be is to be perceived. That statement cannot be refuted.

So, according to Berkeley and you, an isolated, uninhabited Pacific island did not exist before it was first seen by somebody, and that somebody created it on the spot by the very act of seeing it.

[ritter]

This thread is really going off-topic, ladies and gentlemen!

[Roasted Swan]

I must confess that when I point my right thumb upwards its voice is noticeably different from its voice when I point it downwards.

On a slight tangent my favourite ever superhero was Mr Invisible from the great film "Mystery Men".  The 'problem' with his super-power was that he was only invisible when people were NOT looking at him. 

My concern Florestan is that we have no proof your thumb exists at all except when you are talking to it.  I think you should make your thumb an active poster on this forum so then at least we might get some sense of it actually existing let alone being sentient in its own right.

[AnotherSpin]

So, according to Berkeley and you, an isolated, uninhabited Pacific island did not exist before it was first seen by somebody, and that somebody created it on the spot by the very act of seeing it.

I'm not trying to simulate Berkeley, whose texts I know very little about. The reference to him came up after Todd's post above.

I'm saying that what is not in my knowing does not exist for me. Does it exist beyond my knowing is irrelevant for me. I have nothing to do with the objects beyond my knowing, hence no intertest whatsoever. Belief in a non-perceivable objects is pretty funny. There's a lot out there in the realm of the unperceivable. Islands, unicorns, ghosts, belief in the victory of communism, and a lot of other things, no sane limits.

But, here is even more important thing. I'll repeat what I've already said above. I may know or not know this or that object, including an island in the Pacific, or unicorn, or some firm measurements of USB cables. In any case each of the objects is not constant in my knowing, they come, stay for a moment, and go, thus not permanent, thus not real. Whereas knowing of objects is permanent and stays without slightest change. This is the only reality available to me, my knowing = my self.

[Florestan]

On a slight tangent my favourite ever superhero was Mr Invisible from the great film "Mystery Men".  The 'problem' with his super-power was that he was only invisible when people were NOT looking at him.

 

My concern Florestan is that we have no proof your thumb exists at all except when you are talking to it.  I think you should make your thumb an active poster on this forum so then at least we might get some sense of it actually existing let alone being sentient in its own right.

I am Florestan's right thumb. I dropped by just to let you all know that I do exist and am very conscious of my own self. Everything else is smoke.

[Roasted Swan]

I am Florestan's right thumb. I dropped by just to let you all know that I do exist and am very conscious of my own self. Everything else is smoke.

is that an example of a thumb "thumbing its nose" at someone?  Do thumbs have noses?  So many existential questions.

[Florestan]

I'm saying that what is not in my knowing does not exist for me.

To call this "philosophy" teenager-ish would be an insult to teenagers.

This is the only reality available to me, my knowing = my self.

Okay, here's some food for your thought.

I don't know the name of the person who activated the missile which destroyed the Odessa Cathedral, nor have I ever seen him nor will I ever see him --- therefore, he doesn't exist. But what doesn't exist cannot act, so there was no missile at all. Moreover, I had never heard about the Odessa Cathedral nor had I seen it --- therefore, it didn't exist. But what doesn't exist cannot be destroyed. Ergo, the destruction of the Odessa Cathedral is a fake news, there was no missile to begin with, and there was nothing to destroy.

[Brian]

I am Florestan's right thumb. I dropped by just to let you all know that I do exist and am very conscious of my own self. Everything else is smoke.

If you typed this with more than one finger, it's fake news 

[Florestan]

Do thumbs have noses? 

One could see the whole body as an appendix of the thumb, in which case they do have noses. (Florestan)

+ 1. (Florestan's thumb)

[Florestan]

If you typed this with more than one finger, it's fake news 

Florestan typed that with just two fingers: his right index and his left middle finger, but it's me, his right thumb, that ordered and supervised the whole thing.   

[Roasted Swan]

One could see the whole body as an appendix of the thumb, in which case they do have noses. (Florestan)

+ 1. (Florestan's thumb)

thumbs up from me

[Irons]

thumbs up from me

Down from me. Thread has got silly.

[Roasted Swan]

Down from me. Thread has got silly.

shocking!

[AnotherSpin]

To call this "philosophy" teenager-ish would be an insult to teenagers.

Okay, here's some food for your thought.

I don't know the name of the person who activated the missile which destroyed the Odessa Cathedral, nor have I ever seen him nor will I ever see him --- therefore, he doesn't exist. But what doesn't exist cannot act, so there was no missile at all. Moreover, I had never heard about the Odessa Cathedral nor had I seen it --- therefore, it didn't exist. But what doesn't exist cannot be destroyed. Ergo, the destruction of the Odessa Cathedral is a fake news, there was no missile to begin with, and there was nothing to destroy.

Everything you mentioned exists in your mind as a thought, not even as an object. It comes, stays for some time and leaves. Just like everything else in the apparent world. Things come and go, but you as a perceiving subject remain. The same is true of any other human being. I saw the damaged cathedral a couple of days ago with my own eyes. But that doesn't mean it will stay in my knowing forever. This object disappeared after a minute or two, the thought began to fade soon after, being displaced by other thoughts. And that's a good thing.

P.S.: And, there's no food for thought here. You don't have to think to know that you are. Moreover, the mind does everything it can to obscure the simple and undeniable truth of your existence.

[San Antone]

Everything you mentioned exists in your mind as a thought, not even as an object. It comes, stays for some time and leaves. Just like everything else in the apparent world. Things come and go, but you as a perceiving subject remain. The same is true of any other human being. I saw the damaged cathedral a couple of days ago with my own eyes. But that doesn't mean it will stay in my knowing forever. This object disappeared after a minute or two, the thought began to fade soon after, being displaced by other thoughts. And that's a good thing.

P.S.: And, there's no food for thought here. You don't have to think to know that you are. Moreover, the mind does everything it can to obscure the simple and undeniable truth of your existence.

I am not audiophile since I do not obsess about audio quality.  As long as it is decent, I'm okay.  But I do recognize that audio reproduction has measurable attributes.  And for those who know how to interpret the numbers, this can be an objective guide to comparing audio equipment (discounting the room itself). 

So, your arguments strike me as specious.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Everything you mentioned exists in your mind as a thought, not even as an object. It comes, stays for some time and leaves. Just like everything else in the apparent world. Things come and go, but you as a perceiving subject remain. The same is true of any other human being. I saw the damaged cathedral a couple of days ago with my own eyes. But that doesn't mean it will stay in my knowing forever. This object disappeared after a minute or two, the thought began to fade soon after, being displaced by other thoughts. And that's a good thing.

P.S.: And, there's no food for thought here. You don't have to think to know that you are. Moreover, the mind does everything it can to obscure the simple and undeniable truth of your existence.

Personally, I'd love to hear more about what you like listening to--particularly in terms of classical music--in the appropriate threads.  Also, things like favorite *Ukrainian composers, musicians, conductors.  Maybe starting a thread in "The Diner" about what has life been like for you, family, friends, etc. in Ukraine.  How are you surviving?  Day to day problems (as you've had to deal with them personally or from people that you know well or news reports) in getting food, power, internet, heat, etc.

*I know that someone started a thread on Ukrainian composers already, so it would be quite interesting to hear your thoughts about them there--and I'm sure that you probably can add others not mentioned there. 

Best wishes,

PD

[AnotherSpin]

So, your arguments strike me as specious.

That's perfectly fine. If the measurements are to your advantage, so be it.  There is no problem for me in someone assessing the difference between audio components in a different way than I do. I don't even find it strange when someone insists that there is no difference between components, like cables for example. That's not true for me, but I'm not going to lose sleep over someone disagreeing with me. 

[Bachtoven]

Where are the "insights"? All I see are chimpanzees flinging their feces at each other.

[AnotherSpin]

Personally, I'd love to hear more about what you like listening to--particularly in terms of classical music--in the appropriate threads.  Also, things like favorite *Ukrainian composers, musicians, conductors.  Maybe starting a thread in "The Diner" about what has life been like for you, family, friends, etc. in Ukraine.  How are you surviving?  Day to day problems (as you've had to deal with them personally or from people that you know well or news reports) in getting food, power, internet, heat, etc.

*I know that someone started a thread on Ukrainian composers already, so it would be quite interesting to hear your thoughts about them there--and I'm sure that you probably can add others not mentioned there. 

Best wishes,

PD

Thank you.

I don't really feel like writing about my problems or the problems of my loved ones. I can say that I do not see my life as "survival". No matter how much external circumstances change, the essential nature of people remains unchanged always. We live as we always have. We buy groceries, cook meals, take care of the elderly and try to help the little ones grow up.

I don't know Ukrainian composers' very well. I have been listening to Valentin Silvestrov for years, but this is most likely an exception. Of his music, my favourite is Silent Songs cycle.

As a newcomer to the forum I don't write much about what I listen to, maybe I will write more. But I'm unlikely to surprise anyone, I listen to what many listen to. Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert. A lot of jazz, modern, not traditional. On the unusual side, I've been loving Grateful Dead since the '70s.