The Audiophile Debate

[AnotherSpin]

As a listener you don't have to concern yourself with numbers. The person designing the equipment has to use device specifications, engineering formulas and measurements to design equipment. The artistry involves understanding what measurements (frequency response, distortion, slew rate, linearity, output impedance) reflect perceived sound quality.

A sculptor must understand the properties of the stone from which he carves his work. And yet his art involves more than just understanding the physical properties of the material or some related measurements.

[71 dB]

I'm so blessed that my ears cannot truly tell the difference between 480p and 4k.

I hope your eyes can... ...I think the fact that there is such a huge visual difference between 480p and 1080p and with large screens even between 1080p and 2160p makes many believe Hi-res audio has to be audibly better than 16/44.1, but CD-quality 16/44.1 already is the same for audio 8K is for video.

[Valentino]

May I steal that one, @71dB?

[Irons]

I wonder how this system measures?

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I wonder how this system measures?

Can't make out the brands/models that he's showing.  What kind of speakers is he showing?

PD

[AnotherSpin]

I wonder how this system measures?

Tube amplification, turntable, archaic Altec speakers and an LP recorded in the early 60's. Measurements will be awful, you don't even have to try. It is only by virtue of my inexorable and perverse audiophilia that I will insist that this set sounds more natural, more organic, and immeasurably better than today's conventional standard designs with perfect measurements 

[71 dB]

May I steal that one, @71dB?

Not sure what's there to steal, but go ahead. 

[Fëanor]

I wonder how this system measures?

No digital and three too many turntables.

[Irons]

Tube amplification, turntable, archaic Altec speakers and an LP recorded in the early 60's. Measurements will be awful, you don't even have to try. It is only by virtue of my inexorable and perverse audiophilia that I will insist that this set sounds more natural, more organic, and immeasurably better than today's conventional standard designs with perfect measurements 

That is the whole point. Sure, measurements have a place but they are not the be all and end all. Life isn't like that. Sometimes excellence cannot be measured. 

[Todd]

I wonder how this system measures?

Poorly, there is no question.  The question is whether the owner is an audiophile fraud who believes s/he can hear things that don't exist or that measurements do not predict sound. 

Sometimes excellence cannot be measured.

Engineering excellence can always be measured.  People very often prefer specific types of distortion and may even enjoy gear for non-audio reasons. 

[DavidW]

No digital and three too many turntables.

I think there is a cd player there but yeah.  Youtubers thinking that you can truly appreciate the sound of their gear through a youtube video never ceases to amuse me!

[Spotted Horses]

That is the whole point. Sure, measurements have a place but they are not the be all and end all. Life isn't like that. Sometimes excellence cannot be measured. 

It can be. Audio gear that has measurable distortion can "sound good," because it is possible to take pleasure in the nuanced distortion of the signal. That can be a legitimate source of pleasure, that's why guitarists cherish their Marshal tube amps.  But my view is that the nuance should come from the performer, his or her instrument, and the space in which the performance took place. I don't want sound gear to layer it's own nuance on top of that. It should be neutral, and neutrality is entirely measurable.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I wonder how this system measures?

I must admit that those speakers are pretty cool looking (besides sounding).  Any idea what model they are?

PD

[AnotherSpin]

That is the whole point. Sure, measurements have a place but they are not the be all and end all. Life isn't like that. Sometimes excellence cannot be measured. 

+1

[Valentino]

I think there is a cd player there but yeah.  Youtubers thinking that you can truly appreciate the sound of their gear through a youtube video never ceases to amuse me!

Listening with one's eyes. People are strange.

[AnotherSpin]

I think there is a cd player there but yeah.  Youtubers thinking that you can truly appreciate the sound of their gear through a youtube video never ceases to amuse me!

Of course, YouTube can't convey the actual sound quality. Nevertheless, if you take two sound sets, one of well-matched components and one of poorly matched components, and demonstrate their sound, you can hear the difference even on YouTube. A well-trained ear will be able to distinguish the important parameters of sound even in this case.

Who never ceases to amaze me are those who trust instrument measurements but don't trust their ears. But that's not unusual. People need external validation all the time. They don't trust themselves, they don't know how to hear themselves, so they seek and trust external approval. In what they do, how they dress, where they live, who they live with, who they vote for. Approval in what they listen to and in what quality of sound. The instrument says it's good, so it's good! And even if they don't like the sound, they don't dare to object, they don't argue with the meters.

[Florestan]

Listening with one's eyes.

Reading scores...

[71 dB]

Who never ceases to amaze me are those who trust instrument measurements but don't trust their ears.
 But that's not unusual. People need external validation all the time. They don't trust themselves, they don't know how to hear themselves, so they seek and trust external approval. In what they do, how they dress, where they live, who they live with, who they vote for. Approval in what they listen to and in what quality of sound. The instrument says it's good, so it's good! And even if they don't like the sound, they don't dare to object, they don't argue with the meters.

Measuring devices don't suffer from placebo effect, subjectivity and confirmation bias. Humans do. That's why I am sceptical about what my ears tell me and I want the measurements confirm it.

I want the quality to be on the recording. It it the job of music producers, mixers and masters to come up with recordings that sound good on audio gear that measures well. It doesn't make sense to have crappy recordings and spend $100.000 on exotic gear that shapes the sound into something pleasant. At least it doesn't make sense to me, because only a small portion of people can afford spending that much money on audio gear. Science and engineering should help improving people's lives and finding ways to offer good sound for people for less money is one way to do that.

As for who I vote for or what music I listen to, I completely trust my own judgement. Anyone who has read my posts here concerning my music taste and my political opinions know this about me.

[AnotherSpin]

Measuring devices don't suffer from placebo effect, subjectivity and confirmation bias. Humans do. That's why I am sceptical about what my ears tell me and I want the measurements confirm it.

I want the quality to be on the recording. It it the job of music producers, mixers and masters to come up with recordings that sound good on audio gear that measures well. It doesn't make sense to have crappy recordings and spend $100.000 on exotic gear that shapes the sound into something pleasant. At least it doesn't make sense to me, because only a small portion of people can afford spending that much money on audio gear. Science and engineering should help improving people's lives and finding ways to offer good sound for people for less money is one way to do that.

As for who I vote for or what music I listen to, I completely trust my own judgement. Anyone who has read my posts here concerning my music taste and my political opinions know this about me.

Are you saying you trust music producer ears more than your own? Well, it may happen, see my previous comment. Where do you think the huge number of poorly recorded and bad sounding albums come from, especially in recent times? Ever heard about loudness war?

Nowhere did I say that $100,000 equipment should sound good. Quite often a poorly matched set of mega-expensive components sounds bad. I'm referring to the selection of ordinary components for the average listener. I'm over with trusting others opinions here or seeking support from measurements. My ears is the only thing which ultimately matters for me. It would be not correct but this is how I hear things.

[Todd]

A well-trained ear will be able to distinguish the important parameters of sound even in this case.

Where do ears receive training for this type of thing?