Valentin Silvestrov, a genius or a lot of the same notes in different wraps?

[bhodges]

Nice, again!

Thank you, Karl. The album was a joy to listen to, which made writing about it an almost equal pleasure.

-Bruce

[lunar22]

Silvestrov's 5th in particular is quite unlike anything else and to me is, together with Weinberg's rather different yet also "post-romantic" War Trilogy, the greatest symphonic creations to come out of the last decade of the Soviet Union. You have to be in the mood for it -- I wouldn't say it's easy music -- but if you are, it's unforgettably haunting.

The Requiem, although it gets dangerously close to sentimentality at times, is another of his most moving works.

[AnotherSpin]

Of Silvestrov's music, I return most often to Silent Songs. It's hard to say how much they will be appreciated by those who can't understand the words.

[foxandpeng]

Silvestrov's 5th in particular is quite unlike anything else and to me is, together with Weinberg's rather different yet also "post-romantic" War Trilogy, the greatest symphonic creations to come out of the last decade of the Soviet Union. You have to be in the mood for it -- I wouldn't say it's easy music -- but if you are, it's unforgettably haunting.

The Requiem, although it gets dangerously close to sentimentality at times, is another of his most moving works.

I very much enjoy the Jukka Pekka Saraste/Lahti SO version of #5 on BIS. It's a great symphony.

[foxandpeng]

I have been listening a great deal this week to Silvestrov's symphonies streaming on Spotify. I have a real appreciation for his style, and find him pretty captivating at the moment.

I'm yet to hear symphonies 1, 3, 8, or 9, but have located them on YouTube with the exception of 9. I look forward to exploring them also, but preference order for those I have heard so far?

6, 5, 7, 4, 2

[Mandryka]

I'm getting the following feeling about the difference between Sylvestrov and Schnittke - I'll post it here to be refuted. With Schnittke I feel as though I'm confronted with a bold, restless, experimenting intellect (same feeling as I have with Stockhausen and Rihm.) With Sylvestrov, I feel as though I'm confronted with a composer who found a shtick and milked it. He wouldn't be the only one, it's not necessarily a fault, the same could be said of many successful musicians (e.g. Philip Glass, Salvatore Sciarrino, Morton Feldman.)  Listening here to Sylvestrov's second string quartet played by the Lysenkos.

[AnotherSpin]

An extensive selection of Silvestrov's recordings are available on bandcamp

https://silvestrov.bandcamp.com

[AnotherSpin]

I'm getting the following feeling about the difference between Sylvestrov and Schnittke - I'll post it here to be refuted. With Schnittke I feel as though I'm confronted with a bold, restless, experimenting intellect (same feeling as I have with Stockhausen and Rihm.) With Sylvestrov, I feel as though I'm confronted with a composer who found a shtick and milked it. He wouldn't be the only one, it's not necessarily a fault, the same could be said of many successful musicians (e.g. Philip Glass, Salvatore Sciarrino, Morton Feldman.)  Listening here to Sylvestrov's second string quartet played by the Lysenkos.

In no way do I want to influence your feeling. But I see or rather hear Silvestrov's musical journey differently. Eventually the man ended the argument in his head, the confrontation and tension is gone. All is at peace. There is not much to say, only shadows of past thoughts arise out of nowhere and disappear into nowhere. Peace at last.

Nikos Kazantzakis epitaph comes to mind:

I hope for nothing
I fear nothing
I am free.

[Luke]

In no way do I want to influence your feeling. But I see or rather hear Silvestrov's musical journey differently. Eventually the man ended the argument in his head, the confrontation and tension is gone. All is at peace. There is not much to say, only shadows of past thoughts arise out of nowhere and disappear into nowhere. Peace at last.

Nikos Kazantzakis epitaph comes to mind:

I hope for nothing
I fear nothing
I am free.

Beautifully put. I couldn't agree more.

[Mandryka]

I'm getting the following feeling about the difference between Sylvestrov and Schnittke - I'll post it here to be refuted. With Schnittke I feel as though I'm confronted with a bold, restless, experimenting intellect (same feeling as I have with Stockhausen and Rihm.) With Sylvestrov, I feel as though I'm confronted with a composer who found a shtick and milked it. He wouldn't be the only one, it's not necessarily a fault, the same could be said of many successful musicians (e.g. Philip Glass, Salvatore Sciarrino, Morton Feldman.)  Listening here to Sylvestrov's second string quartet played by the Lysenkos.

Well I'll keep posting any thoughts - Schmelz's book is very inspiring.

The Lysenko performance of the second quartet is outstanding - it's a good thing that Spotify have made it accessible.

[Mandryka]

In no way do I want to influence your feeling. But I see or rather hear Silvestrov's musical journey differently. Eventually the man ended the argument in his head, the confrontation and tension is gone. All is at peace. There is not much to say, only shadows of past thoughts arise out of nowhere and disappear into nowhere. Peace at last.

Nikos Kazantzakis epitaph comes to mind:

I hope for nothing
I fear nothing
I am free.

There is certainly a strand in his music which is quiet and peaceful - things like Kitsch Music and Fleeting Melodies.

But I want to suggest that this is only a strand. For example, while it's true that the third string quartet (2011) is not as dissonant as Drama, the dissonance and tension is still there. There are tensions caused by a dialogue between sweet music and (for want of a better word) sour music.

The so called "metaphorical music" is just a part of his output. In fact, I've come across quotes where he says that this type of melodic and tonal music is as avant garde as anything else he wrote, because melodic tonal music was against the current of the age when he wrote it.

[Mandryka]

By the way, I'll just mention something I feel about Fleeting Melodies. The recording quality is fabulous - it sounds so small, and domestic - there are just no big gestures and big sounds. It sounds like music you could play in a big apartment block - the neighbours won't hear it probably, and anyway even if they caught a bit of it, it's so sweet and lovely, they'd be happy.

It is the most anti-Beethoven music I have ever heard!

Is it kitsch? Well I don't think so - it's certainly not the musical equivalent of Jeff Koons, because to me, it sounds authentic. It's as if he's taken the musical language of Grieg or Mendelssohn or Chopin or Schubert or Tchaikovsky and used it quite authentically, with no irony.

This glorious CD.

https://www.discogs.com/release/2268340-Valentyn-Silvestrov-Bohdana-Pivnenko-Valeriy-Matiukhin-Fleeting-Melodies

[AnotherSpin]

There is certainly a strand in his music which is quiet and peaceful - things like Kitsch Music and Fleeting Melodies.

But I want to suggest that this is only a strand. For example, while it's true that the third string quartet (2011) is not as dissonant as Drama, the dissonance and tension is still there. There are tensions caused by a dialogue between sweet music and (for want of a better word) sour music.

The so called "metaphorical music" is just a part of his output. In fact, I've come across quotes where he says that this type of melodic and tonal music is as avant garde as anything else he wrote, because melodic tonal music was against the current of the age when he wrote it.

One could be at peace even amidst the war. Dissonance may well be present and all the sound and fury come and go. The point is does one argue with what is or not argue.

I know Silvestrov music is not the same all around. But I see something in his quiet music that sets him apart from others.

[CRCulver]

this type of melodic and tonal music is as avant garde as anything else he wrote, because melodic tonal music was against the current of the age when he wrote it.

It was against the current of his own social circle and models in the West that he looked to, no more. The vast majority of Soviet composers in that era never stopped writing tonal melodic music, and the avant-garde of early Silvestrov (and Schnittke etc.) were always a sideshow in Soviet classical music.

That said, Silvestrov was definitely innovative in how he wrote more tonal, melodic music, as he created a soundworld that was different from anyone else. (I don't mean that 1970s output of anonymous "kitsch music" but the works of the 1980s like the Fifth).

[Mandryka]

It was against the current of his own social circle and models in the West that he looked to, no more. The vast majority of Soviet composers in that era never stopped writing tonal melodic music, and the avant-garde of early Silvestrov (and Schnittke etc.) were always a sideshow in Soviet classical music.

That said, Silvestrov was definitely innovative in how he wrote more tonal, melodic music, as he created a soundworld that was different from anyone else. (I don't mean that 1970s output of anonymous "kitsch music" but the works of the 1980s like the Fifth).

Yes I can imagine that's true having recently discovered Popov's quartet. And I suppose there was lots of tonal music on the other side of the iron curtain too, thinking of Glass and Rochberg and even here in England, Howard Skempton.

[AnotherSpin]

By the way, I'll just mention something I feel about Fleeting Melodies. The recording quality is fabulous - it sounds so small, and domestic - there are just no big gestures and big sounds. It sounds like music you could play in a big apartment block - the neighbours won't hear it probably, and anyway even if they caught a bit of it, it's so sweet and lovely, they'd be happy.

It is the most anti-Beethoven music I have ever heard!

Is it kitsch? Well I don't think so - it's certainly not the musical equivalent of Jeff Koons, because to me, it sounds authentic. It's as if he's taken the musical language of Grieg or Mendelssohn or Chopin or Schubert or Tchaikovsky and used it quite authentically, with no irony.

This glorious CD.

From the cover of the CD:

"Fleeting Melodies" is a large cycle, comprised of seven works, which are performed without interruption - as one large text. For me in this work, there is a certain analogy with Bach's cycle "The Art of the Fugue"; in Bach's work the didactic idea and its application are primary. I could have called this cycle "The Art of the Melody", but in this name the didactic idea is missing and only the "art" is represented; thus "fleeting melodies" - the expanse, in which melodies exist on the boundary between their appearance and disappearance...

-Valentin Silvestrov

[Mandryka]

From the cover of the CD:

"Fleeting Melodies" is a large cycle, comprised of seven works, which are performed without interruption - as one large text. For me in this work, there is a certain analogy with Bach's cycle "The Art of the Fugue"; in Bach's work the didactic idea and its application are primary. I could have called this cycle "The Art of the Melody", but in this name the didactic idea is missing and only the "art" is represented; thus "fleeting melodies" - the expanse, in which melodies exist on the boundary between their appearance and disappearance...

-Valentin Silvestrov

Blimey!

[Mandryka]

Silvestrov's a really good pianist - shame about the sound but I'm not complaining - it's wonderful to have it. This performance of Kitch Music - light, and alive - is what made see the light. What is a pitty is that there's only three of the five pieces. 

https://silvestrov.bandcamp.com/album/kitsch-music-1977

[vers la flamme]

Having never heard a note of his music, where would you all recommend I start?

[Mandryka]

Of Silvestrov's music, I return most often to Silent Songs. It's hard to say how much they will be appreciated by those who can't understand the words.

Well I can't understand the words. It's obviously not late Feldman, it's obviously very different from late Feldman,  but my experience of listening shows something in common. For one thing, there's the very Feldmanesque feeling of wondering whether this is a repeat of music you heard before, and not being sure at all. A strange disorienting effect of memory. Feldman was also preoccupied by quietness in his later music, and egoless performance.

Having never heard a note of his music, where would you all recommend I start?

Drama (especially the trio, the final movement of Drama)  and The Requiem were the pieces which caught my attention first.