Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[brewski]

This Sunday, July 30, at 6:00 pm EDT, Aspen's next livestream: Mahler's Third Symphony with Robert Spano, Kelley O'Connor, AOTVA Treble Chorus and Colorado Children's Chorale, and the Aspen Festival Orchestra

https://www.aspenmusicfestival.com/events/calendar/livestream-aspen-festival-orchestra-5/

-Bruce

[Valentino]

I found this in my (digital) vaults. It's a live recording, presumably from the concerts in the big hall 28, 29 or 31 May 2005. It has the same soloists as the DG "studio" recording. Not the best sound (compression etc as if it's made for FM radio) but I really like the intensity.
Have any of you mahlerians heard it and care to comment?

[Atriod]

What do people think of the Karajan in Mahler 9 DG studio vs DG live? Playing them within a couple of days of each other and I didn't think the differences were all that great. In the past I might have had a preference for the DG live but I might prefer the studio now.

[vers la flamme]

What do people think of the Karajan in Mahler 9 DG studio vs DG live? Playing them within a couple of days of each other and I didn't think the differences were all that great. In the past I might have had a preference for the DG live but I might prefer the studio now.

I always wondered what was the reason he made two recordings of it in such quick succession. Have not yet heard the studio. I'd like to, but I've got more than enough Mahler 9s to keep me busy for a couple of years. The Karajan live 9th is one of the best I know.

[Jo498]

Karajan took his time for Mahler (and only conducted 4-6, 9, LvdE) but it seems the 9th had become a favorite of his, and we also know that he was fascinated by technology and re-recorded a lot of standard repertoire in the 1980s digitally despite some health problems (although I think these came later than 1982). So I'd guess they took the opportunity to bring out a successful live version in DDD. Not sure about video/laserdisc but AFAIK Karajan didn't rerecord any of Mahler 4-6.

[LKB]

Karajan took his time for Mahler (and only conducted 4-6, 9, LvdE) but it seems the 9th had become a favorite of his, and we also know that he was fascinated by technology and re-recorded a lot of standard repertoire in the 1980s digitally despite some health problems (although I think these came later than 1982). So I'd guess they took the opportunity to bring out a successful live version in DDD. Not sure about video/laserdisc but AFAIK Karajan didn't rerecord any of Mahler 4-6.

Von Karajan's studio/analogue 9th and live digital 9th are conceptually very similar, as one might expect. The BPO were in peak form for both, but in the analogue Scherzo the E-Flat clarinet begins his solo a beat early ( how this made it into release has always puzzled me ). Pretty good engineering for both,  with the earlier effort sounding more atmospheric.

[relm1]

Karajan took his time for Mahler (and only conducted 4-6, 9, LvdE) but it seems the 9th had become a favorite of his, and we also know that he was fascinated by technology and re-recorded a lot of standard repertoire in the 1980s digitally despite some health problems (although I think these came later than 1982). So I'd guess they took the opportunity to bring out a successful live version in DDD. Not sure about video/laserdisc but AFAIK Karajan didn't rerecord any of Mahler 4-6.

I got the impression that Karajan came late to appreciate Mahler and might have conducted more of the symphonies had he started earlier or lived longer rather than intentionally omitting them, but I don't recall how I got this impression.  Do we know if he ever conducted those omitted symphonies in concert but just not recordings?

[LKB]

I read an interview in either 1977 or '78, in which von Karajan stated an intent to record the Eighth, and possibly the Third ( as l recall, forty-five years on I'm a bit foggy about this, not having seen the interview since ).

Solti's recording of the Eighth was pretty much ruling the roost at that time, and l suspect HvK might have wanted to try and go him one better. If only things hadn't of gone sour with the BPO, what might have come to fruition in his last ten years...

[AnotherSpin]

It seems to me that Karajan had no serious interest in Mahler for ideological reasons. That this began to change in the later period depended perhaps not on Karajan himself.

[relm1]

It seems to me that Karajan had no serious interest in Mahler for ideological reasons. That this began to change in the later period depended perhaps not on Karajan himself.

That would apply to everyone though except maybe Bernstein and Bruno Walter.  I recall hearing in the 1960's that none of Berlin/Vienna orchestras had yet played Mahler.  So you can imagine in the 70's it was novel and I would expect this to apply to Karajan too. 

[AnotherSpin]

That would apply to everyone though except maybe Bernstein and Bruno Walter.  I recall hearing in the 1960's that none of Berlin/Vienna orchestras had yet played Mahler.  So you can imagine in the 70's it was novel and I would expect this to apply to Karajan too. 

I was often in Vienna in the early 90s and I remember well the expressions on the faces of Viennese friends at the mention of Mahler. They usually spoke of their dislike of Mahler and that he simply did not know what he wanted to say in his symphonies, constantly jumping from one thing to another.

[Valentino]

According to Wikipedia the Vienna Philharmonic was very keen to premiere the fourth symphony.

[Jo498]

Some of this is obviously wrong as e.g. the Berlin Philharmonic had recorded Mahler in the 1960s with Barbirolli. Mahler was also performed in Vienna (and elsewhere in Germany and Austria) in the 50s and 60s although it was considered rather niche and the most performed pieces were probably 1,4 and LvdE.

Many conductors of Karajan's generation didn't much care for Mahler and recorded none, or only little, or only songs. E.g. Wand, Celibidache, Jochum, Böhm, Sawallisch.

Aa late as the late 1980s when I got into classical both Bruckner and Mahler were considered "difficult" or niche repertoire (compared to Brahms or Tchaikovsky) although by then there were of course plenty of recordings and the pieces were regularly played by the big orchestras

[AnotherSpin]

Some of this is obviously wrong as e.g. the Berlin Philharmonic had recorded Mahler in the 1960s with Barbirolli. Mahler was also performed in Vienna (and elsewhere in Germany and Austria) in the 50s and 60s although it was considered rather niche and the most performed pieces were probably 1,4 and LvdE.

Many conductors of Karajan's generation didn't much care for Mahler and recorded none, or only little, or only songs. E.g. Wand, Celibidache, Jochum, Böhm, Sawallisch.

Aa late as the late 1980s when I got into classical both Bruckner and Mahler were considered "difficult" or niche repertoire (compared to Brahms or Tchaikovsky) although by then there were of course plenty of recordings and the pieces were regularly played by the big orchestras

I suggested why Karajan had not recorded Mahler for a long time. Of course someone else was performing Mahler, in Berlin, in Vienna, or elsewhere. Since Bruckner is mentioned, it is interesting to trace the reasons for this well-known pattern. Many conductors who often performed Bruckner did not perform Mahler, and vice versa.

[Jo498]

You suggested "ideological reaons" and Relm claimed that "none of the Vienna/Berlin orchestras had played Mahler". The latter is wrong and the former is speculation.
I also pointed out that Mahler was in no way as standard repertoire as it is today until the 1970s or even later, so it should not be that surprising that a famous conductor of the time recorded only little, rather late in his career.

Did Celi, Karajan, Wand etc. all share enough "ideology" to not care or (in HvKs case) come only later in life to Mahler? Very doubtful.

We know that Karajan usually was meticulous in his preparation (AFAIK he didn't conduct any of the Mahler pieces he didn't also record), so at around 70 he might never have had enough time to prepare more Mahler to feel comfortable with it. He also had a few other gaps (never did Sibelius 3, despite high fondness for his 5-7)

[AnotherSpin]

You suggested "ideological reaons" and Relm claimed that "none of the Vienna/Berlin orchestras had played Mahler". The latter is wrong and the former is speculation.
I also pointed out that Mahler was in no way as standard repertoire as it is today until the 1970s or even later, so it should not be that surprising that a famous conductor of the time recorded only little, rather late in his career.

Did Celi, Karajan, Wand etc. all share enough "ideology" to not care or (in HvKs case) come only later in life to Mahler? Very doubtful.

We know that Karajan usually was meticulous in his preparation (AFAIK he didn't conduct any of the Mahler pieces he didn't also record), so at around 70 he might never have had enough time to prepare more Mahler to feel comfortable with it. He also had a few other gaps (never did Sibelius 3, despite high fondness for his 5-7)

Of course it's speculation. I've never been inside Karajan's head, and can't know for sure why he didn't perform Mahler for a long time. At the same time, some things seem obvious, and need no further proof.

When Karajan did perform Mahler, it seems to me that he was always trying to adjust Mahler's text to his own ideas. This is why Karajan's Mahler sounds rather peculiar. I don't think that Karajan could have had any technical difficulties in the preparation. Perhaps he just didn't play those symphonies which he thought were completely "hopeless".

[LKB]

It might be useful to recall that by the '70's von Karajan was committed to beauty of tone ( as he understood it ), above all else. 

Mahler, once he reached stylistic maturity, was interested in depicting the human emotional and spiritual universe in all of its variety, beautiful and otherwise.

Might it be that von Karajan waited as long as he did because he needed his medical challenges to provide interpretive insight, before recording the Sixth and Ninth Symphonies?

( This is mere speculation and is probably somewhat superficial, but I've not come across any more plausible explanations for HvK's " late arrival " in recording Mahler's 6th and 9th Symphonies.  )

[AnotherSpin]

It might be useful to recall that by the '70's von Karajan was committed to beauty of tone ( as he understood it ), above all else. 

Mahler, once he reached stylistic maturity, was interested in depicting the human emotional and spiritual universe in all of its variety, beautiful and otherwise.

Might it be that von Karajan waited as long as he did because he needed his medical challenges to provide interpretive insight, before recording the Sixth and Ninth Symphonies?

( This is mere speculation and is probably somewhat superficial, but I've not come across any more plausible explanations for HvK's " late arrival " in recording Mahler's 6th and 9th Symphonies.  )

I would not reduce Karajan's art to the beauty of tone alone. I have a complicated history with Karajan. As much as I was attracted to his albums very early, I stopped listening to him for decades. At that time Karajan for me was synonymous with what I didn't want to hear from a conductor. And now I'm back to him again, and it seems to me that when Karajan did something well, there are few if any who can replicate the same level.

Perhaps towards the end of his life Karajan appreciated more and more the harmony, the wholeness, the perfect balance of a piece of music. And Mahler, of course, is not about that at all.

Added: Now, that's interesting. You talk about Mahler's depiction of the human emotional and spiritual universe. Question - should music simply reflect the inner world of man, with all its problematic aspects, or should it show an ideal world of harmony and beauty? A model for soul aspiration? Of course, everyone will answer for himself or herself.

[ritter]

I get the feeling that Karajan jumped on the Mahler bandwagon because it made sense at the time (mainly from a commercial point of view, I'm afraid). Mahler seems not to have been central to the conductor's interests at any moment.

Concerning other conductors of his generation, passionate Mahlerite friends of mine told me they had read (I cannot find the source) that Karl Böhm pleaded failing eyesight as a reason for not being able to study Mahler's symphonies (he did record and conduct in concert some of the song cycles).

AFAIK, Jochum only tackled Das Lied von der Erde.

[AnotherSpin]

Interestingly, Mahler was hardly ever recorded in the Soviet Union. I remember Fedoseyev's recording of the 4th Symphony. Several symphonies were recorded by Kondrashin, who fled to the West. Shostakovich's chief performer, Mravinsky, did not record Mahler, despite Mahler's obvious influence on Shostakovich. Who knows, maybe because of this.