The Audiophile Debate

[drogulus]

I suppose (hope) within time this debate will disappear up it's own backside. I think we all should listen to music in a format we enjoy most. For me that happens to be vinyl and I don't believe my ears are made of cloth so find it tiresome when I'm told "distortion makes vinyl attractive". Poppycock. 

     No, it's not the distortion, it's limiting and compressing done for vinyl that some listeners believe is the way the music should sound. Objectively this is a reduction of fidelity.

     The other factor already mentioned is the poor quality of some early CD releases.

[DavidW]

Maybe I need to become an ABBA fan?

I never thought to see those words on this forum... don't let it be!!

[DavidW]

That Carpenters SHM-CD is in stock at cdjapan for 1714 yen, approx USD 11.39 at time of posting.
https://www.cdjapan.co.jp/searchuni?term.media_format=cd&q=carpenters

Shipping from Japan is fierce, but if you cobble together an order of 6 (say) or more CDs that are hard to find elsewhere, the package becomes reasonable.

I occasionally order from cdjapan and am a satisfied customer. I maintain a "wishlist" (or "bookmarks" in their terminology) on the site.

I bought the Haitink Mahler Christmas live recordings from cd japan and the price was right and the shipping was so breathtakingly fast that I would have thought they were shipping domestically!

[71 dB]

That Carpenters SHM-CD is in stock at cdjapan for 1714 yen, approx USD 11.39 at time of posting.
https://www.cdjapan.co.jp/searchuni?term.media_format=cd&q=carpenters

Shipping from Japan is fierce, but if you cobble together an order of 6 (say) or more CDs that are hard to find elsewhere, the package becomes reasonable.

I occasionally order from cdjapan and am a satisfied customer. I maintain a "wishlist" (or "bookmarks" in their terminology) on the site.

Thanks, good to know this. Looks quite English-friendly.

[T. D.]

Thanks, good to know this. Looks quite English-friendly.

I'm in US, so can't speak to what cdjapan does with VAT.
But for me it's an effective source for buying several Japanese imports at a time.

[71 dB]

I never thought to see those words on this forum... don't let it be!!

I never thought I'd say those words one day! 

[71 dB]

I'm in US, so can't speak to what cdjapan does with VAT.
But for me it's an effective source for buying several Japanese imports at a time.

Well, since they ship outside EU, they have to add VAT to the total or I have to pay it to allow the package go through the customs.

I wish I could buy everything domestically in Finland or at least inside EU, but a lot of stuff is available outside if even there.

[AnotherSpin]

I have personal experience. In my youth I heard tons of jazz played by my dad on vinyl + all those 100-150 vinyls I own which I ripped and cleaned in computer.

I mean personal experience with my music, music which I love. For example, in 70s I had Keith Jarrett's album My Song on LP. Then, few decades later, on the compact. Now as a digital file. I can compare my perception of this music on all three media and draw a conclusion about the sound and overall impression.

Or Glenn Gould's Goldbergs. Etc.

[AnotherSpin]

I never thought to see those words on this forum... don't let it be!!

I like ABBA. I believe they are one of the best pop groups ever.

[Spotted Horses]

I suppose (hope) within time this debate will disappear up it's own backside. I think we all should listen to music in a format we enjoy most. For me that happens to be vinyl and I don't believe my ears are made of cloth so find it tiresome when I'm told "distortion makes vinyl attractive". Poppycock. 

I wouldn't want to claim anyone's enjoyment of vinyl is in any way not valid. I only wish the LP crowd could declare a moratorium on claiming that digital sucks the life out of music, etc. A modern digital playback is demonstrably identical to the source, and I don't see how the life can be abolished from an audio recording without making some change in the audio signal.

[71 dB]

I mean personal experience with my music, music which I love. For example, in 70s I had Keith Jarrett's album My Song on LP. Then, few decades later, on the compact. Now as a digital file. I can compare my perception of this music on all three media and draw a conclusion about the sound and overall impression.

Or Glenn Gould's Goldbergs. Etc.

Yeah, I don't have much experience with your music obviously. I also have some music on both vinyl and CD.

[AnotherSpin]

Yeah, I don't have much experience with your music obviously. I also have some music on both vinyl and CD.

But you never had a turntable. So?

[71 dB]

But you never had a turntable. So?

I have never owned a turntable of my own, but I have used turntables of other people. As I told, I have ripped/digitazed my vinyls with my dad's turntable (Thorens TD 160).

[AnotherSpin]

I have never owned a turntable of my own, but I have used turntables of other people. As I told, I have ripped/digitazed my vinyls with my dad's turntable (Thorens TD 160).

That's the point. People don't treat other people's stuff the way they treat their own. If you had a long experience of owning a turntable and listening to your music that way, maybe the attitude would be different. But that didn't happen, so there's nothing to talk about.

[71 dB]

That's the point. People don't treat other people's stuff the way they treat their own. If you had a long experience of owning a turntable and listening to your music that way, maybe the attitude would be different. But that didn't happen, so there's nothing to talk about.

How do you think I treated my dad's turntable?

I have enjoyed music for decades and I find it absurd to be told I have done it the wrong way just because I don't own my own turntable. Yes, I agree. there's not much to talk about with someone like you.

[Irons]

I wouldn't want to claim anyone's enjoyment of vinyl is in any way not valid. I only wish the LP crowd could declare a moratorium on claiming that digital sucks the life out of music, etc. A modern digital playback is demonstrably identical to the source, and I don't see how the life can be abolished from an audio recording without making some change in the audio signal.

I'm not one of the "LP crowd" that claims  digital sucks the life out of music. I love my CD player and the pleasure it brings. A poster claimed further up this thread that digital sound has improved immeasurably over the years, this is very true. I just get slightly irked by folk who have not heard my vinyl system, and wouldn't surprise me have not heard a properly setup one - which does not mean expensive, claim from high that "it's the distortion you like". 

[AnotherSpin]

I'm not one of the "LP crowd" that claims  digital sucks the life out of music. I love my CD player and the pleasure it brings. A poster claimed further up this thread that digital sound has improved immeasurably over the years, this is very true. I just get slightly irked by folk who have not heard my vinyl system, and wouldn't surprise me have not heard a properly setup one - which does not mean expensive, claim from high that "it's the distortion you like". 

They demand that no one else argue that digital sucks the life out of music, but they repeat over and over again that vinyl lovers simply love to listen to distortion. Funny...

[71 dB]

I'm not one of the "LP crowd" that claims  digital sucks the life out of music. I love my CD player and the pleasure it brings. A poster claimed further up this thread that digital sound has improved immeasurably over the years, this is very true. I just get slightly irked by folk who have not heard my vinyl system, and wouldn't surprise me have not heard a properly setup one - which does not mean expensive, claim from high that "it's the distortion you like". 

If the signal is different from original sound, there is distortion. Because of how analog audio formats work, it is near impossible to remove those distortions completely or at least lower them far beyond audibility. The strength of digital audio is the fact that getting distortions very tiny, inaudible, is quite easy.

If you like analog sound (audible distortions) while not liking digital sound (inaudible distortions), the only logical conclusion is you like the distortions. You may not hear the distortion as distortion. You probably hear it as part of the music, the "life" of music, because distortion modulates/correlates with music. That's why people may not realise there is distortion. Noise (doesn't correlate with the music) is easier to detect as something not part of the music.

Digital audio doesn't "suck life out of music." It does nothing to the music. It is audible transparent*. The problem is there probably wasn't life in the music to begin with! Analog audio adds it in the form of distortion and sounds more pleasing to you. That's why I speak for adding "life" to music in mixing and mastering. Classical music probably doesn't need it, but some other music genres probably do.

* Lossy digital formats such as mp3 aren't transparent obviously, but lossless formats are. So, when I talk about digital audio, I mean lossless digital formats of 44.1 kHz/16 bit or more.

[Todd]

If the signal is different from original sound, there is distortion.

Facts have no place in audio proselytizing. 

[DavidW]

Let us all please refrain from ad hominem attacks.

btw that had nothing to do with Todd's post but the exchange between AS and 71 dB earlier (which has now been removed).