People obsessed by categories: "Soundtracks are not classical music!!!"

[Florestan]

The most popular classical soundtracks should be played regularly by all orchestras together with the classics of concert music.

Says who?

[Florestan]

O ciel, che noia!

Non si da follia maggiore
Che d'amar un solo oggetto...

[SimonNZ]

I might also mention a letter of Mozart, in which he wrote: "If you want to be applauded by the public you have to write something that even a coachman can sing".

Which letter by Mozart?

Because I've just spent a bit of time and I can't find that. Most places that repeat that quote don't give a specific source. One said it was from a letter to his father from 1782, but none of the ones in my edition have that quote. And a keyword search on Project Gutenberg of the Mozart Letters doesn't bring up that quote.

But there is a longer version of it free-floating out there:

"True perfection in all things is no longer known or prized - you must write music that is either so simple a coachman could sing it, or so unintelligible that audiences like it simply because no sane person could understand it"

...which has quite a different meaning than the one you'd have.

[Florestan]

I might also mention a letter of Mozart, in which he wrote: "If you want to be applauded by the public you have to write something that even a coachman can sing

This is a gross misquote which completely misrepresents what Mozart really said.

[Karl Henning]

You didn't get my point.

There are people for whom "classical" music is too complex. So what?

Word.

[Karl Henning]

Title: Support or Refute

Classical music tends to lack strong hooks. A large sum of it is largely forgettable.

First: the title is a tip-off to how uninvested the poster is in serious discussion of the question.
Second: it isn't simply that this false equivalency is a cartoon, but pretending that it's a viable hypothesis raises wilful ignorance/disdain into supposedly a kind of virtue.
Third: relatedly, Moby-Dick requires more effort to read than does Hop on Pop. Guess which has "strong hooks?"

[W.A. Mozart]

It isn't.

edit: thinking about this a little and I'm going to guess that in terms of record sales it would be Symphony 40 and in terms of ticket sales it would far and away be one of the operas - perhaps even in the top three spots.

The people who go to classical music concerts and buy recordings are the ones who really like classical music.

The highest popularity of a piece is reached when even the casual listener likes it.

In youtube the most popular videos with the Rondo alla Turca have milions of views. With the two most popular videos you already reach 90 milions views.

See...these questions will have actual answers. You could look to interviews with Horner or interviews with James Cameron, but you haven't done that.

So who is it you're listening to for these oh so certain answers? There's nobody else...just the voices in your head.

There is also the fact that it's the typical product of the music industry. You can change the style and make it more rock, more reggie, more dance, more jazz... whatever you want, the important thing is that the structure is more or less like this.

A singable melodic fragment used to construct the entire melody.

Note the climax at 3:24, the technique is really simple. Simply increase the pitch of the theme and you are done. This is how the climax is obtained in the typical pop song. Not even the climax creates real surprises.

What James Horner did is obvious: he simply copied the typical pop songs with high commercial success.



Why does this form work so well for commercial success? Because for some complex neurological reasons, the perceived beauty of a melody increases with repetition.
Since in a piece of classical music a theme is typically repeated only three times in the original form (exposition, repetion, recapitulation), at the first listening you only hear each theme three times for a short time.
You will really start to love a piece after different listenings.

In a pop song the simple melodic fragment used to construct the entire melody is repeated so many times in a row that you get instant gratification.

[W.A. Mozart]

You didn't get my point.

There are people for whom "classical" music is too complex. So what?

There is not a "so". People die. So what? So people die.

So the songs with a very simple construction like this one will be always the ones with highest commercial success.

The classical music will always be in the shadow of trivial popular songs, unless we don't decide to put the relativism in the trash bin and we tell people that classical music is the highest form of western music but that it requires a bit of effort to get into it.
Perhaps more people will be incentivated to make the necessariy effort to get into classical music.

The problem is that today we are in the era of political correctness and even music has been touched by it.

Even in this discussion there is a good example.

IMO genres classifications do not connote quality. I personally feel that classical music is not the highest form of musical expression;

Even in online communities this concept is repeated over and over and you can't tell that classical music is the highest form of western music, otherwise the people will start to bash you.


Now, this is the beat of a popular rap song. It's nothing else than a simple motif repeated over and over.

"So what? It's only an example!"


False! Different musical genres have different standards of qualities!

In rap music is perfectly normal to compose something like this.


If Mozart wrote something like that after he had written something like this...

... people would have suspected that he had brain cancer.


"So what? It's only an example!"


Still, no! The people elogiate the fugal writting of this piece, but it's a normal technique in classical music.

Mozart didn't compose this only because he was Mozart, but because he was a composer of a serious genre.



I'm not saying this because I hate rap music. I actually like various rap songs, but one thing is to enjoy a piece, and an other thing is to speak about artistic merits.

And since I'm a honest person I will also say that rap music is more interesting than classical music when it comes to lyrics.
The point is that rap music doesn't work as absolute music: you have to add extramusical elements to obtain a respectable product.
The rap beat alone is not interesting.


Mozart's Jupiter doesn't need lyrics. It's absolute music, i.e. music that it's complete in itself. This is why Mozart was a Composer (with the capital "c"), while a skilled rapper like Eminem can be called "rapper" but not "Composer" (with the capital "c").


In conclusions, different artistic movements create different standards of qualities for different things.

If you want a Composer who writes absolute music, listen to classical music!

If you want a Singer (with capital "s"), you find it in many different genres. There are pieces of classical music which combine Singers with Composers. Pop songs are usually more focused on the skills of singers.

If you want a Poet (with capital "p"), listen to rap.



Can I say that the people who pretend the everything is equal, that rap music requires the same MUSICAL craftmanship of classical music, are annoying?

I'd say the same thing if people would pretend that Mozart was a skilled lyricist like Eminem.


This (Eminem)

Vs this (Mozart)

Even the lyrics of Da Ponte can not be compared to the ones of Eminem.

[71 dB]

There are people for whom "classical" music is too complex. So what?

A lot of people just aren't interested or complex or intellectual things in music. For a lot of people classical music would not be too complex if they just got into it, but they choose not to. They choose to do something else.

This getting into classical music happened to me in just a few years: I went from "Who cares about classical music? Isn't it too old for modern ears?" to "OMG, the World of classical music is a cornucopia of awesome music!" I didn't have parents interested of classical music. That's why didn't have the exposure to classical music in my childhood. That's why I didn't get into classical music at age 10. I got into the drumming of Max Roach, because my father is into jazz. I got into classical music, because I met my best friend in university and he plays violin and told me some works of classical music have really good melodies etc. He was a person whose words I could take seriously, because we shared interest in the electronic dance music of the early 90s.

Not all people have other people around them encouraging to get into classical music. Instead, people go with their friends to metal/EDM concerts, raves etc. Classical music has elitistic reputation (unfairly, but it is what it is). That's why people tend to keep away from it which in turn causes them not to see what classical music really is about.

It takes effort to broaden one's music taste. People use energy to defend the music they like instead of using the same energy to understand other music better. You may understand the Symphonies of Shostakovich, but can you understand (enjoy) this?

[71 dB]

So the songs with a very simple construction like this one will be always the ones with highest commercial success.

Songs like that are manufactured for commercial success. Not all songs like this are successful, but sometimes they are. Most of the time the principle of commercial success ruin the music for me, but sometimes it doesn't. There are commercially very successful songs I do enjoy myself.

The classical music will always be in the shadow of trivial popular songs, unless we don't decide to put the relativism in the trash bin and we tell people that classical music is the highest form of western music but that it requires a bit of effort to get into it. Perhaps more people will be incentivated to make the necessariy effort to get into classical music.

We need to remove the elitistic label from classical music. What if we didn't claim classical music to be "above" other music and let people decide themselves? Any person who gets into classical music is likely to admit sooner or later it is pretty sophisticed stuff, but in order to make people see all the effort needed, we need to make classical music attractive. Telling people it is music for smart people isn't probably the best strategy. Also, telling people the commercial music they listen to is stupid garbage (all of it is certainly not!) is likely to make them even less interested of classical music they already were.

Not all classical music is difficult. The music of composers such as Grieg and Mussorgsky is quite easy and attractive (even familiar) for newbies.

Even in online communities this concept is repeated over and over and you can't tell that classical music is the highest form of western music, otherwise the people will start to bash you.

Higher mathematics is the highest form of math. Telling this to people doesn't make everyone suddenly interested about math and start to solve open conjectures.

Classical music is the highest form of music if the criteria is the things in which classical music excels in, but music can be good in various ways. I get a lot of things from other music genres I do not get out of classical music. Even Elgar wasn't that great of a bubblegum pop or drum 'n' bass producer!  If I want to listen to bubblegum pop, Katy Perry is an excellent choice. If I want to listen to drum 'n' bass, Jonny L it is, but if I want to listen to an epic Symphony, Elgar is the man!

[pjme]

How to Step Back from an obsession:

• Try a temporary hiatus. Take a day or a week off from engaging with whatever you're obsessed with. (soundtracks, Celine Dion, complex music, ...)
• Change your setting or routine. ...
• Eliminate triggers. ...
• Be kind to yourself. ...
• Understand what psychological needs the obsession is fulfilling.

[DavidW]

How to Step Back from an obsession:

• Try a temporary hiatus. Take a day or a week off from engaging with whatever you're obsessed with. (soundtracks, Celine Dion, complex music, ...)
• Change your setting or routine. ...
• Eliminate triggers. ...
• Be kind to yourself. ...
• Understand what psychological needs the obsession is fulfilling.

I think excepting the Celine Dione this could be posted on the audiophile debate thread!

[Florestan]

the songs with a very simple construction like this one will be always the ones with highest commercial success.

Of course they will. Most people will always take the easiest path to anything. So what?

The classical music will always be in the shadow of trivial popular songs, unless we don't decide to put the relativism in the trash bin and we tell people that classical music is the highest form of western music but that it requires a bit of effort to get into it.
Perhaps more people will be incentivated to make the necessariy effort to get into classical music.

If I understand correctly what you say here (which is a big if for me as a non-native English speaker ---  "unless we don't decide" gives me a headache) then you contradict yourself big time: until now you maintained that "classical" music should be made as easy as possible for people not familiar with it; now you claim that it requires a bit of effort to get into it.

The problem is that today we are in the era of political correctness and even music has been touched by it.

Even in this discussion there is a good example.

@San Antone 's post has got nothing to do with political correctness. In case you didn't notice, he said "I personally feel that...", which is the exact opposite of "Everybody should feel that..."

you can't tell that classical music is the highest form of western music, otherwise the people will start to bash you.

Once again, if I understand you correctly --- and this time I think I do --- then you have a split personality: until now you claimed that "classical" music should be dumbed down in order for pop music fans to enjoy it as well, now you claim that it is the highest form of Western music.

Different musical genres have different standards of qualities!

Bingo! This very truism should put an end to your rants.

In rap music is perfectly normal to compose something like this.


If Mozart wrote something like that after he had written something like this...

... people would have suspected that he had brain cancer.

Counterfactual history is bad enough. Anachronistic counterfactual history is awful.

And since I'm a honest person I will also say that rap music is more interesting than classical music when it comes to lyrics.

Obviously your honesty doesn't go so far as admitting that your knowledge of vocal "classical" music is scant --- otherwise you'd have known that, on the whole, "classical" music art songs (whether they be called Lieder, melodies, romances or whatever is immaterial) were set to poetry (not lyrics, mind you --- Goethe, Heine, Baudelaire and Pushkin, to name only a few, wrote poetry, not lyrics) compared to which rap is what manure is compared to ambrosia.

If you want a Composer who writes absolute music, listen to classical music!

If you want a Singer (with capital "s"), you find it in many different genres. There are pieces of classical music which combine Singers with Composers. Pop songs are usually more focused on the skills of singers.

If you want a Poet (with capital "p"), listen to rap.

Talk about obsessive categorization...

If you want a Singer (with capital "s")

Enrico Caruso, Tito Schippa, Ezio Pinza... Jussi Bjorling, Franco Corelli, Nicolai Gedda... Jose Carreras, Placido Domingo, Luciano Pavarotti...

If you want a Poet (with capital "p")

Byron, Shelley, Coleridge, Wordsworth... Hugo, Baudelaire, Verlaine... Goethe, Heine, Rilke...

Even the lyrics of Da Ponte can not be compared to the ones of Eminem.

Da Ponte did not write lyrics, he wrote operatic libretti. If you can't make the difference between the former and the latter, then with all due respect, Sir, you'd have better stuck to pop music.

[Karl Henning]

A lot of people just aren't interested or complex or intellectual things in music. For a lot of people classical music would not be too complex if they just got into it, but they choose not to. They choose to do something else.

That's right, do s/th else, don't whine about classical music not being an easy consumible like pop music.

[Karl Henning]

Oh, the long since tiresome "I prefer Eminem to Rilke, therefore Eminem is greater than Rilke" fallacy.

[Florestan]

That's right, do s/th else, don't whine about classical music not being an easy consumible like pop music.

Someone delights in listening to a 3-minute pop song. More power to them.

Someone delights in listening to Don Pasquale. More power to them.

Someone delights in listening to Bruckner's Eighth. More power to them.

To each one's own. More power to them.

[San Antone]

don't whine about classical music not being an easy consumible like pop music.

I agree with you, but I also cringe when classical music lovers say things like, "Bob Dylan is a lousy singer" or some variant of that kind of thought.

My hope for sites like TC is that lovers of any kind of music desist from taking pot shots at other kinds of music.

[Karl Henning]

I agree with you, but I also cringe when classical music lovers say things like, "Bob Dylan is a lousy singer" or some variant of that kind of thought.

My hope for sites like TC is that lovers of any kind of music desist from taking pot shots at other kinds of music.

Take each genre on its own terms. 

[Karl Henning]

I agree with you, but I also cringe when classical music lovers say things like, "Bob Dylan is a lousy singer" or some variant of that kind of thought.

My hope for sites like TC is that lovers of any kind of music desist from taking pot shots at other kinds of music.

Tangentially, I am enjoying Ken Burns' Country Music a great deal, indeed.

[SimonNZ]

The people who go to classical music concerts and buy recordings are the ones who really like classical music.

The highest popularity of a piece is reached when even the casual listener likes it.

If that's where you want to put the goalpost I'll say this: if I were to ask a lot of non classical enthusiasts to hum a piece of Mozart I strongly suspect most of the replies, when I got any, would be Eine Kleine Nachtmusik.

Even the lyrics of Da Ponte can not be compared to the ones of Eminem.

This tells be you've never seen an entire Mozart opera. I wonder why you've made the guy your username. I guessing you see him more as a talisman on the "not-modern", rather than as the composer of, say, string quartets.


If what you really really want is the highest level of popularity and accessibility of orchestra-stuff then I think its Andre Rieu you're looking for. Enjoy.