The Audiophile Debate

[Spotted Horses]

True. Children come clean, they possess (or they are) unlimited and unbounded knowing. Then, in time, they became conditioned by parents and schools and society, with various bullshit, such as science, et al.

...he types on his computer, which is the culmination of three centuries of science and engineering. Why not write this insight on the wall of a cave with a charred stick?

Certainly we need to listen to the results to judge whether the design of an audio component is successful. The point is not to ignore the technical, but learn how the technical measurements and calculations are reflected in the experience. You can't design an audio component using mystical intuition. You have to design an audio component with analytical calculations and measurement of component performance. To paraphrase Einstein, you are shitting on the giant whose shoulders your are standing on.

[Florestan]

"There are two equally dangerous extremes: to shut reason out, and to let nothing else in."

— Blaise Pascal

[DavidW]

What is the point of saying anything?

There never is in an audiophile debate.  It is a Sisyphean struggle.  And the result is that both sides are just bitter after debating instead of excited about sharing their audio gear.

[Florestan]

various bullshit, such as science, et al.

No science, ergo no recording technology, ergo no audiophiles... sometimes I do think the trade off was well worth it... 

[Iota]

Probably 99 % of everything I have wrote online has been complete waste of time.

Fwiw, imo there are no posts on this thread more persuasive than yours. And you have the great benefit of seeming to speak without guile or covert agenda, and with great knowledge at all times, which only adds to their weight.

Edit: to add that nonetheless I think the broad outline of what you wrote above is I think probably true for most of us ...

[AnotherSpin]

There never is in an audiophile debate.  It is a Sisyphean struggle.  And the result is that both sides are just bitter after debating instead of excited about sharing their audio gear.

I don't feel any bitterness. Only sympathy for colleagues hard-conditioned from the outside.

[AnotherSpin]

No science, ergo no recording technology, ergo no audiophiles... sometimes I do think the trade off was well worth it... 

Beethoven had never heard of recording technology. Neither had Mozart or Bach. They had never even seen a computer in their miserable and insignificant lives...

[Spotted Horses]

Beethoven had never heard of recording technology. Neither had Mozart or Bach. They had never even seen a computer in their miserable and insignificant lives...

Because of technology development more people have probably listed to Beethoven, Mozart and Bach in the past minute than listened to them in the entirety of their lives.

[Valentino]

A little bit of editing and the last two pages is a good Monty Python skit.

[AnotherSpin]

Because of technology development more people have probably listed to Beethoven, Mozart and Bach in the past minute than listened to them in the entirety of their lives.

Yes, and thanks to the telegraph, radio, and now the internet, people are finding out bad news incomparably sooner than they used to. What's good about that?

[71 dB]

Fwiw, imo there are no posts on this thread more persuasive than yours.

Thanks! 

And you have the great benefit of seeming to speak without guile or covert agenda, and with great knowledge at all times, which only adds to their weight.

Agenda is an ambiguous term. We all have our reasons of doing things. I am not paid to say anything and I don't have financial incentives to say these things. My "agenda" is to share science based information free of marketing bs.

Edit: to add that nonetheless I think the broad outline of what you wrote above is I think probably true for most of us ...

Maybe, but what I mean is that this is preaching to the choir. We have two treads here: What audio gear do you have? and this one. True communication is difficult.

[Iota]

Agenda is an ambiguous term. We all have our reasons of doing things. I am not paid to say anything and I don't have financial incentives to say these things. My "agenda" is to share science based information free of marketing bs.

What I mean is there are all sorts of undercurrents going on in a sometimes combative atmosphere that are apart from the matter being discussed. You however exclusively address the point in hand, saying exactly what you have observed with the wide knowledge at your disposal, which gives your posts an authority which I respect and applaud.

[AnotherSpin]

...he types on his computer, which is the culmination of three centuries of science and engineering. Why not write this insight on the wall of a cave with a charred stick?

Certainly we need to listen to the results to judge whether the design of an audio component is successful. The point is not to ignore the technical, but learn how the technical measurements and calculations are reflected in the experience. You can't design an audio component using mystical intuition. You have to design an audio component with analytical calculations and measurement of component performance. To paraphrase Einstein, you are shitting on the giant whose shoulders your are standing on.

Julius Evola: "It was science that degraded and democratized the very notion of knowledge by establishing the uniform criterion of truth and certainty based on the soulless world of numbers and the superstition represented by the "positivist" method, which is indifferent toward everything that presents a qualitative and symbolic character in empirical data. It was science that precluded any appreciation of the traditional disciplines; through the mirage of evident phenomena that are accessible to everyone science has upheld the superiority of lay culture by creating the myth of the scholar and of the scientist. It was science that, by dispelling the darkness of "superstition" and of "religion," and by insinuating the image of natural necessity, has progressively and objectively destroyed any possibility of a subtle relationship with the secret powers of things. It was science that snatched away from man the voice of the sea, the earth, and the heavens and created the myth of the "New Age of Progress," opening doors for everybody and fomenting the great rebellion of the slaves. It is science that today, by providing the instruments for the control and employment of every force of nature according to the ideals of a demonic conquest, has engendered the most formidable temptation ever to confront man: that he may mistake his renunciation as an act of real power and something to be proud of, and mistake a shadow of power for the real thing."

[Spotted Horses]

Julius Evola: ...

Never heard of him, but according to wikipedia, a fascist from Mussolini's regime, an unrepentant Nazi,  an advocate for Fascist Italy's racial laws and after the war a neo-fascist (superfascista in his own terminology) until the end of his days. But his views on stereo systems were evidently full in insight, since he is quoted here.

[AnotherSpin]

Never heard of him, but according to wikipedia, a fascist from Mussolini's regime, an unrepentant Nazi,  an advocate for Fascist Italy's racial laws and after the war a neo-fascist (superfascista in his own terminology) until the end of his days. But his views on stereo systems were evidently full in insight, since he is quoted here.

Yes, it's a popular demagogic technique to label the opponent instead of considering the arguments. The fact that you don't know Evola is fine. Independent thinkers are not specifically popular in times of decline. Evola's opinion on science was cited because the topic of science or scientific approaches has been brought up more than once in the thread.

[Spotted Horses]

Yes, it's a popular demagogic technique to label the opponent instead of considering the arguments. The fact that you don't know Evola is fine. Independent thinkers are not specifically popular in times of decline.

On the contrary, neo-Nazis and Neo-fascists and Putin apologists are having their moment here in the U.S.

I read the paragraph and formed my opinion of it before looking up the ignominious author.

[Todd]

Yes, it's a popular demagogic technique to label the opponent instead of considering the arguments. The fact that you don't know Evola is fine. Independent thinkers are not specifically popular in times of decline. Evola's opinion on science was cited because the topic of science or scientific approaches has been brought up more than once in the thread.

Good stuff.

[LKB]

From Wikipedia's entry for Julius Evola. Bolded type is my doing:

" Writings by Evola contain misogyny,[11] racism,[12] antisemitism,[13] and attacks on Christianity and the Catholic Church.[14]

Evola advocated for Fascist Italy's racial laws,[13] and eventually became Italy's leading "racial philosopher".[15] Autobiographical remarks by Evola allude to his having worked for the Sicherheitsdienst, or SD, the intelligence agency of the SS and the Nazi Party.[16][17] He fled to Nazi Germany in 1943 when the Italian Fascist regime fell, but returned to Rome under the puppet Salò government to organize a radical-right group.[18][19][20][21] In 1945 in Vienna, a Soviet shell fragment paralysed him from the waist down.[22]

On trial in 1951, Evola denied being a fascist and instead referred to himself as "superfascista" (lit. 'superfascist'). Concerning this statement, historian Elisabetta Cassina Wolff wrote that "It is unclear whether this meant that Evola was placing himself above or beyond Fascism".[23] Evola has been called the "chief ideologue" of Italy's radical right after World War II.[24] He continues to influence contemporary traditionalist and neo-fascist movements.[25][26][27][28] "

This rather repellent individual would probably rank near the bottom of my list of quotables, but perhaps others see strengths which elude me.

[DavidW]

AS you frequently conflate science and nihilism.  And your arguments seem to have been pulled from thinkers like Dostoevsky instead of anything contemporary.  Perhaps you're an old soul born in the wrong time?

[AnotherSpin]

From Wikipedia's entry for Julius Evola. Bolded type is my doing:

" Writings by Evola contain misogyny,[11] racism,[12] antisemitism,[13] and attacks on Christianity and the Catholic Church.[14]

Evola advocated for Fascist Italy's racial laws,[13] and eventually became Italy's leading "racial philosopher".[15] Autobiographical remarks by Evola allude to his having worked for the Sicherheitsdienst, or SD, the intelligence agency of the SS and the Nazi Party.[16][17] He fled to Nazi Germany in 1943 when the Italian Fascist regime fell, but returned to Rome under the puppet Salò government to organize a radical-right group.[18][19][20][21] In 1945 in Vienna, a Soviet shell fragment paralysed him from the waist down.[22]

On trial in 1951, Evola denied being a fascist and instead referred to himself as "superfascista" (lit. 'superfascist'). Concerning this statement, historian Elisabetta Cassina Wolff wrote that "It is unclear whether this meant that Evola was placing himself above or beyond Fascism".[23] Evola has been called the "chief ideologue" of Italy's radical right after World War II.[24] He continues to influence contemporary traditionalist and neo-fascist movements.[25][26][27][28] "

This rather repellent individual would probably rank near the bottom of my list of quotables, but perhaps others see strengths which elude me.

I quoted Evola because right now I'm reading his book, published in 1934. Of course, he was not the only one who was skeptical about science.