People obsessed by categories: "Soundtracks are not classical music!!!"

[San Antone]

Tangentially, I am enjoying Ken Burns' Country Music a great deal, indeed.

I love his documentary film series; and that one was well done - as usual. 

[SimonNZ]

I love his documentary film series; and that one was well done - as usual. 

I'm guessing the arbitrary cutoff date was to avoid the entire issue of "alt-country", but it meant leaving out Alison Krauss.

A very fine series besides that...as usual.

[W.A. Mozart]

To all the users who say that I wrote that classical music must be simplified to make it accessible like pop songs: I never wrote this. Give me any post in which I wrote this.

You have clearily lost the thread of the conversation.
I'll help you to find it again with a short summary.


1) In the OP I wrote that in the comments of a Youtube video containing a contemporary violin concerto, someone wrote that since in the last movement there are the chord progressions "I - V - vi - IV", the piece can not be called "classical music". This was an example of someone obsessed by categories, i.e. someone who thinks that you can formulate mathematical rules to determine the genre of a piece.

In reality, the musical categories are generic and there is only one simple rule: if it sounds like classical music, it's classical music. If it sounds like rock, it's rock. If it sounds like jazz, it's jazz.
That violin concerto sounds like classical music, so it's classical music.



2) @Luke answered to the OP by writing that he thinks that what the person in the Youtube comments wanted to say is that there are looping chords, i.e. a loop of the chords "I - V - vi - IV".
He wrote that the so called "cycle of 4" is the hallmark of popular music and that it's a technique that it's used to make music highly accessible.



3) I answered that although I agree about the fact that looping chords are used extensively in pop music, they have been used in classical music too and that the Pachelbel Canon is a good example.



4) At the end, Luke and I agreed about the fact that looping chords don't make something not classical. At this point, I wrote that I think that the main element which makes pop music more accessible than classical music is the melodic simplicity. I wrote that, according to me, if you write a song with non-repeating chords but with strong hooks, it will be easily digestible for the mass audience and that perhaps the looping chords reinforce the sense of repetition, but they are not the key element to create a song for the mass audience.

In other words: the real reason for which classical music is less accessible is the sonata-form. In a lot of highly commercial pop songs, the entire melody is constructed with a simple melodic fragment, and this is what makes pop so accessible for the mass audience.

I don't know where you read that I want classical music to be simplified. Please do not attribute things to me that I have never said.

My thesis in this discussion is not that classical music must be simplified, but that the most popular classical soundtracks should not be completely ignored by orchestras but rather played alongside classics of concert music. The point is that many fail to realize that in the modern cultural context, classical music has primarily become incidental music. While symphonies were once more relevant than incidental music, today it's the opposite: in today's context, classical music has found its place primarily in cinema. Therefore, neglecting classical soundtracks is equivalent to losing touch with the people, who are familiar with and whistle tunes of the incidental music of John Williams et al, not those of some contemporary composers of violin concertos or symphonies. Is my point clear? You may not like the fact that classical music has become primarily incidental music, but that's the reality!

Are you looking for the Eine Kleine Nachtmusik of contemporary classical music? You will find it in soundtracks!


@Florestan @SimonNZ @Karl Henning @ritter

[W.A. Mozart]

I agree with you, but I also cringe when classical music lovers say things like, "Bob Dylan is a lousy singer" or some variant of that kind of thought.

My hope for sites like TC is that lovers of any kind of music desist from taking pot shots at other kinds of music.

We both know that you are one of those elements of TC who snub determined music for matters of categories. Your idea that soundtracks are inferior to concert music.

The most brutal snobbery of the classical music world is INTERNAL, not EXTERNAL.
In other words, if you say that you like the Beatles, or even Taylor Swift, no one cares.
If you say that pop music is not inferior to classical music, you will get a lot of likes.

However, if you write that you like Violin Concerto in G minor of Alma Deutscher as much as the Violin Concerto of Mendelssohn, the people will bash you.
The relativism that many in TC promote is thrown away as soon as we talk about classical music composers.


This is why so many people in TC have aggressive attitudes towards composers of soundtracks: they know that they are classical music composers, and when they say that the music of John Williams is not classical, it's only simple snobbery.
They think that by expelling classical soundtracks from classical music they make them less noble, but this is not true, because if you tell me that film music is a separate genre of music, I can tell you that film music is high music as much as classical music. My opinion about the great Hollywood composers doesn't change just because of silly linguistic artifices.

[W.A. Mozart]

Oh, the long since tiresome "I prefer Eminem to Rilke, therefore Eminem is greater than Rilke" fallacy.

Rilke is not a musician. I was comparing Poets inside music.

You might say that Dante Alighieri was much better than Eminem, but he was not a musician. The point is that if you compare Eminem with most musicians, his lyrics are much more sophisticated.

[W.A. Mozart]

This tells be you've never seen an entire Mozart opera.

False. I've watched all complete operas of Mozart, including the ones that he composed when he was a child: "Bastien und Bastienne", "Apollo et Hyacinthus", "Die Schuldigkeit des ersten Gebots" and "La finta semplice".

"Diggi daggi" from "Bastien und Bastienne" is one of my favourites arias.

I like almost the entire production of Mozart, from the age of 7 to the age of 35. I've repeatedly listen to Mozart's pieces about which most people don't care.

This is why I have this nickname. I consider Mozart to be the greatest musical genius of the history of music.

I wonder why you've made the guy your username. I guessing you see him more as a talisman on the "not-modern", rather than as the composer of, say, string quartets.

The String Quartet No. 15 of Mozart is one of my favourite pieces of classical music.
An other one is the String Quartet No. 6 of Mendelssohn.

Perhaps the symphonic classical music is my favourite genre, but this doesn't mean that I don't like chamber music.

If what you really really want is the highest level of popularity and accessibility of orchestra-stuff then I think its Andre Rieu you're looking for. Enjoy.

I also listen to Andre Rieu, sometimes.

I like his rendition of the Ode To Joy.

Of course he is specialized on light music and not on serious classical music, but I don't snub light music, unlike many people in the classical music world.

The friction between me and many people in the world of classical music is simply due to the fact that I appreciate all tonal classical music, I don't snub anything. Others, on the contrary, think they can flaunt their immense culture by attacking light music (Andre Rieu), film composers, or Alma Deutscher. In reality, what they radiate is just arrogance, or rather, low culture.

[steve ridgway]

My thesis in this discussion is not that classical music must be simplified, but that the most popular classical soundtracks should not be completely ignored by orchestras but rather played alongside classics of concert music. The point is that many fail to realize that in the modern cultural context, classical music has primarily become incidental music. While symphonies were once more relevant than incidental music, today it's the opposite: in today's context, classical music has found its place primarily in cinema. Therefore, neglecting classical soundtracks is equivalent to losing touch with the people, who are familiar with and whistle tunes of the incidental music of John Williams et al, not those of some contemporary composers of violin concertos or symphonies. Is my point clear? You may not like the fact that classical music has become primarily incidental music, but that's the reality!

Film music might be considered a sub genre of classical music, a development perhaps of the tone poem, and if that's where the money is to be made could indeed be the dominant sub genre for composers of the future.

[W.A. Mozart]

Film music might be considered a sub genre of classical music, a development perhaps of the tone poem, and if that's where the money is to be made could indeed be the dominant sub genre for composers of the future.

I'd say that it's more like a development of incidental music for theatre.

I wouldn't compare the Imperial March of John Williams to a tone poem, but rather to a Wedding March of Mendelssohn, which was also wrote as incidental music.
The difference between the two is that the Imperial March has been written for a cinematic work, while the Wedding March for a theatrical work. The concept, however, is similar.

An other element that make soundtracks different than tone poems is that latters are written in one unique piece/movement, while soundtracks are fragmented in many different pieces like the suites written for theatrical works.

For the rest, it seems that we agree. I'd like to add that to write soundtracks help you to also promote your pieces of concert music.
I'm quite sure that many of the people who have listened to the concertos of John Williams, know him thanks to soundtracks and not thanks to his concert works.

[San Antone]

Composers will write what they choose to write (let the chips fall where they may); orchestras will program what they choose to program (let the chips fall where they may); and classical music fans will listen to/consume/support the kind of classical music they choose to (let the chips fall where they may).

I fail to see the purpose of this thread. It is a tiresome subject.

[Florestan]

the real reason for which classical music is less accessible is the sonata-form.

Right, because ALL classical music is written in sonata form...

Reducing classical music to sonata form is like reducing poetry to sonnets.

The point is that many fail to realize that in the modern cultural context, classical music has primarily become incidental music. While symphonies were once more relevant than incidental music, today it's the opposite: in today's context, classical music has found its place primarily in cinema. Therefore, neglecting classical soundtracks is equivalent to losing touch with the people, who are familiar with and whistle tunes of the incidental music of John Williams et al, not those of some contemporary composers of violin concertos or symphonies. Is my point clear? You may not like the fact that classical music has become primarily incidental music, but that's the reality!

Nonsense on stilts.

Are you looking for the Eine Kleine Nachtmusik of contemporary classical music?

No.

[steve ridgway]

"The function of pop music is to be consumed."

— Pierre Boulez

[SimonNZ]

However, if you write that you like Violin Concerto in G minor of Alma Deutscher as much as the Violin Concerto of Mendelssohn, the people will bash you.

They might *disagree* with you. You probably shouldn't be on a discussion board if you see disagreement about the relative merits of two works as "bashing", and if you simply cannot "agree to disagree" on any point.

[Florestan]

if you write that you like Violin Concerto in G minor of Alma Deutscher as much as the Violin Concerto of Mendelssohn, the people will bash you.

Did one single GMGer bash you for liking Alma Deutscher's VC? No.

Did one single GMGer denied your right to like it as much as Mendelssohn's? No.

Actually, none of us could care less what you like and what you listen to. It's only when you aggressively started to push your agenda here as well, carrying into GMG your TC fights and grievances (toxic stuff which does not concern us in the least and which we absolutely do not need), that some of us reacted by telling you to stop --- and high time to stop it is.

[W.A. Mozart]

Right, because ALL classical music is written in sonata form...

Reducing classical music to sonata form is like reducing poetry to sonnets.

Nonsense on stilts.

No.

Do you realize that if you can not digest the sonata-form, you can not digest most of the masterpieces of classical music?

You might say that you know a symphony whose movements are not written in the sonata-form, but is it in this list?

https://www.classical-music.com/features/works/20-greatest-symphonies-all-time

[Florestan]

You might say that you know a symphony whose movements are not written in the sonata-form, but is it in this list?

https://www.classical-music.com/features/works/20-greatest-symphonies-all-time

All of them, actually. There is not one single symphony, not by Haydn, not by Mozart, not by Beethoven, not by Mendelssohn, not by Mahler, not by anyone anywhere and at any time, whose movements were ALL written in sonata form. Alongside sonata form we typically have theme-and-variations (a particularly popular and attractive form which if handled by experts works wonders), minuet / scherzo (ditto) and rondo (ditto). Sonata form is just one of the many forms of classical music and your fixation on it is indeed obsessive.

Especially since the advent of Romanticism, many composers struggled with sonata form themselves or even discarded it altogether, which did not prevent them from writing masterpieces nevertheless. Not to mention that in vocal music, from Lieder to opera to oratorios, sonata form plays no role whatsoever. I sometimes got the impression that your knowledge of classical music is very scant.

[Mandryka]

Anyone read Hans Keller's book on film music?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Film-Music-Beyond-Keller-Archive/dp/0954012372?ref_=ast_author_dp&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.tcnyTdDt78IX5Kj9M4iuuFTjhYqxWN-lYJ79wIFqx_DqnpOuLS-E6magNX-gkNX7zw9EWHnG2bn0qvvU5YKu8wBDc4jpxeBxcmx3rOK0IPrx-_tG5TDH2ntaBrwmiIbpCvZQ8pu2VnaisitNUs8RFn8d3iSBV6N7Wk7_G6HWn0N8r0e-9F8LZI7bfau2qA1r.D8qTzwy4VBaij63jBHCfAkY73YLEvMHAEY1eEuU_ZUM&dib_tag=AUTHOR

[W.A. Mozart]

They might *disagree* with you. You probably shouldn't be on a discussion board if you see disagreement about the relative merits of two works as "bashing", and if you simply cannot "agree to disagree" on any point.

Do you call this "healthy criticism"?


Some comments about the VC of Alma Deutscher.

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Horrible. Awful pedestrian writing. Oh, and just in case I forgot to mention, this was HORRIBLE!

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She obviously has some talent (and perhaps a future) as a violinist. But how will she ever come back from what has been done to her by those who handle her? They have really harmed her and should be ashamed of themselves. But are there really some of our members who actually enjoy (and perhaps are even inspired by) this music? That is hard to believe and, I fear, contributes to the damage being done to her.


------

When I was her age my "repertoire" as a listener - the music that might have fed a fantasy that I was a composer - was only 50 years out of date. It was some while before I liked some of the more contemporary music (but I was already a big fan of Britten and Tippett). I would have found what she does vulgar even then. I imagine grannies (I intend no offense to real life grannies) with limited experience with classical music being impressed by pretty music that reminds them of one of the pieces they have on that classical sampler they listen to. They might even feel she was a genius.


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No discussion of Alma should exclude her father. It's the only reason why she's famous. Youthful talent isn't the reason. Those of us who work with young composers frequently encounter youths with her level of talent.
Dealing with (Guy) Deutscher. – Bad Blog Of Musick - nmz Klassik-Blog

I'm not anti-Alma. I'm anti-cult of Alma her father produced. If you went through music conservatory, about 10% have her level of skill but none have her dad's diva level impact. She's ordinary as an extradentary student frequently encountered but none of which become known except for her having her diva demanding father.

Alma is a product of her father and no discussion of her should exclude that.

--------

I hate to be speculative, but at the rate she's going, she'll soon be on tour with André Rieu with Yanni as an opening act. Or will Alma and André be the opening act? Oh well, I'm sure they'll figure it out.

--------

Hate? You lost me, there. I certainly hate the circus that has grown up around her - including your own contribution to that.

The music is not embarrassing because she is a little girl. It's embarrassing because so much fuss is made over it. By all means praise her within the family and put the picture she painted on the fridge door. But the music might be embarrassing for those who take it seriously (I would certainly be embarrassed if I was one of them). It is also potentially embarrassing for the little girl when she is grown up and looks back at the claims that people were making for her (and with her willing participation). I suppose she has a future as her day's Andre Rieu which to me would be a waste of what is evidently a talent.

--------


-------

A lot of people love canned pasta too. Goes down easy.

-------

if you want me to believe that she is fully capable of writing music as complex as Tristan, La Mer, Rite of Spring, etc. but chooses to write her baby music, that is an extraordinary claim and I will need to see some evidence please. As it stands, I don't believe you.

-------

Mozart wrote his first composition at age 5 and even then he was far more masterful and accomplished than Alma.

-------



The last one is subtle: someone might say that it's only a personal opinion presented in a polite way.

Well, it's not, because reporting false information is defamation, not an opinion.


You can not say that in the compositions of the 5 years old Mozart there is more craftmanship than in the VC of Alma Deutscher.

What I want to say is really simple: "healthy criticism" means to explain what can be improved in a work according to you.

The ones above are malignant, personal attacks towards Alma Detuscher.

After the many attacks, me and an other person have written that we like very much the piece, and we have been laughed at for this.

Did one single GMGer bash you for liking Alma Deutscher's VC? No.

Did one single GMGer denied your right to like it as much as Mendelssohn's? No.

Actually, none of us could care less what you like and what you listen to.

The world of classical music doesn't end in GMG. We're in a classical music forum, it's the right place to speak about the issues of the classical music world.

It's only when you aggressively started to push your agenda here as well

I don't see what's aggresive in my posts. Do you see any insult, offense or attack towards other members? If you think that to create debates means to be aggressive, you have a strange view about aggressiveness.

that some of us reacted by telling you to stop --- and high time to stop it is.

You told me that I can not ask "what do you think about this piece?".

You told me that I can't post youtube videos in a section called "Classical Youtube Video Library".

Now you are telling me that I can not create debates in a section for debates.


Simply say that you want me dead because everything I do is wrong!


Now, can you explain why this is not the right forum or section to create debates, even controversial debates?

[Florestan]

I don't see what's aggresive in my posts. Do you see any insult, offense or attack towards other members? If you think that to create debates means to be aggressive, you have a strange view about aggressiveness.

You don't create debates. You stir the shit and then complain about getting dirty.

You told me that I can not ask "what do you think about this piece?".

Wrong. I told you to post your own opinion before asking somebody else to post theirs.

You told me that I can't post youtube videos in a section called "Classical Youtube Video Library".

Wrong. I told you that by posting those videos which pretty much nobody's interested in anyway you waste band with which could be put to better use.

Now you are telling me that I can not create debates in a section for debates.

Wrong. What I'm telling you is not that you are in the wrong section, but that you might be in the wrong forum.

[Karl Henning]

Point of information: rant is not debate.

[SimonNZ]

Do you call this "healthy criticism"?


Some comments about the VC of Alma Deutscher.

Heh. Actually most of that seems pretty reasonable. Especially if you started with the declaration that she was carrying the torch of modern classical.

After the many attacks, me and an other person have written that we like very much the piece, and we have been laughed at for this.

Oh harden up.

And it's not you liking something that they're laughing at - it's the zealotry.