People obsessed by categories: "Soundtracks are not classical music!!!"

[W.A. Mozart]

All of them, actually. There is not one single symphony, not by Haydn, not by Mozart, not by Beethoven, not by Mendelssohn, not by Mahler, not by anyone anywhere and at any time, whose movements were ALL written in sonata form. Alongside sonata form we typically have theme-and-variations (a particularly popular and attractive form which if handled by experts works wonders), minuet / scherzo (ditto) and rondo (ditto). Sonata form is just one of the many forms of classical music and your fixation on it is indeed obsessive.

Especially since the advent of Romanticism, many composers struggled with sonata form themselves or even discarded it altogether, which did not prevent them from writing masterpieces nevertheless. Not to mention that in vocal music, from Lieder to opera to oratorios, sonata form plays no role whatsoever. I sometimes got the impression that your knowledge of classical music is very scant.

First movement: sonata

Second movement: tripartite form, reminescent of the sonata-form

Third movement: minuet & trio OR scherzo

Fourth movement: sonata or rondo



So, the first movement always written in the sonata-form, the fourth movement often written in the sonata-form, the second movement written in a form which is close to the sonata-form and only the third movement written in a quite simple form.

Are you saying that we should tell the people who don't digest complex forms to only listen to the minuet & trio?
Why should they spend their time with classical music if there are genres which make things simple by default?


Yes, the sonata-form was discarded by some composers, who usually further increased the complexity of the form.
Infact a through-composed piece is more complex than a piece written in sonata-form.


I'm not obsessed with the sonata-form. It's that you are missing the point.

This is the typical pop song.

In the first 10 seconds a melodic fragment is exposed. The rest is only a repetition or a slight variation of the same melodic fragment.

At the end of the song, whose length is 280 seconds, you have been exposed to 28 sequential repetitions of a melody.

Since the perceived beauty of a melody increases with repetition, because repetition helps you to internalize the melody and become obsessed by it, this form gives you instant gratification.


The point is not in how many pieces are written specifically in the sonata-form.

The point is that I can't think of any piece of classical music written in such a simplistic form, with the same melody fired like a machine gun, with sequential repetition for 280 seconds.

There is also the fact that not always the themes in classical music are singable, and to be able to sing a melody is the key element to be able to interiorize it.

[W.A. Mozart]

Heh. Actually most of that seems pretty reasonable. Especially if you started with the declaration that she was carrying the torch of modern classical.

No, it was a poll which asked "How do you rate the violin concerto of Alma Deutscher?". The users were answering an open question.

The answers were not reasonable.
A group of them can be summarized with "you can not compose this kind of music today", but these people fail to realize that art is not prescriptive.
It's like to say "you can not use minor chords".

How would you feel if I told you that a composer you like is incompetent because he uses minor chords?



An other person says that the 10% of people in the conservatoir have the craftmanship to write a similar concerto, which is an other unfair observation, since the people in the conservatoir are not 9 years old.
What happens if you consider only 9 years old children?

Furthermore, the craftmanship is not everything. There is a thing called "inspiration". I strongly support that Alma Deutscher is melodically inspired. There are people who know everything about music theory and composition but that they are not able to write powerful melodies.

Among the people who attacked Alma Deutscher there is a composer whose music is, IMO, quite weak in terms of inspiration. He also attacks Hans Zimmer, but I find the soundtrack he wrote for a film weak and uninspired compared to the soundtracks for which Hans Zimmer is praised by many people.



The comparision with Andre Rieu are idiot, because Riue is specialized on light music, and the Violin Concerto of Alma Deutscher is not light music, but serious classical music.

Finally, the guy who wrote that Mozart had a greater craftmanship at the age of 5 is absurd. There is no piece composed by the 5 years old Mozart that can be compared to the VC of Alma Deutscher.


The first piece of Mozart that can be compared to the VC of Alma Deutscher is the Waisenhaus Mass, so in terms of craftmanship we can say that the 9 years old Alma = 12 years old Mozart.
5 years old Mozart > 9 years old Alma (in terms of craftmanship) is pure fantasy.

[Florestan]

Are you saying that we should tell the people who don't digest complex forms to only listen to the minuet & trio?

People who "don't digest complex forms" will never listen to classical music because classical music IS about complex forms and cannot be simplified. It's as simple ([pun) as that.

Why should they spend their time with classical music if there are genres which make things simple by default?

Exactly my point. They should stick to the music they enjoy. There is absolutely no problem whatsoever with that.

The point is that I can't think of any piece of classical music written in such a simplistic form, with the same melody fired like a machine gun, with sequential repetition for 280 seconds.

Precisely. Classical music is a complex form of music which requires intellectual and emotional effort and long attention spans. Not everybody is interested in such efforts nor has such attention spans, preferring simpler music which gives them instant gratification. There is absolutely no problem whatsoever with that. Everybody listens to exactly the kind of music which offers them the greatest reward commensurate with their intellectual and emotional investment, not to mention their time and money. The only problem is your misguided and misjudged insistence that these people should, or could, be somehow lured into classical music too.

There is also the fact that not always the themes in classical music are singable, and to be able to sing a melody is the key element to be able to interiorize it.

Beside the fact that there is a difference between singable and hummable, vocal music is part and parcel of classical music and for centuries has actually been it's backbone. The most popular form of classical music was in fact opera, which is all about singing.

But once again, this doesn't mean in the least that fans of Britney Spears should be somehow lured into listening to Zefiro torna, Le nozze di Figaro, Winterreise or A Chloris --- and once again and once for all: there is absolutely no problem whatsoever with them disliking the latter and sticking to the former. None at all --- except in your head, that is.

[W.A. Mozart]

Composers will write what they choose to write (let the chips fall where they may); orchestras will program what they choose to program (let the chips fall where they may); and classical music fans will listen to/consume/support the kind of classical music they choose to (let the chips fall where they may).

I fail to see the purpose of this thread. It is a tiresome subject.

Do you want to know where do the chips fall?

These are the statistics of my Youtube channel.



Despite the fact that most of the music I upload is classical concert music, most of my popular videos contain soundtracks of films or videogames. Only one of my popular videos contains concert music (a piece of Bach).

My most popular video (21'253 views), as you can see, is the one with the soundtrack of the English Patient.

orchestras will program what they choose to program (let the chips fall where they may)

Many symphonic orchestras are sustained by public funds, so the market logics are not applied.

If the market logics were applied, they would have to play the suite of the English Patient.

I'm seriously worried for the future of classical music: if the people in the world of the classical music will fail to connect to the real world in the next years, the classical music listener might become very soon like the Panda.

Perhaps the solution is to remove the public funds.

[Florestan]

he first piece of Mozart that can be compared to the VC of Alma Deutscher is the Waisenhaus Mass, so in terms of craftmanship we can say that the 9 years old Alma = 12 years old Mozart.
5 years old Mozart > 9 years old Alma (in terms of craftmanship) is pure fantasy.

The problem with this comparison is that almost 250 years after his death Mozart is celebrated and revered for the works he wrote after he turned 20, and his most beloved and universally acclaimed masterpieces were written mainly in his thirties. Let's wait and see what Alma Deutscher writes in her thirties and whether 250 years after her death these works will be universally acclaimed and loved as masterpieces.

[W.A. Mozart]

The problem with this comparison is that almost 250 years after his death Mozart is celebrated and revered for the works he wrote after he turned 20, and his most beloved and universally acclaimed masterpieces were written mainly in his thirties. Let's wait and see what Alma Deutscher writes in her thirties and whether 250 years after her death these works will be universally acclaimed and loved as masterpieces.

The comparision is between the craftmanship of the prepubescent Alma and the prepubescent Mozart.
The rest is not relevant.

I also bet that Alma Deutscher will be not productive as much as Mozart, overall. Why? First of all because Mozart was a notes machine, and most composers wouldn't be able to follow his compositional rythm.
Second, because that machine called "Mozart" lived in a healthy society which encouraged his art and his talent, while today we live in a dirty world where adult males attack a 9 years old child prodigy like if it was sidewalk poop.

[W.A. Mozart]

Point of information: rant is not debate.

As I've already written, I'm not ranting. It's a debate about peope who rant. I might change the title with "Why do many people in the classical music world rant against soundtracks?".




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"Nate Miller is taking the right tack. There's no point feeding this view from children who are in love with and get excited over film music jingles and then want to bring them into the classical music fold on some personal mission."

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""if you are trying to say that video game music and TV spots are art music you have one more screw loose than I thought

I actually play, so you aren't going to be able to convince me that film music is on the same level as the Beethoven Sonata I was working on this weekend""

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""I bet he [John Williams] is referring to his classical/concert works, you know the pieces you don't like, the violin and cello concertos for example. He's not so stupid as to think his film work is written in totally the same manner and comes from the same place as his classical work.""

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"It's so hilarious that some posters think film music is as good as, or better, than the music of Bach or Beethoven. Sorry but just because you don't understand the depths of Bach's or Beethoven's music, it does not mean that it is comparable to film music. I'm reminded of a blind person trying to convince those who can see that stick men is better art than Monet (or pick your favorite painter)."

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«Further, hz [Hans Zimmer] is a brand and a name that people pay for now, which is a ridiculous concept created by this idiotic industry and has helped create this mess.
[...]
Or like saying we can conclude hitler had good ideas because he had millions of supporters so he couldn't have been that wrong.»

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«We can all call our music whatever we want and other people can laugh at us.»

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«The question for me is always, why would I categorize it as classical? Why would we teach young people that it's a classical work? What will happen if we do?[...]Young people can easily be turned off by the dumbing down and relativism all around them.»

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«This conversation is silly, with you and others acting like there is no difference between the market and audience expectations that all composers from Bach to John Adams write within and the work-for-hire that film composers are working under.»

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«I'm surprised that as an educator you're not concerned about the natural laziness of students and the dumbing down of categories»


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«Think about the consequences when any technical subject is dumbed down.»


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«I find Gladiator unwatchable because of the crudity of the soundtrack.[...]Films have been 'downgraded' to a certain extent because the audience is younger [and more stupid? or at least less educated]»


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"I have a keen ear. I am a musician.[...]The music to Pearl Harbor is trite output. I have to say now that I don't really care if someone says 'Oh but it moved me so much!' Big deal. That's not a critical appreciation. And with a carefully-crafted get-out clause of claimng to love the music for its own sake completely disassociated from the film. I don't even believe the get-out clause, I think it's just a made-up lie for the sake of argument.[...]I really don't care what awards are mentioned or what ratings of Classic FM say. Classic FM is not a serious classical music radio station, it is a 'classic pops' station. One that also has broadened out to include popular film scores for the sake of its middling listenership. It is largely concerned with revenue, not 'art'.

Hans Zimmer is a rock musician-turned-hack film composer. I know some people think his music is godly. I don't.»


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«That you think they are "the best soundtracks of the last decades" is laughable really and says more about the rapid decline of film music.»


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«Anyway, I'm not attacking your taste, I'm attacking your silly assertion that film music can stand with the best of what classical music has to offer. It can't and never will.»


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«You can argue for a myopic dumbing down of music and a return to a different age as much as you want though, fortunately it'll have zero impact on the profession.»


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«Right, so it's still running [the old tonal classical music] then. Best send in the clowns [composers of soundtracks] to divert everything.»

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«You "quote" me saying something I don't remember saying in this thread and something I certainly wouldn't have said because the music that accompanied the first Star Wars film gets played in concerts. I would have said "so what?" and "what has that got to do with its merit?" 22 years is nothing and there will always be a big audience for the trashy.

Personally, I think we can tell quite a lot about how well a piece will survive over centuries. Some will be popular as well while other pieces may - like much of Mozart and Beethoven - be for more refined tastes.»


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«This is madness of the sort [people who think that some soundtracks are excellent music like the best concert works of classical music] that might be expected in a thread of more than 100 pages on whether or not film music stands up as classical.»

[Florestan]

"Mozart" lived in a healthy society which encouraged his art and his talent,

Where did you read that?

while today we live in a dirty world where adult males attack a 9 years old child prodigy like if it was sidewalk poop.

If you conflate the world of internet boards with the world, maybe. In the real world, though, Alma Deutscher's works were performed by herself accompanied by professional orchestras consisting of and conducted by adult males in concerts for the attendance of which adult males paid admission fees and at the end of which they applauded enthusiastically. Moreover, adult males have awarded her prizes.

This is what the real world looks like:

    In May 2021, Deutscher received the Leonardo da Vinci International Award of 11 European Rotary Clubs. At age 16, she was the youngest person in the history of the prize ever to receive it.[75]
    In October 2019, Deutscher was awarded the European Culture Prize (Young Generation Award) in a ceremony at the Vienna State Opera.[76][77]
    In October 2019, Deutscher received the Beijing Music Festival Young Artist Award in a ceremony in Beijing.[78]
    In September 2019, Deutscher was chosen by the German magazine Stern as one of its twelve "Heroes of Tomorrow". At 14, she was the youngest of the twelve to be chosen, with the other eleven ranging in age from 27 to 43.[79]

Notable performances, recordings and publications

Deutscher has played her own music as soloist with renowned orchestras across the world, including the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra,[80][81] Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra,[82] Mozarteum Orchestra Salzburg, Vienna Chamber Orchestra,[83][84] Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, Shenzhen Symphony Orchestra (China), Lucerne Symphony Orchestra (Switzerland), Vancouver Symphony Orchestra, Orchestra of St. Luke's (New York). She has also given recitals of her own compositions in the renowned Lucerne Festival (Switzerland)[85] and Aix-en-Provence Festival (France).[86] At the invitation of the Austrian Chancellor, she has performed at the Chancellery in Vienna on several state occasions, including in 2018 at a service commemorating the end of the Second World War in Europe.[87]

[W.A. Mozart]

Beside the fact that there is a difference between singable and hummable, vocal music is part and parcel of classical music and for centuries has actually been it's backbone. The most popular form of classical music was in fact opera, which is all about singing.

Things that are singable for people with high training, not for a person with no musical education who want to whistle a simple motif under the shower.

But once again, this doesn't mean in the least that fans of Britney Spears should be somehow lured into listening to Zefiro torna, Le nozze di Figaro, Winterreise or A Chloris --- and once again and once for all: there is absolutely no problem whatsoever with them disliking the latter and sticking to the former. None at all --- except in your head, that is.

In Italy the popular culture is very low/dumb. Many people think that the root cause of this is the trash of Mediaset (the television of Berlusconi), mixed with the trash of the italian cinema, mixed probably with trash of the italian popular music of the last years.

High arts are the emotional connection to the high culture. What does happen in a democracy if high arts die in favour of low arts?
That the politics will be driven by a low culture.

[Florestan]

"Why do many people in the classical music world rant against soundtracks?".

What people in the classical music world rant against soundtracks? Give us some names of conductors, composers, instrumentalists, singers or managers who did that.

As to why anonymous posters on internet boards rant against soundtracks (which is the only evidence you ever adduced for your assertion), I don't know and I don't care. They are not people in the classical music world, they are just that, anonymous posters on internet boards. What they rant against and why is of no relevance whatsoever to the classical music world and only a person completely out of touch with reality can be obsessed by them.

[Florestan]

Things that are singable for people with high training, not for a person with no musical education who want to whistle a simple motif under the shower.

Literally tons of such stuff in the world of opera, especially Italian and French. (I am a person with no musical education whatsoever yet I can hum or whistle in the shower lots of music from Carmen, Il barbiere di Siviglia and Don Giovanni, to name only three examples out of a few dozens. 

[Spotted Horses]

Are you saying that we should tell the people who don't digest complex forms to only listen to the minuet & trio?
Why should they spend their time with classical music if there are genres which make things simple by default?

We should tell people people that if they are so inclined they can pay attention to the structure of the music they are listing to and be aware of how it is shaped by Sonata form, or they can simply go along for the ride, and that sonata form is the underlying structure guiding the musical drama. There is nothing unnatural about Sonata form. Stripped of the musical technicalities it is: main musical theme and secondary musical theme are presented, harmonically unstable passages takes the listener on a journey far from the original material. The journey leads back to the original theme. The existence of sonata form makes it easier, not harder, to appreciate an extended musical piece, whether you pay attention to the form or not. You don't have a tick off the sections to enjoy the music. Sometimes I like to keep track of the structure, sometimes not.

After all these pages, I have no idea what your point is. There is music that is conceived to be simple and attractive, and there is music that is complex and is appreciated by people who have long experience with it. There is a continuum, and there are crossovers, excerpts of larger works that become popular and popular forms that transcend the typical limitations. Film music is a "special effect" which borrows from many genres, often classical. A small fraction of it is truly original and deserves to be performed in a dedicated concert, and some of it has.

[Karl Henning]

We should tell people people that if they are so inclined they can pay attention to the structure of the music they are listing to and be aware of how it is shaped by Sonata form, or they can simply go along for the ride, and that sonata form is the underlying structure guiding the musical drama. There is nothing unnatural about Sonata form. Stripped of the musical technicalities it is: main musical theme and secondary musical theme are presented, harmonically unstable passages takes the listen on a journey far from the original material. The journey leads back to the original theme. The existence of sonata form makes it easier, not harder, to appreciate and extended musical piece, whether you pay attention to the form or not. You don't have a tick off the sections to enjoy the music. Sometimes I like to keep track of the structure, sometimes not.

After all these pages, I have no idea what your point is. There is music that is conceived to be simple and attractive, and there is music that is complex and is appreciated by people who have long experience with it. There is a continuum, and there are crossovers, excerpts of larger works that become popular and popular forms that transcend the typical limitations. Film music is a "special effect" which borrows from many genres, often classical. A small fraction of it is truly original and deserves to be performed in a dedicated concert, and some of it has.

Pretty clear by now, too, who the genuinely "obsessed" party is.

[DavidW]

I'm seriously worried for the future of classical music: if the people in the world of the classical music will fail to connect to the real world in the next years, the classical music listener might become very soon like the Panda.

Perhaps the solution is to remove the public funds.

lol the real world.  What!?  Please join us in it.  I know so many people that discovered classical music because they play an instrument or their parents took them to the concert.  When I got into classical music, I had some difficulty; but just by relistening to the works until they clicked I got it.  I didn't need formal training to enjoy the music.  But of course the music courses I took later did help.

I know that you enjoy classical music, so I'm not sure what imaginary audience you are representing??

[Florestan]

We should tell people people that if they are so inclined they can pay attention to the structure of the music they are listing to and be aware of how it is shaped by Sonata form, or they can simply go along for the ride, and that sonata form is the underlying structure guiding the musical drama. There is nothing unnatural about Sonata form. Stripped of the musical technicalities it is: main musical theme and secondary musical theme are presented, harmonically unstable passages takes the listen on a journey far from the original material. The journey leads back to the original theme. The existence of sonata form makes it easier, not harder, to appreciate and extended musical piece, whether you pay attention to the form or not. You don't have a tick off the sections to enjoy the music. Sometimes I like to keep track of the structure, sometimes not.

After all these pages, I have no idea what your point is. There is music that is conceived to be simple and attractive, and there is music that is complex and is appreciated by people who have long experience with it. There is a continuum, and there are crossovers, excerpts of larger works that become popular and popular forms that transcend the typical limitations. Film music is a "special effect" which borrows from many genres, often classical. A small fraction of it is truly original and deserves to be performed in a dedicated concert, and some of it has.

Excellent post.

[San Antone]

Stripped of the musical technicalities it is: main musical theme and secondary musical theme are presented, harmonically unstable passages takes the listen on a journey far from the original material. The journey leads back to the original theme. The existence of sonata form makes it easier, not harder, to appreciate and extended musical piece, whether you pay attention to the form or not. You don't have a tick off the sections to enjoy the music. Sometimes I like to keep track of the structure, sometimes not.

I doubt if any composer during the periods when "sonata form" was dominant ever thought of it as you describe, i. a cookie cutter form - the term didn't even exist until later theorists coined it.  Composers were very creative in how they wrote in this style.

[Florestan]

I'm seriously worried for the future of classical music

Is this really a concern that disrupts your appetite, troubles your sleep and destroys your peace of mind? If yes, you should seek professional help. If no, you should stop making such a fuss about it.

[Spotted Horses]

I doubt if any composer during the periods when "sonata form" was dominant ever thought of it as you describe, i. a cookie cutter form - the term didn't even exist until later theorists coined it.  Composers were very creative in how they wrote in this style.

As I read somewhere, Sonata form was an expansion of the ABA form that was ubiquitous in the pre-classical era - such as the individual variations in the Goldberg Variations - and was preserved in the typical menuetto and trio of the classical era (both the menuetto and trio were in ABA form). The B section starts out more harmonically adventurous and leads to a repeat of the original material, although not necessarily a literal repeat. The thing got more elaborate and became Sonata form. I don't think it was a coincidence that Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, wrote movements that stated a theme, followed with a theme in the dominant or relative major, and after a sort of fantasia ended up stating both themes in the key of the initial theme. It wasn't "cookie cutter," but it was a scaffolding that allowed a listener not to be adrift when they had only one chance in their life to listen to a piece performed live.

[Karl Henning]

As I read somewhere, Sonata form was an expansion of the ABA form that was ubiquitous in the pre-classical era - such as the individual variations in the Goldberg Variations - and was preserved in the typical menuetto and trio of the classical era (both the menuetto and trio were in ABA form). The B section starts out more harmonically adventurous and leads to a repeat of the original material, although not necessarily a literal repeat. The thing got more elaborate and became Sonata form. I don't think it was a coincidence that Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, wrote movements that stated a theme, followed with a theme in the dominant or relative major, and after a sort of fantasia ended up stating both themes in the key of the initial theme. It wasn't "cookie cutter," but it was a scaffolding that allowed a listener not to be adrift when they had only one chance in their life to listen to a piece performed live.

There are conceptual and historical ties to both ternary and binary, underscoring the pervasive fact that composers did what they felt worked, rather than concern themselves with "clean theory" beforehand.

[SimonNZ]

The point is that I can't think of any piece of classical music written in such a simplistic form, with the same melody fired like a machine gun, with sequential repetition for 280 seconds.

Its classical and its a soundtrack and its highly repetitive and I can hum it at work and it builds to an emotional crescendo and it sold well with buyers outside the classical world.

This has got to be just about perfection for you, right?

Finally something we can agree on and both enjoy together.