The Audiophile Debate

[AnotherSpin]

What even is "the reality" to you?

It is simply knowing that I am, here and now. It is the only reality. The permanent in the fleeting, the one constant factor in every experience. All else is temporal and transient, that is unreal.

[Florestan]

It is simply knowing that I am, here and now. It is the only reality.

And yet the existence of other realities than your own being can be demonstrated by a very simple experiment: just bang your head as hard as you can against the nearest wall. 

[AnotherSpin]

And yet the existence of other realities than your own being can be demonstrated by a very simple experiment: just bang your head as hard as you can against the nearest wall. 

You talk about experience, it comes and goes.

[Florestan]

You talk about experience, it comes and goes.

And yet every time that experiment is performed, the same result obtains, irrespective of who performs it on which wall. That's permanence in a nutshell.

[AnotherSpin]

And yet every time that experiment is performed, the same result obtains, irrespective of who performs it on which wall. That's permanence in a nutshell.

Oh, really? I've never once banged my head against a wall, and neither has anyone I know, to my knowledge.

[Florestan]

Oh, really? I've never once banged my head against a wall, and neither has anyone I know, to my knowledge.

That's because you are afraid of reality. 

[AnotherSpin]

That's because you are afraid of reality. 

Nope, it's because I have no need to bang my head against the wall to prove anything to anyone

[Spotted Horses]

What is being described by AnotherSpin seems like a version of George Berkeley's philosophy of "immaterialism." I think it is nowadays studied for how ingeniously it develops an idea which gives no practical guidance on how one should live. Some time ago I was idly reading Bertrand Russell's The Problems of Philosophy, where he treated Berkeley at some length. It is hard to absolutely disprove the sophomoric idea that "the whole universe is just a dream I am having," but Russell does his best.

[DavidW]

Nope, it's because I have no need to bang my head against the wall to prove anything to anyone

But you're banging your head against the wall right now!

[DavidW]

What is being described by AnotherSpin seems like a version of George Berkeley's philosophy of "immaterialism." I think it is nowadays studied for how ingeniously it develops an idea which gives no practical guidance on how one should live. Some time ago I was idly reading Bertrand Russell's The Problems of Philosophy, where he treated Berkeley at some length. It is hard to absolutely disprove the sophomoric idea that "the whole universe is just a dream I am having," but Russell does his best.

Oh I thought it was the adolescent identity development stage in psychology where you can't separate yourself from the rest of the world.

[AnotherSpin]

But you're banging your head against the wall right now!

Merely answering the questions. I could stop, but that would be not polite.

[Spotted Horses]

Oh I thought it was the adolescent identity development stage in psychology where you can't separate yourself from the rest of the world.

Berkeley had his day in the early 20th century because there were echos of his ideas in the science of the time - Einstein's insight in Special Relativity that time and space are not absolute and the finding of quantum mechanics that a physical variable does not have a reality until it is measured. But those were observable phenomena whereas there is nothing in Berkeley that is observable or actionable in the real world. Bertrans Russell really ties himself in knots trying to argue against Berkeley's theory, which is surprisingly slippery.

[Florestan]

Merely answering the questions. I could stop, but that would be not polite.

I didn't ask you any questions. 

[AnotherSpin]

I didn't ask you any questions. 

Right, you just suggested I bang my head against the wall as hard as I can. My bad, I didn't hold back and replied.

[Florestan]

you just suggested I bang my head against the wall as hard as I can.

Well, you are the only reality and the wall is unreal --- what harm can it do to you then?

[drogulus]

    There are propositions that can't be falsified.

   

    I once saw Dan Dennett speak about his latest book (many years ago) and sitting next to him was Hilary Putnam, author of a well known argument invalidating all brain-vat/matrix/demon scenarios. All of them are equivalent to their negation and therefore meaningless.

[AnotherSpin]

Well, you are the only reality and the wall is unreal --- what harm can it do to you then?

In order to find common ground, we need to agree on who am I. Obviously we see this differently. And it seems to me that the disagreement is insurmountable for several different reasons.

[Valentino]

I find the new thread title quite appropriate.

[Florestan]

it seems to me that the disagreement is insurmountable for several different reasons.

We are in perfect agreement (pun). 

[AnotherSpin]

Berkeley had his day in the early 20th century because there were echos of his ideas in the science of the time - Einstein's insight in Special Relativity that time and space are not absolute and the finding of quantum mechanics that a physical variable does not have a reality until it is measured. But those were observable phenomena whereas there is nothing in Berkeley that is observable or actionable in the real world. Bertrans Russell really ties himself in knots trying to argue against Berkeley's theory, which is surprisingly slippery.

I don't remember what Russell said about Berkeley. Did he mention that solipsism cannot be disproved in principle? I'm not going to go into detail, but what I'm saying is far from Berkeley. You can also mention Descartes and Schopenhauer, but the point is that this is not about philosophy at all.