People obsessed by categories: "Soundtracks are not classical music!!!"

[SimonNZ]

So, when it comes to composers in general, Mozart is the winner. However, John Williams is the winner for the category "living composers".

However, this is an argumentum ad populum.

[W.A. Mozart]

Does this have to be separate from your other film music rant thread?

The intention was to simply speak about statistics, but I see that the moderators have decided that the topic is related with this one.

And, BTW, doesn't this negate your extended rant about soundtracks? Film music is being performed.

No, because my discussion is about the many people who rant for the fact that determined soundtracks are considered classical music.
I already know the direction of society.

It's like to say: the western countries are creating the homosexual marriage. Why do many people rant against it?
Yes, I know the direction of the western countries, but there is still the fact that many people rant against this direction.

The same for soundtracks.

For the rest, if the music of John Williams is performed together with the classics of concert music, these events help promoting classical music, but if they are performed separately there is the risk that some people don't realize the connection with classical music and they think that the style of John Williams et al. is a modern invention.

[W.A. Mozart]

@SimonNZ there is not an argument ad populum in my post, because I've only reported statistics. I've not written that they are the demonistration that Mozart has been the best composer and that John Williams is the best living composer.

The logical fallacy is in your last post: it's a strawman.


The only thing I want to say about the matter of popularity, is that if the people like something and the classical musicians ignore it, classical music will lose popularity.
The people who want to see the classical soundtracks expelled from classical music clearily want to destroy the popularity of classical music.

[W.A. Mozart]

Two unengaged rants for the price of one!

I don't know what you are speaking about. I only reported statistics and I didn't even comment on them. This post shows that you read imaginary things. You should read what I write, not what you want to read.

[71 dB]

I watch lots of movie reaction videos on Youtube. I also watch music theory videos including analyse of movie music. Watching those videos make it very clear how admired John Williams is. For example Charles Cornell is quite fanatic about John Williams. I think it is pretty safe to bet of all music created in my lifetime John Williams' scores or at least the famous themes from movies are still listened to and enjoyed in the future. Perhaps it is easier for the future generations to see contemporary movie music performed with an orchestra as "classical music."

Whether something belongs to a set depends on how the set is defined. Classical music can be defined in ways that clearly exclude John Williams' soundtracks. However doing so may also exclude music such as operas and ballets which are kind of precursors for film scores. Excluding or including things from a set tells very little about the things. All it tells is how the set was defined. The question of whether soundtracks are classical music or not is looking at the problem from the wrong perspective. The correct question is how should classical music be defined? These questions can be tricky to answer (what kind of convoluted, even insane, rules include just the music and nothing else one wants to be included?) and I tend to have relaxed attitude about it. I don't really care if John Williams' scores are included in the set of classical music or not. It doesn't change how the music improves the movies for me. The definition of classical music can change depending on the context. Compared to Beethoven and Mozart, John Williams' scores look less like classical music, but compared to Tangerine Dreams' synth music for movies it does look more like classical music.

I have my own principles for how to arrange my CDs on my shelves. I separate movie soundtracks from classical music, but I have to make compromises: Is John Williams' Violin and Flute Concertos classical music or do I move them with the movie scores of John Williams? I did the latter, because John Williams' output and what he is best known for is movie scores and I want all his music in the same place, on the shelf of movie soundtracks. On the other hand, Tangerine Dreams's soundtracks are with the other music of Tangerine Dream, because most of Tangerine Dream is not music for movies.

[71 dB]

This post shows that you read imaginary things.

There is a difference in reading between the lines and taking it too far. 

[W.A. Mozart]

I don't really care if John Williams' scores are included in the set of classical music or not. It doesn't change how the music improves the movies for me.

You're taking it in the wrong way. It's not a matter of quality (if someone thinks that the music of John Williams is excellent he doesn't need to demonstrate that it's classical music to support his opinion and on the other hand someone who thinks that it's bad music doesn't need to demonostrate that it's not classical music). The point is: if you own a radio station specialized on classical music, what do you transmit? Do you transmit classical-style soundtracks or not?

If you are a conductor and you have to write a program for a classical music concert, do you include classical-style soundtracks or not?


Many people think that some soundtracks are classical, so they are promoted by some classical music radios and perhaps played in some events of classical music. There are people who rant against this classification and in the OP I summarized their arguments.

The definition of classical music can change depending on the context. Compared to Beethoven and Mozart, John Williams' scores look less like classical music, but compared to Tangerine Dreams' synth music for movies it does look more like classical music.

Because most soundtracks are not based on the classical music of the period 1750-1820, but on the period 1880-today.

The only soundtrack I know that it's based on the classical period is this one: it sounds a lot like a slow movement of a piano concerto of the classical period.

Unless you don't want to support the idea that the classical music of the period 1880-today is not real classical music, that only the music of the classical period is real classical music, the comparision between John Williams an Mozart doesn't make sense.

The point is that if you consider the period 1880-today the music of John Williams sounds 100% classical, in my opinion.


Some people say that classical music is not a musical genre because it contains different styles. Of course if you want to reduce classical music to ONE unique style, you have to choose which of the many styles is classical music and expel the other ones from the category.
If the music of Mozart is classical, the one of Dvorak can not be classical.

The point is that the categorization doesn't work in this way. The stylistic evolution inside a genre of music is perfectly normal, and the purpose of keeping alive the definition is to understand that the different styles are historically connected between each others.
I mean, the romantic syle has not born from scratch. It's the result of an evolution of the classical style, which is an evolution of the baroque style.

Classical music is a musical genre simply because there is a continuum between the different styles.

[DavidW]

WAM you're completely obsessing over the soundtracks of old with gorgeous melodies playing nearly constantly throughout the movie.  Now soundtracks are incredibly minimalistic.  Instead of having recognizable themes they usually just provide some background texture or help create atmosphere, tension, emotion.  I was just rewatching Dune Part I in anticipation of today and it is completely different from like Jaws or Star Wars.  Brilliantly done, but just completely subjugated to the film.

These days they seem to really just be in service of the movie and not really its own thing unlike what it used to be like a few decades ago.

I also wonder for scores that are more pop, like Daft Punk's one for Tron Legacy, do you consider that classical music?  There are plenty of movies that interweave more popular songs or write in a very non-classical style.

[steve ridgway]

2001: A Space Odyssey has been a very popular movie over the years. I wonder how much it increased the audience for the music of Richard Strauss and Ligeti?



I don't know how many people watched Shutter Island. Ligeti was used for that too, along with Scelsi, Schnittke, Penderecki, Cage, Mahler and other 20th century composers.



Possibly "avant-garde" classical music will be picked up more for soundtracks in an attempt to find something that stands out as different, as the more obscure popular music gets rediscovered for commercials. If Suicide can be used for a perfume advert anything is possible  .

[DavidW]

2001: A Space Odyssey has been a very popular movie over the years. I wonder how much it increased the audience for the music of Richard Strauss and Ligeti?



I don't know how many people watched Shutter Island. Ligeti was used for that too, along with Scelsi, Schnittke, Penderecki, Cage, Mahler and other 20th century composers.



Possibly "avant-garde" classical music will be picked up more for soundtracks in an attempt to find something that stands out as different, as the more obscure popular music gets rediscovered for commercials. If Suicide can be used for a perfume advert anything is possible  .

2001 got me into Ligeti, The Shining got me into Bartok, and Shutter Island got me into Penderecki!  Worked for me.

[Karl Henning]

2001: A Space Odyssey has been a very popular movie over the years. I wonder how much it increased the audience for the music of Richard Strauss and Ligeti?



I don't know how many people watched Shutter Island. Ligeti was used for that too, along with Scelsi, Schnittke, Penderecki, Cage, Mahler and other 20th century composers.



Possibly "avant-garde" classical music will be picked up more for soundtracks in an attempt to find something that stands out as different, as the more obscure popular music gets rediscovered for commercials. If Suicide can be used for a perfume advert anything is possible  .

Both fabulous movies!

[71 dB]

WAM you're completely obsessing over the soundtracks of old with gorgeous melodies playing nearly constantly throughout the movie.

So do I. A lot of modern movie soundtracks are very boring to me. Just as many movies are for that matter. I'm getting old/nostalgic and I want my movie to be from the 70s and 80s with some exceptions. 

Now soundtracks are incredibly minimalistic.

Yeah. Two semi-dissonant chords plus some percussion and that's it. 

Instead of having recognizable themes they usually just provide some background texture or help create atmosphere, tension, emotion.  I was just rewatching Dune Part I in anticipation of today and it is completely different from like Jaws or Star Wars.  Brilliantly done, but just completely subjugated to the film.

I fould Dune Part I a "sepian borefest." I won't be wasting my time on part II.

[Karl Henning]

I fould Dune Part I a "sepian borefest." I won't be wasting my time on part II.

Interesting!

[SimonNZ]

@SimonNZ there is not an argument ad populum in my post, because I've only reported statistics. I've not written that they are the demonistration that Mozart has been the best composer and that John Williams is the best living composer.

The logical fallacy is in your last post: it's a strawman.


The only thing I want to say about the matter of popularity, is that if the people like something and the classical musicians ignore it, classical music will lose popularity.
The people who want to see the classical soundtracks expelled from classical music clearily want to destroy the popularity of classical music.

Well, I've never met or read a single person say "John Williams got me into classical", or any other film composer for that matter. I've never even heard or read anyone of old say "Maurice Jarre got me into classical". Whenever I hear of film being a gateway into classical it was from something like the use of Rach 2 in Brief Encounter, or the Ligeti and Bartok examples above.

My own feeling is that if you want to get modern teens into classical via film you should have scenes where, say, the Twilight crew go to see a Saariaho concert or a Debussy recital. Make it what the cool kids do.


As for the fiftieth repeat of your belief in programming film music: you've said everything you have to say about it, everyone has heard you, and you've persuaded nobody. Nor are you taking a moment to seriously consider any alternative to your one fixed view. Must there be another 90 pages of you repeating this with no goal other than liking the sound of your own voice? Go out into the non-classical world and try persuading the "real people" directly. Or write to orchestras directly and politely request they explain their thinking on these matters to you - they will all have had many conversations and meetings on this already.

If this thread has no chance of creating agreement but only of creating fruitless argument, should it even continue?

[Karl Henning]

As for the fiftieth repeat of your belief in programming film music: you've said everything you have to say about it, everyone has heard you, and you've persuaded nobody. Nor are you taking a moment to seriously consider any alternative to your one fixed view. Must there be another 90 pages of you repeating this with no goal other than liking the sound of your own voice?

QFT. "My mind is shut, why don't you want to talk to me?!"

[foxandpeng]

Well, I've never met or read a single person say "John Williams got me into classical", or any other film composer for that matter.

If this thread has no chance of creating agreement but only of creating fruitless argument, should it even continue?

I have, to be fair. Not that this negates the rest of the things that you've said...

[San Antone]

Well, I've never met or read a single person say "John Williams got me into classical", or any other film composer for that matter.

Films get people into other films; the music in films is secondary to the movie itself. People talk about scenes, or lines from movies they like, but I rarely hear people talk about the music. And to the extent they might, they certainly don't relate it to classical music, but other film music.

[SimonNZ]

Perhaps we should go back to the renaiming tie-in convention of 60s and 70s lps:

Penderecki's Symphony No.3 "Shutter Island"

Then again...perhaps not.

[W.A. Mozart]

WAM you're completely obsessing over the soundtracks of old with gorgeous melodies playing nearly constantly throughout the movie.  Now soundtracks are incredibly minimalistic.  Instead of having recognizable themes they usually just provide some background texture or help create atmosphere, tension, emotion.  I was just rewatching Dune Part I in anticipation of today and it is completely different from like Jaws or Star Wars.  Brilliantly done, but just completely subjugated to the film.

These days they seem to really just be in service of the movie and not really its own thing unlike what it used to be like a few decades ago.

I also wonder for scores that are more pop, like Daft Punk's one for Tron Legacy, do you consider that classical music?  There are plenty of movies that interweave more popular songs or write in a very non-classical style.

I think that soundtracks have always been mostly minimalistic. The point is that today we speak about the old soundtracks that have passed the test of time and we have completely forgotten the rest.

The modern soundtracks which will be remembered and played in the future are a minority, but do you think that if you take a random movie of the seventies its score will be of the same quality of Star Wars?

Perhaps what you want to say that in the modern days the great soundtracks have been completely suppressed and not that they are simply a minority. I don't know what to say, to be honest. I only know the great soundtracks of the nineties and I've never listened closely to the soundtracks composed for the films of the last 5-10 yeas.

I went in the subreddit "soundtracks" and I listened to some pieces posted by the users, and I found these two composed in 2023-2024.
Would you say that the pieces are not melody-driven? I think that for the fans of soundtracks there is still good material even today.
The second one is of Hans Zimmer and it shows that he is still able to write melodies. His soundtracks are not all in the style of Dune.

[DavidW]

I noticed that you conveniently side stepped what I said about Daft Punk since you know it unfortunately completely demolished your argument that soundtracks are classical music.